Trizzak Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 How did this thread turn into a Markov and Diaz discussion? This is for trade proposals... Consider it discussion on who is most important to the team, and conversely who everyone would want traded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I originally suggested Diaz being traded in a package when Beaulieu was ready, not just whenever. If Beaulieu needs another year in the AHL hey that's fine, we can be patient. The notion of Subban not being a strong defensive defenceman is wrong and most stats, especially advanced, support him as bring good in his zone. Our scoring on the backend was top I the NHL. Defensively it could be better but if you watch other teams in the league, we were damn good. I'd put our second pair up against anyone in the league. Also will add I believe Tinordi is ready and once Emelin is ready, we will see a blueliner moved. Tinordi will be playing for Montreal this year without a doubt. His size is a major asset and something we're lacking on the back end. If he sticks to the basics and uses his size; Tinordi will see his name on the roster sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Tinordi will be playing for Montreal this year without a doubt. His size is a major asset and something we're lacking on the back end. If he sticks to the basics and uses his size; Tinordi will see his name on the roster sheet. I wouldnt say Tinordi is a lock. I still think 1 more year with big minutes and a bit weaker opposition in Hamilton might be better for him? Pateryn has plenty of size and is more experianced, Nygren has more experiance vs men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I wouldnt say Tinordi is a lock. I still think 1 more year with big minutes and a bit weaker opposition in Hamilton might be better for him? Pateryn has plenty of size and is more experianced, Nygren has more experiance vs men. Why waste a year when he seems to be ready for the NHL today? It would take a regression for him to not make the roster. He proved he could play NHL playoff hockey without showing his full potential. And if he doesn't make the team, Montreal has Bouillon and Drewskie for the third pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Why waste a year when he seems to be ready for the NHL today? It would take a regression for him to not make the roster. He proved he could play NHL playoff hockey without showing his full potential. And if he doesn't make the team, Montreal has Bouillon and Drewskie for the third pair. Waste a year? playing 25minutes in AHL and being a team leader vs 12-13minutes against bottom six opponents in NHL, which is better? I don't know, but basically playing twice as much would seem an OK way to develop and also the Bulldog rookies and youth would benefit from his leadership. I would guess Drewiske will be in AHL full time mentoring the young players, unless are multiple injuries at d. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I think you're being hard on Diaz here - it kind of reminds me of attitudes about Streit before we let him walk. Despite his impressive point totals he was always too soft or not good enough in his own end, and he went on to be very successful elswhere. Now Diaz hasn't yet accomplished what Streit has, and may not turn out to be that caliber of player, but he's young for a defenseman and is still improving year to year. Oy! I wasn't being hard on Diaz at all, just calling a spade a spade. Do you think he's all-star quality? Will he dominate games? Or is he the kind of player any team would like to have on their "squad." That's all I'm saying - not that he sucks or isn't good enough or etc ad nauseum. He's a solid squad player. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Oy! I wasn't being hard on Diaz at all, just calling a spade a spade. Do you think he's all-star quality? Will he dominate games? Or is he the kind of player any team would like to have on their "squad." That's all I'm saying - not that he sucks or isn't good enough or etc ad nauseum. He's a solid squad player. Period. You're also making hasty judgments about a player who hasn't been in the league very long and who has shown marked improvement with each year. I agree that he probably won't be making all-star teams, but I and most others would have said that before Streit left and we were proven wrong. As a secondary offensive threat from the blueline I wouldn't understate his importance. Maybe it's the use of 'squad player', which in your first post sounded like a guy who just fills up a spot on the squad, but here seems more like someone any team would take on their squad. I personally think Diaz is good enough to be a first line powerplay quarterback on a bad team, and we're very fortunate to have him on our second unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 You're also making hasty judgments about a player who hasn't been in the league very long and who has shown marked improvement with each year. I agree that he probably won't be making all-star teams, but I and most others would have said that before Streit left and we were proven wrong. As a secondary offensive threat from the blueline I wouldn't understate his importance. Maybe it's the use of 'squad player', which in your first post sounded like a guy who just fills up a spot on the squad, but here seems more like someone any team would take on their squad. I personally think Diaz is good enough to be a first line powerplay quarterback on a bad team, and we're very fortunate to have him on our second unit. Diaz is is set to become an UFA at the end of this season. I doubt Montreal is looking to resign him, even though he would come at a reasonable price. A trade would make