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Permanent Trade Proposal Thread


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9 hours ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

What the hell does Team Canada have to do with anything?!

 

it compares the 2 player's value to a team while they are playing on the same team, to put in perspective how much we lose Vs what we gained in straight up swap, did I really have to explain that?

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7 minutes ago, Link67 said:

 

it compares the 2 player's value to a team while they are playing on the same team, to put in perspective how much we lose Vs what we gained in straight up swap, did I really have to explain that?

Personally, I would not use players' value to Team Canada  in order to compare them.

It doesn't represent NHL teams at all.
 

For example, Team Canada is build in a way that it doesn't require you to dress that many puck moving dmen as pretty much 75% of forwards are good/awesome/stupid good at it.

Same with the usage of Subban.  Doesn't reaaaaally need him when every pair already include a puck moving dmen. Put Subban on USA's roster and see if they keep Erik Johnson or Matt Niskanen.

 

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9 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

Personally, I would not use players' value to Team Canada  in order to compare them.

It doesn't represent NHL teams at all.
 

For example, Team Canada is build in a way that it doesn't require you to dress that many puck moving dmen as pretty much 75% of forwards are good/awesome/stupid good at it.

Same with the usage of Subban.  Doesn't reaaaaally need him when every pair already include a puck moving dmen. Put Subban on USA's roster and see if they keep Erik Johnson or Matt Niskanen.

 

 

I think Link does have a point here. Puck moving defenseman have nothing to do with it really.

 

Weber is used on the top pairing for team Canada that has a laundry list of elite top pairing defenseman. Giroux is used as a fourth line player on team Canada that has a laundry list of elite forwards. I do love how Subban was brought up again though.

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34 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

Personally, I would not use players' value to Team Canada  in order to compare them.

It doesn't represent NHL teams at all.
 

For example, Team Canada is build in a way that it doesn't require you to dress that many puck moving dmen as pretty much 75% of forwards are good/awesome/stupid good at it.

Same with the usage of Subban.  Doesn't reaaaaally need him when every pair already include a puck moving dmen. Put Subban on USA's roster and see if they keep Erik Johnson or Matt Niskanen.

 

 

I disagree, National teams are the best of the best, in comparison to an NHL team, a Natonal team would be a decade long Dynasty in the NHL, you would be comparing the best with the best playing on the same team. They are still the same players, but how good they are is showcased by how high on these super teams they still rank, are you a top guy on an NHL team AND a top guy on Team Canada? Then you are a special player among the very best at your position no ifs ands or buts about it. If one player on the same team is a top Dman, logs the most minutes, plays all situations and is playing a major role for that team. While the other is a 4th line center on the team, plays a very limited role and is at times not even dressed, Would you trade these players 1 for 1? Of course you wouldn't, their role and value to that team is very different, why would you trade a top Dman for a bottom 6 Center? Do you think Team Canada would ever consider scratching Shea Weber and dressing Claude Giroux?

 

Then why the heck would we trade Shea Weber straight up for Claude Giroux. 

 

On a side note, i'm not entirely opposed to trading for Giroux, for the right price and some salary retention, but it Cannot and Will not cost us Shea Weber. Unless we are actively trying to get worse in a major way, then just go for it.

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1 hour ago, JoeLassister said:

Personally, I would not use players' value to Team Canada  in order to compare them.

It doesn't represent NHL teams at all.
 

For example, Team Canada is build in a way that it doesn't require you to dress that many puck moving dmen as pretty much 75% of forwards are good/awesome/stupid good at it.

Same with the usage of Subban.  Doesn't reaaaaally need him when every pair already include a puck moving dmen. Put Subban on USA's roster and see if they keep Erik Johnson or Matt Niskanen.

 

 

Plus it's just the opinion of one coaching staff and there are three HOFers in front of Giroux on Team Canada.

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1 hour ago, Link67 said:

 

it compares the 2 player's value to a team while they are playing on the same team, to put in perspective how much we lose Vs what we gained in straight up swap, did I really have to explain that?

 

Team Canada management is not infallible. The team selections aren't always correct. 

 

Yes, They won the olympics, but should Chris Kunitz have been on the team over some of the players they left at home.  Would you trade Tyler Seguin for Chris Kunitz cause one was on Team Canada 2014 and the other wasn't?  If your answer is no, then it just proves my point.  The team selection does not automatically prove one player is better than another. 

 

We've seen this throughout many Team Canada team selections,... they aren't 100% the best players.  Sometimes they pick the wrong guys.  Sometimes a guy is in there for chemistry reasons, etc... 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Commandant said:

 

Team Canada management is not infallible. The team selections aren't always correct. 

