Jump to content

Permanent Trade Proposal Thread


dlbalr

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

Is he a stud centre though?  He had a hot streak to start the season but has cooled off considerably since then.  Since the calendar flipped to 2023, he's at 8-10-18 in 29 games.  That's a 51-point pace.  He'll beat that obviously with the hot start this season but the end result is likely to land somewhere in the 60-65-point range.  I don't think that qualifies as a stud centre.  I think that qualifies as a 1B type of player.  Still valuable, don't get me wrong, but he's not coming in and becoming an elite piece by any stretch.

 

To answer the original question, the Habs don't have all the cards here.  Winnipeg isn't taking 25 cents on the dollar to just get something for him.  If that's all they can get, they'll hold him and see if they get off to a good start to try to take a run next year.  Otherwise, he's trade bait at the deadline where they'd get a better return than a lowball offer from Montreal.

 

Fundamentally, the idea makes sense from Montreal's perspective.  The Habs get one RFA year on the contract which saves a tiny bit on the AAV and the potential to offset some salary in the short term.  But Winnipeg would have to get a quality piece that fits their roster (they have a lot of LD so Harris probably isn't all that desirable) for it to make sense.

 

Of course Winnipeg won't take 25 cents on the dollar. Just saying they don't have a ton of leverage here and it's worth exploring, if the cost is too high then you walk or wait.   Dubois scored 28 goals last year, will get about the same this year and hasn't entered his prime yet. Still only 24.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Of course Winnipeg won't take 25 cents on the dollar. Just saying they don't have a ton of leverage here and it's worth exploring, if the cost is too high then you walk or wait.   Dubois scored 28 goals last year, will get about the same this year and hasn't entered his prime yet. Still only 24.


This is my thinking as well. 
 

It’s worth exploring 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I get that you don’t want to give up much for PLD - I don’t either, given adding him next year isn’t going to get us into the playoffs anyways. 
 

But someone will be willing to give up something similar to what the isles gave up for Horvat. I get Horvat resigned with them, but the Canucks weren’t allowing teams to negotiate prior to a trade. I can see a team giving up a top prospect and a first rounder at a minimum -

more if the jets ray half the salary. So I think the jets can get more than Harris and and a cap anchor.

 

personally, I think if they can’t get good value for him, they may hang in and try to make a run while they still have Scheifele and Helleybuyck (their MVP), and Ehlers. The first two have two years left while Ehlers has three.  I can’t see Helleybucyck resigning in Winnipeg - but then I never thought Wheelers would either. If they win and have success, it may convince some of those guys to stay. They aren’t going to stay because their GM replaced PLD with Harris, and they certainly are not a better team by making that trade.

 

I’d rather wait it out and see if PLD wants to sign when h is a UFA, but it would depend on how much he wants. If he can get $10m, on the open market as a UFA, I’d pass. Bringing in Tavares is actually hurting the leafs in building a team, I certainly don’t want to make the same mistake, when we still have Caufield to resign, and hopefully Slafkovsky will earn a Pasternak type contract. I certainly wouldn’t pay that much for PLD. He’s a good player, who is happily sign to a deal in the $8m range, but I wouldn’t consider him to be a franchise player, that id go too much higher than Suzuki.

 

 


My starting position regarding PLD was simply to wait till he is UFA so I’m not hell bent on a trade. 
 

I do think PLD is closer to the Kane situation than Horvat. Islanders knew that there was an opportunity to sign Horvat. Any team knows that there isn’t an opportunity to sign PLD. 
 

The most that I can see in a trade for PLD is a first and a cap dump. 
 

Perhaps Calgary’s pick? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I am not saying you rush into a deal. I am saying you explore, see what the cost is and if it's too high then you wait. Hughes can afford to wait, Cheveldayoff can't wait too long or he will be disappointed. I don't think there is any way he gets a Horvat type return if he waits until the trade deadline next year as the Islanders knew they would have a chance to resign him. If teams think Dubois is going the UFA route for sure then they won't pay up the same way although at the trade deadline we have seen teams do stupid things. 

 

It's always hard to predict the following season. You never know when things comes together for a bunch of young guys.  The Devils had 63 points last year. 

The NJD have WAY more elite talent than us. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I say do not trade for him. Keep an eye on dach next year and evaluate his capabilities at centre. I'm not sure I want Dubois at all unless it's at a reasonable price. If aDach is a winger at the end of 24, then sign him, but if dach is a top 6 centre, then you say no thank you and look for team balance. Whatever that need is in 12 months.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

I say do not trade for him. Keep an eye on dach next year and evaluate his capabilities at centre. I'm not sure I want Dubois at all unless it's at a reasonable price. If aDach is a winger at the end of 24, then sign him, but if dach is a top 6 centre, then you say no thank you and look for team balance. Whatever that need is in 12 months.