more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Waste a year? playing 25minutes in AHL and being a team leader vs 12-13minutes against bottom six opponents in NHL, which is better? I don't know, but basically playing twice as much would seem an OK way to develop and also the Bulldog rookies and youth would benefit from his leadership. I would guess Drewiske will be in AHL full time mentoring the young players, unless are multiple injuries at d. It is always better to learn in the NHL against NHL quality opponents than anything inferior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 It is always better to learn in the NHL against NHL quality opponents than anything inferior. Not so sure about this. That isn't how Detroit does it, for instance; traditionally they let young guys marinade in the minors for quite a while. In fact, it's a common phenomenon that a young player "wears out his welcome" in a city by going through his growing pains at the NHL level. Ribeiro and O'Byrne both suffered this fate with us, for instance. Latendress was probably ruined by being brought up too early, and many people think Price would have benefitted from more time in the minors, learning to cope with downs as well as ups. The proposition that young players are better off learning at the NHL level seems to be of a piece with the mindset that expresses premature confidence in the ability of raw rookies to eat up major minutes and be strong contributors over an 82-game season. It's simplistic and unduly optimistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 It is always better to learn in the NHL against NHL quality opponents than anything inferior. i agree with Mr Cucumber. And it likely is hard to find a player who, to his detriment, spent too much time in AHL? But things can be so variable, strength/needs of NHL roster, attitude of prospect as well as management's master plan, etc chances are Tinordi will fill in for Yemelin in October and may even push the Cube to the pressbox after that; but if he was kept in AHL till after the new year i dont think would hurt his develoment one bit and would be a big plus for Nygren, Dietz, Ellis, Beaulieu, Pateryn to be able to partner up with him.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 If a guy is *dominating* for an extended period at the AHL level, then he needs to be brought up so he can continue his progression. Otherwise, the AHL never hurt anybody - on their wallets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Not so sure about this. That isn't how Detroit does it, for instance; traditionally they let young guys marinade in the minors for quite a while. In fact, it's a common phenomenon that a young player "wears out his welcome" in a city by going through his growing pains at the NHL level. Ribeiro and O'Byrne both suffered this fate with us, for instance. Latendress was probably ruined by being brought up too early, and many people think Price would have benefitted from more time in the minors, learning to cope with downs as well as ups. The proposition that young players are better off learning at the NHL level seems to be of a piece with the mindset that expresses premature confidence in the ability of raw rookies to eat up major minutes and be strong contributors over an 82-game season. It's simplistic and unduly optimistic. Latendresse wasn't ruined by being up too early. His minutes were sheltered. He has admitted in interviews his issue was an ego problem. I guess you could argue that being in the AHL humbles a player but that's about it. If Latendresse came to Montreal after another team he probably still might have had an ego problem. Ribeiro didn't suffer any fate. Do people forget he was one of the best rookies in 03-04? He has always had great numbers. The thing about "Detroit does it" is Detroit has been pretty average when it comes to prospects and all of those players would have spent time in the AHL anyway. When was the last time Detroit had a prospect that shouldn't spend any AHL time? Too often, Montreal fans think that the departure of players under 25 is unique to their team. It isn't. All players adapt to the NHL differently. However, there have been examples of players who never learned to play NHL level because they played in the AHL too long. A great example is Alexandre Giroux. Giroux was drafted in 1999 and started having high scoring numbers in the AHL in 2003-2004. However New York didn't have space for him. He was traded to Washington and they too couldn't find room for him. When he finally started getting more NHL games he couldn't adjust to the speed and strength of the game. He was too used to the AHL. Washington would send him down and he'd be one of the best scorers in the league. Then he'd go up to the NHL and just couldn't adapt. That's why you learn best in the NHL. Would you send Alex Galchenyuk down next season if he has a tough 10 games so he could "dominate the AHL" or would you let him get his bearings in the NHL against NHL competition? You never send an NHL ready player to the AHL. Only a player not ready for the NHL. That was my original point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Totally with MoLG there. Tinordi prove us last season that he was NHL ready. Sure he will still make some rookie mistakes from time to time, but he would do them anyway one year later if he was to spend another season down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Latendresse wasn't ruined by being up too early. His minutes were sheltered. He has admitted in interviews his issue was an ego problem. I guess you could argue that being in the AHL humbles a player but that's about it. If Latendresse came to Montreal after another team he probably still might have had an ego problem. Ribeiro