 

Not saying it is, but if both players are on the team and both have varying roles does it not have a bearing on how good/valuable they are as players?

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Just now, Link67 said:

 

Not saying it is, but if both players are on the team and both have varying roles does it not have a bearing on how good/valuable they are as players?

 

Would you trade Chris Kunitz for Tyler Seguin. 

 

One was on the 2014 team in a prominent role with Sidney Crosby, and one wasn't on the roster.

 

If your answer is no, then you've just shown that being on Team Canada, and being used in a prominent role, doesn't make you a better player than someone not on the team, or in the press box. 

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Of course Not, but that is also a very specific situation which does not often occur, that was a chemistry choice, based on Sidney's history with Kunitz. Seguin was young at the time, had just had an incredible season, but they were in no hurry to bring him in due to a lack of experience. Now it is easy to see Seguin even then was a more talented player than Kunitz, but Kunitz had a "Role" to play, and lucky for him was part of a specific strategy to play with Crosby. 

 

Speaking as recently as 2016 though, at the world cup, Giroux played primarily in a limited role along side Matt Duchene and Joe Thornton on Canada's 4th line. Answer me this, would you trade Shea Weber straight up for any one of the players on that bottom line? If the answer is no, then you will see a recent example of how a top pair team Canada Dman is worth more than a 4th line Team Canada forward, in a vast majority of cases anyway.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Scott462 said:

 

I think Link does have a point here. Puck moving defenseman have nothing to do with it really.

 

Weber is used on the top pairing for team Canada that has a laundry list of elite top pairing defenseman. Giroux is used as a fourth line player on team Canada that has a laundry list of elite forwards. I do love how Subban was brought up again though.

My point is not about puck moving dmen or positions at all, it's about how Team Canada is a terrible example to compare player's worth to a team.

 

Teams like  Slovakia or Czech Republic are much more built like real NHL teams.

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4 hours ago, Link67 said:

Of course Not, but that is also a very specific situation which does not often occur, that was a chemistry choice, based on Sidney's history with Kunitz. Seguin was young at the time, had just had an incredible season, but they were in no hurry to bring him in due to a lack of experience. Now it is easy to see Seguin even then was a more talented player than Kunitz, but Kunitz had a "Role" to play, and lucky for him was part of a specific strategy to play with Crosby. 

 

Speaking as recently as 2016 though, at the world cup, Giroux played primarily in a limited role along side Matt Duchene and Joe Thornton on Canada's 4th line. Answer me this, would you trade Shea Weber straight up for any one of the players on that bottom line? If the answer is no, then you will see a recent example of how a top pair team Canada Dman is worth more than a 4th line Team Canada forward, in a vast majority of cases anyway.

 

 

 

Canada has a long history of questionable choices..... nearly every team has one. 

 

Brenden Morrow in 2010. 

Rob Zamnur, Kirk Maltby, Kris Draper, Bryan McCabe 

 

Its not just a kunitz thing.  Its sometimes hockey people make strange decisions.  So being on team canada, or even being used prominently is not the be all and end all of talent evaluation. 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

Canada has a long history of questionable choices..... nearly every team has one. 

 

Brenden Morrow in 2010. 

Rob Zamnur, Kirk Maltby, Kris Draper, Bryan McCabe 

 

Its not just a kunitz thing.  Its sometimes hockey people make strange decisions.  So being on team canada, or even being used prominently is not the be all and end all of talent evaluation. 

Or how how about not picking the rookie Crosby in 2006 on a team needing offence.

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Nick Holden from the Rangers is available apparently. He's a mobile D with good offensive numbers but Ranges want a centre but maybe something could be worked out.  What could be offered from this roster.  Obviously we couldn't send them a centre.

 

 

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Giroux (2 mil per season retained) for Pleks, 2nd Round Pick, Prospect.

 

Pacs - Giroux - Drouin

Lek - Galchenyuk - Gallagher

Byron - Danault - Hemsky

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1 hour ago, TheDriveFor25 said:

Giroux (2 mil per season retained) for Pleks, 2nd Round Pick, Prospect.

 

Pacs - Giroux - Drouin

Lek - Galchenyuk - Gallagher

Byron - Danault - Hemsky

For the number of years he's still got left and what he brings, it's still a stupid trade.  Philly might actually go for it to unload that horrible contract.  

 

It would probably make the French media happy, even though giroux isn't a Quebecer - at least he's got a French name.  