At face value a trio of Suzuki, Dach, Dubois down the middle would be formidable. 
 

Dubois is a significant upgrade on Dvorak. 
 

Of course salary demands are part of the equation and if Dubois wants too much then it won’t work. Tavares wanted a payday more than he wanted the leafs. Dubois wants the Canadiens - seemingly badly. He may be a very proud Québécois 

 

Would a signed Monahan and Calgary’s pick get it done? Jets get a replacement for Dubois and a pick and it costs Montreal ~ nothing 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:


At face value a trio of Suzuki, Dach, Dubois down the middle would be formidable. 
 

Dubois is a significant upgrade on Dvorak. 
 

Of course salary demands are part of the equation and if Dubois wants too much then it won’t work. Tavares wanted a payday more than he wanted the leafs. Dubois wants the Canadiens - seemingly badly. He may be a very proud Québécois 

 

Would a signed Monahan and Calgary’s pick get it done? Jets get a replacement for Dubois and a pick and it costs Montreal ~ nothing 

Monohan has zero trade value until he shows he can be healthy for a full year, and unless it is for a very cheap contract - $1.5m tops, know way I’d risk signing him to a multi-year deal. As it is I don’t even know he gets $1.5m on a 1 yr deal. Physically he is extremely broken down  relative to his age.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

At face value a trio of Suzuki, Dach, Dubois down the middle would be formidable.

Yes. But if Dach continues to improve, we would likely be committing more than 30% of our cap space to C. Is that a good idea?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

Yes. But if Dach continues to improve, we would likely be committing more than 30% of our cap space to C. Is that a good idea?


Yes there could be salary cap issues to navigate but keeping Dvorak or Evans perhaps to play 3C while cheaper is nowhere near as good. 
 

If Dubois is a 60 point guy he isn’t getting paid 10 million. What is fair for that production? 7-8 million? 
 

7-8 million would support your argument because that is a lot to pay a third line centre. I get your argument because it has merit. 

 

I do believe that Dubois or any other move will be decided after the draft because we may get a really strong forward there. 
 

It seems to me that a large, fast, strong, skilled, Québécois player that wants to play for us is an extremely rare thing and we should look for ways to make it work. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:


Yes there could be salary cap issues to navigate but keeping Dvorak or Evans perhaps to play 3C while cheaper is nowhere near as good. 
 

If Dubois is a 60 point guy he isn’t getting paid 10 million. What is fair for that production? 7-8 million? 
 

7-8 million would support your argument because that is a lot to pay a third line centre. I get your argument because it has merit. 

 

I do believe that Dubois or any other move will be decided after the draft because we may get a really strong forward there. 
 

It seems to me that a large, fast, strong, skilled, Québécois player that wants to play for us is an extremely rare thing and we should look for ways to make it work. 


the “Québécois pure laine” factor is not a prime factor anymore

IMHO it is either Dach or PLD at center. With PLD, Dach would become a winger 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:


the “Québécois pure laine” factor is not a prime factor anymore

IMHO it is either Dach or PLD at center. With PLD, Dach would become a winger 


Dach transformed that first line so I would be okay with that. 
 

I do agree that for HuGo the Québécois thing is mute but for many Francophone fans, it’s still important. 
 

HuGo may not care but there would be backlash if a French “stud” wants to be a Hab and then gets turned down by the Canadiens (presuming reasonable contract demands). 
 

There doesn’t seem to be much interest in a trade to bring Dubois next season but signing him for free as a UFA in 24/25 works just fine. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, tomh009 said:

Yes. But if Dach continues to improve, we would likely be committing more than 30% of our cap space to C. Is that a good idea?

 

And might they be forced there with a different player?  Let's say the Habs win one of the two lotteries.  All of a sudden, there's another centre that's going to be expensive pretty quickly.  That could make it hard to afford Dubois.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

And might they be forced there with a different player?  Let's say the Habs win one of the two lotteries.  All of a sudden, there's another centre that's going to be expensive pretty quickly.  That could make it hard to afford Dubois.

 

What happens at the draft will certainly be a factor in whether their interest in Dubois increases or decreases. If they get lucky and move up and are able to grab one of the top centers then their interest will likely diminish. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

It didn't seem that way last year. 