didn't suffer any fate. Do people forget he was one of the best rookies in 03-04? He has always had great numbers. The thing about "Detroit does it" is Detroit has been pretty average when it comes to prospects and all of those players would have spent time in the AHL anyway. When was the last time Detroit had a prospect that shouldn't spend any AHL time? Too often, Montreal fans think that the departure of players under 25 is unique to their team. It isn't. All players adapt to the NHL differently. However, there have been examples of players who never learned to play NHL level because they played in the AHL too long. A great example is Alexandre Giroux. Giroux was drafted in 1999 and started having high scoring numbers in the AHL in 2003-2004. However New York didn't have space for him. He was traded to Washington and they too couldn't find room for him. When he finally started getting more NHL games he couldn't adjust to the speed and strength of the game. He was too used to the AHL. Washington would send him down and he'd be one of the best scorers in the league. Then he'd go up to the NHL and just couldn't adapt. That's why you learn best in the NHL. Would you send Alex Galchenyuk down next season if he has a tough 10 games so he could "dominate the AHL" or would you let him get his bearings in the NHL against NHL competition? You never send an NHL ready player to the AHL. Only a player not ready for the NHL. That was my original point. I was just looking his stats . He lit it up in the AHL. I wouldn't even say he started getting playing time in the nhl. He has a combined 48 nhl games. Why are teams not after this guy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Totally with MoLG there. Tinordi prove us last season that he was NHL ready. Sure he will still make some rookie mistakes from time to time, but he would do them anyway one year later if he was to spend another season down. Tinordi showed he was fine as a #6 or 7 d-man playing 11-12minutes/game against 3rd/4th lines. Is that NHL ready, on the right track; but? He did not dominate AHL, was he even an AHL all-star, don't think so? rookie of year, no. But do the Habs need a Tinordi-type d-man, for sure; but is that a reason to rush him? could be good enough reason, I don't know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Tinordi was never going to be an All-Star. He's a defensive defenceman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Tinordi showed he was fine as a #6 or 7 d-man playing 11-12minutes/game against 3rd/4th lines. Is that NHL ready, on the right track; but? He did not dominate AHL, was he even an AHL all-star, don't think so? rookie of year, no. But do the Habs need a Tinordi-type d-man, for sure; but is that a reason to rush him? could be good enough reason, I don't know? Did you ever hear of a dman who went straight from the AHL to a NHL 20+minutes role against top lines ? I didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Did you ever hear of a dman who went straight from the AHL to a NHL 20+minutes role against top lines ? I didn't. I know this is still way off thread topic, but might as well beat dead horse, Jonus Brodin and Justin Shultz did that just last year, cept without the AHL part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I know this is still way off thread topic, but might as well beat dead horse, Jonus Brodin and Justin Shultz did that just last year, cept without the AHL part. Sure it's easier to do with the Oilers. Props to Brodin though. He looked like a futur stud out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Tinordi has 13 NHL games under his belt. Yeah, he looked decent (not great). But that is simply too small a sample from which to anoint him as "NHL ready" - let alone ready to eat up Emelin's minutes. I've seen too many rookies "look good" for limited spurts of time and then evaporate. Really, though, it's not Tinordi's having a spot on the team that troubles me - you do have to break young guys in, after all - it's more the idea that he can tide us over until Emelin comes back. Now if he does this and succeeds, that'll be great. I'm just saying that it's an extremely optimistic and therefore unlikely scenario. But if we're just talking about Tinordi playing sheltered minutes and being eased in, rather than thrown into the deep end, then I'm not gonna argue with that. As for "letting young players learn from their mistakes" at the NHL level, I hear this from fans all the time - and I don't believe that most of them actually mean what they say. We'll see how people feel if he goes through a bad patch and starts getting beaten on the outside or costing us goals in a tight playoff race. Past experience shows that at that point 99% of the fan base will turn on him and declare him a total failure, all the while pumping the tires of whichever totally-unproven rookie catches their eye next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I don't count on only one guy to "eat up" Emelin's minutes. It has to be a group effort. Everyone in the 2nd and 3rd pairs, especially Bouillon and Tinordi, will have to step up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted August 14, 2013 Author Share Posted August 14, 2013 So, how about them trade proposals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Desharnais for a 2nd pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I haven't been posting trade proposals because all my trade proposals have Desharnais in them... Desharnais for Ryan Malone and a 3rd. Desharnais for Lee Stempniak and Lance Bouma. Desharnais for Joel Ward and a 3rd. I am unoriginal. I want no one else on the team traded except Diaz, and I can live with Diaz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.