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Philly just won't even sniffle at that one, there will be some bad contracts involved in such a trade, but it would be more likely Shaw than Plekanec. Because of his age and his style, Shaw would entice them more, we would need to throw in either a prospect and a pick, or a high pick with him to even start the foundation to that trade. Philly doesn't need another center coming back necessarily with Nolan Patrick in the fold. What they need is capspace and a team with the capacity to take Giroux while saving them loads of cap. We are that dance partner, We could save them 3 - 4 mill on the cap, and be able to take Giroux depending on if they decide to retain a million or so of his current salary.

 

Giroux would be a nice pick up depending on what we have to give to get him, we still have to remain realistic though, Philly won't just take any old thing to get rid of him, but I doubt it would cost a top forward to get it done. Which is precisely why we should be circling this situation closely, because we have no top forwards to give, but we do have an accommodating amount of cap space to help a team in need of some relief with an expensive player. *Enter Jaws Theme Here*

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57 minutes ago, Link67 said:

Philly just won't even sniffle at that one, there will be some bad contracts involved in such a trade, but it would be more likely Shaw than Plekanec. Because of his age and his style, Shaw would entice them more, we would need to throw in either a prospect and a pick, or a high pick with him to even start the foundation to that trade. Philly doesn't need another center coming back necessarily with Nolan Patrick in the fold. What they need is capspace and a team with the capacity to take Giroux while saving them loads of cap. We are that dance partner, We could save them 3 - 4 mill on the cap, and be able to take Giroux depending on if they decide to retain a million or so of his current salary.

 

Giroux would be a nice pick up depending on what we have to give to get him, we still have to remain realistic though, Philly won't just take any old thing to get rid of him, but I doubt it would cost a top forward to get it done. Which is precisely why we should be circling this situation closely, because we have no top forwards to give, but we do have an accommodating amount of cap space to help a team in need of some relief with an expensive player. *Enter Jaws Theme Here*

And the jaws theme would be for us getting eaten up on that trade.  Why would Philly want another bad overpaying/too long term contract with th Shaw???  I could actually see them taking pleks and draft picks to dump Giroux, since this is pleks last year.  Giroux is making over $3m more than he's worth and even than, he's signed for at least 2 years longer than anyone would want him. 

 

Having said all that, I could see philly hanging on too Giroux this year, to protect patrick and than doing everything possible to dump him next year. Hextall has been dumping a lot of holgroms contracts.

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37 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

And the jaws theme would be for us getting eaten up on that trade.  Why would Philly want another bad overpaying/too long term contract with th Shaw???  I could actually see them taking pleks and draft picks to dump Giroux, since this is pleks last year.  Giroux is making over $3m more than he's worth and even than, he's signed for at least 2 years longer than anyone would want him. 

 

Having said all that, I could see philly hanging on too Giroux this year, to protect patrick and than doing everything possible to dump him next year. Hextall has been dumping a lot of holgroms contracts.

 

The Jaws theme would have nothing to do with us getting eaten up in a trade for Giroux that involves Shaw, Plekanec, Picks or anything of the sort.

 

Come on man, I get he is overpaid but by 3 million? Jesus, he had more points than everyone except Pacioretty on this team last year from a non playoff team. So if his 58 points last year are worth only 5 million in your opinion, why would we have given Radulov 6.5mill+ for his 53 points?

 

When having a discussion it is always important to try and make sure your foot does not end up in your mouth. Giroux would be an expensive, yet still, a #1 center here, who fits our needs and enters the same age group as most of the leaders on this team trying to get a championship out of the next several seasons. He would also be brought in relatively cost effectively in a trade because of his cap hit, if not he can stay in Philly. We don't have to take him but if the price is right and were one of the only teams who can accommodate his salary then it needs to be looked at very closely

 

Giroux represents the top Buy Low option for a #1 Center out there right now, and you want to walk away from the table because you think he is finished at 29 and only worth 5 million? Worse yet, you think we still get eaten in the trade if we manage to send Plekanec or Shaw off in the deal, are you even hearing yourself?

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On 7/29/2017 at 1:25 PM, TheDriveFor25 said:

Giroux (2 mil per season retained) for Pleks, 2nd Round Pick, Prospect.

 

Pacs - Giroux - Drouin

Lek - Galchenyuk - Gallagher

Byron - Danault - Hemsky

 

I could actually talk myself into sort of believing in that top 9.

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45 minutes ago, Neech said:

 

I could actually talk myself into sort of believing in that top 9.

 

Don't have to talk too long, that is actually quite a nice top 9, it certainly beats anyone of our top 9s this century.

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To Philly: Lehkonen, Lindgren and a 1st

 

To Montreal: Giroux (some salary retained)

 

 

Or

 

 

To Vancouver:  Plekanec, Scherbak and a 2nd

 

To Montreal: The Sedins 

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