They had a couple of #1 overall picks in Hughes and Hischier, who were still in the development process - do we have anyone comparable? They also had lousy goaltending and an injured Hamilton in his first year. I don’t see any comparable on the blueline YET, even if we have a healthy Caufield next year.

 

on top of that, even losing Drouin and Byron, we still have a lot of wasted cap space that limits our options to improve significantly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dlbalr said:

 

And might they be forced there with a different player?  Let's say the Habs win one of the two lotteries.  All of a sudden, there's another centre that's going to be expensive pretty quickly.  That could make it hard to afford Dubois.

Yep. We know Caufield is getting a big payday. Dach could also have a big year.  He’s signed for 3 more years, but what I’d he turns out to be better than PLD?

 

id also be reluctant on giving up our future first, or Calgary’s future first (can’t remember if that is actually Calgary’s, or will also be Florida’s).

 

If Calgary doesn’t dump Sutter, they maybe a team that declines fast, having just signed a couple of older players to high pick deals and having other keys coming up for contracts the next couple of years.

 

IMO, next year’s a let’s see who  kids are processing year and hopefully they show that they are ready and we should add complementary pieces for 2024-25. Boston, Tampa will be older, and Toronto  more cap challenged from what Matthews and Marner’s next deals

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

They had a couple of #1 overall picks in Hughes and Hischier, who were still in the development process - do we have anyone comparable? They also had lousy goaltending and an injured Hamilton in his first year. I don’t see any comparable on the blueline YET, even if we have a healthy Caufield next year.

 

on top of that, even losing Drouin and Byron, we still have a lot of wasted cap space that limits our options to improve significantly.

 

Yes, Hughes has finally busted out this year. Caulfield was on pace for 45 goals before his injury. Hischier has finally scored 30, the Devils have come along nicely.  My point was; did anyone here think New Jersey would go from 63 to 100+ points this year?   Could Suzuki and Dach really bust out next year?  What about Slafkovsky?   The Habs have had a ton of injuries this year.  Not saying they will be a contender for the playoffs next year.  Just saying it's way too early to write them off. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Yes, Hughes has finally busted out this year. Caulfield was on pace for 45 goals before his injury. Hischier has finally scored 30, the Devils have come along nicely.  My point was; did anyone here think New Jersey would go from 63 to 100+ points this year?   Could Suzuki and Dach really bust out next year?  What about Slafkovsky?   The Habs have had a ton of injuries this year.  Not saying they will be a contender for the playoffs next year.  Just saying it's way too early to write them off. 

 

Seeing how well this team plays under Marty with a half AHL lineup, I'm not putting the possibility of a wildcard push next year out of the question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:


My starting position regarding PLD was simply to wait till he is UFA so I’m not hell bent on a trade. 
 

I do think PLD is closer to the Kane situation than Horvat. Islanders knew that there was an opportunity to sign Horvat. Any team knows that there isn’t an opportunity to sign PLD. 
 

The most that I can see in a trade for PLD is a first and a cap dump. 
 

Perhaps Calgary’s pick? 

We could try that. But I can’t see the jets even considering a first and a cap dump as a viable option.  A trade like that signals they are blowing things up, which I can’t see them doing that and I think HAVE to be in a win now mode for the following reasons:

- First Scheifele and their best player - Helleybuyck are UFA’s the following year.  They need to at least resign their MVP. Can’t see them sending the right message to them by getting a draft pick and lump of coal that just eats cap space.

-they are cap crunched, and if they took a bad salary back, they really can’t replace PLD. I think they still have Wheeler’s contract for another year or two.

 

Only way I see them trading PLD to us if they get a d prospect and a guy like Dach, and they’d probably want Guhle, but settle on a guy like Harris. That’s too high of a price to pay for a guy that will be a UFA in a year.

 

keep in mind the devils gambled and gave up a lot for Meier, with no guarantees that he will reign. Friedman also was speculating that if they can’t resign Meier to a cheaper long term deal, they may not qualify his $10M RFA contract, or just keep him for one year. Personally, I can’t see them not requalifying if they can’t resign him to a cheaper long term deal, but with the additional condional pick, that’s a hell of a lot to give up for two years of control. PLD will get the jets something closer to what the sharks got, that than what’s being proposed here. NO one is going to do us a favour in taking a bum like Armia. 
 

on top of that I think you need to factor in where the jets are relative to the Sharks. One team is rebuilding, the other is trying to win.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gotta look at this from Winnipeg’s perspective.  They have PLD for one more year.  The question for Winnipeg is how do they get a return out of that.  
 

Best return would be this off season.  Whoever gets him will pay full value as they will have him for a full season and possibly be able to flip him at the deadline.  Next season PLD is a pure rental for any team that’s not Montreal, and if Winnipeg don’t trade him, they will lose him for nothing.  
 

i would be surprised if Montreal trades for him this off-season.  He’ll be cheaper next season or free during free agency, not including his contract of course.  I wouldn’t be overly shocked if his value next year is a 2nd and/or a decent prospect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting discussion in this thread lately.

 

On 3/28/2023 at 10:45 AM, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

What happens at the draft will certainly be a factor in whether their interest in Dubois increases or decreases. If they get lucky and move up and are able to grab one of the top centers then their interest will likely diminish. 

 

Obviously we should see whether we bag a high-ceiling C at the draft before considering any moves relating to PLD. Indeed, we appear to be in the pole position here - there is no need to rush things at all.

 

At the same time, some fans affect an attitude of indifference about Dubois - a big, strong, fast, 70-point C just entering his prime - saying things like “we already have Dach,” or “he’s a problem child and I don’t want him,” or, more realistically, “he will command a big cap hit.”

 

I love Dach, but we don’t yet know for certain that he will prove to be a healthy, consistent top-6 C in the same league as PLD. And even if he is a bona-ride #2C, which I suspect he is, I can’t see why we wouldn’t want a Suze-PLD-Dach configuration down the middle. That is Cup-calibre depth at C. Praise God. And we can always move Dach to W if we want to spread things around. What’s not to like?

 

As for cap considerations, I dunno. I’ve always been a “get the guy and sort out the cap later” type. Toronto can afford Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Nylander, and Reilly. Surely we can afford Suzuki, PLD and Dach FFS 🤷‍♂️

 

On 3/28/2023 at 11:46 AM, Neech said:

 

Seeing how well this team plays under Marty with a half AHL lineup, I'm not putting the possibility of a wildcard push next year out of the question.

 

I tend to agree. A lot will depend on goaltending, though - and on staying healthy. 

 

On 4/4/2023 at 3:55 PM, Prime Minister Koivu said:


Who would be a good target?

 

Dubois?

 

I’m not super crazy about the idea of making a habit of “Dach” style trades. There is a certain danger of assuming that, because you hit a home run last time, you can do it again. There are a lot of teams out there that talk about finding “under-valued” young players, and there are only so many Kirby Dachs to go around. Usually if a team is giving up on a 22-year-old, it’s for a valid reason. It also has a faint whiff of the classic trap of trying to accelerate a rebuild.

 

Anyhow, it will all depend on the players involved - both the player we get, and the draft pick we’re foregoing. If it does happen, it will probably be someone we’re not aware of rather than a big name like Dubois.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

At the same time, some fans affect an attitude of indifference about Dubois - a big, strong, fast, 70-point C just entering his prime - saying things like “we already have Dach,” or “he’s a problem child and I don’t want him,” or, more realistically, “he will command a big cap hit.”

 

Dubois isn't a 70-point C though.  His career high is 61 and the only reason he got there this season was the hot start.  It's crunch time for Winnipeg and he has responded with nine points in his last 20 games at the time it matters most with questions popping up about his compete level.  My concern with him is that he isn't as good as he's hyped up to be and not worth the contract he's bound to command based on that unsustained hot start.  He'd make this team better, no doubt, but he isn't as good as some are hyping him up to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

Dubois isn't a 70-point C though.  His career high is 61 and the only reason he got there this season was the hot start.  It's crunch time for Winnipeg and he has responded with nine points in his last 20 games at the time it matters most with questions popping up about his compete level.  My concern with him is that he isn't as good as he's hyped up to be and not worth the contract he's bound to command based on that unsustained hot start.  He'd make this team better, no doubt, but he isn't as good as some are hyping him up to be.

 

That’s fair enough; our approach should be dictated by our assessment of the player, yes, and his contract should be within reason for the type of player he is. All the more reason to play a waiting game, perhaps. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

My concern with him is that he isn't as good as he's hyped up to be and not worth the contract he's bound to command based on that unsustained hot start.  He'd make this team better, no doubt, but he isn't as good as some are hyping him up to be.

So you think whoever trades for and resigns him will pay too much?

 

Big young french kid who says he wants to come home, Hughes would have to be tempted.

 

How much will he likely resign for? And am sure would ask for 8 years. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...