GDT Habs @ Vancouver, March 10 22:00

[Habsy]

Say the team goes on a bit of a run? And ruins a shot at a lottery pick. At what point do you consider trading a 1st to possibly address a need?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Habs29, in writing 'Bob's your uncle' I was using the expression idiomatically, not as a backhanded way of praising Bob.

You're absolutely right that it would have been better to keep Koivu than trade for Gomez. Obviously. Letting Koivu walk was, I think, a move designed to change the identity of the team; that in itself may indeed have been the thing to do (the Koivu era having been an abject failure) but we needed a replacement at C, and Gomez has patently failed to deliver the goods.

As for Higgins, let's not get carried away. From 2008 to 2011 this guy was a total disaster. Only in Vancouver - the perfect situation for any player - has he finally rediscovered the game that he brought to the Habs prior to 2009-09. Lamenting his departure is revisionist history designed to make every managerial decision look as wretched as possible. I doubt you would have been willing to suffer through the three terrible years it took Higgins to get back to this point any more than the rest of Habs fandom would have been,

[Commandant]

I don't know that PG's track record was lousy.

He put good foundations in place in both Ottawa and Anaheim before leaving. His replacement in Anaheim finished the job he started, the replacement in Ottawa didnt.

He's got a good foundation here too.

i just don't think he's the guy who can finish the job with this foundation either, so get rid of him.

Say the team goes on a bit of a run? And ruins a shot at a lottery pick. At what point do you consider trading a 1st to possibly address a need?

8th or 9th overall... and depends on what I'm getting back.

I think this draft is 7 players deep.

[Toronthab]

What a great game :D I saw Habs jerseys all over town today and to have the Habs walk in and clobber the Canuckleheads is extra sweet for me as a Montrealer exiled to Vancouver. I'd almost forgotten how it feels to actually have your team win a game you care about.

Two thoughts:

1. Seeing Markov back was special, but seeing him set up Subban on the 5-on-3 was really something. It was almost as though the light-bulb was going off in Markov's head - 'holy crap, can this kid play!' That's the past and the future of the Habs's defence right there. And if we can get them both healthy and fully functioning next season, I think we'll really be in for something special. Magic.

2. Is it just me, or did we push the Canucks around tonight? There were at least 5-6 crushing hits delivered by the team in red and that physicality might be one clue as to why we dominated the third. We saw tonight, I think, a glimmer of where Gauthier wants this team to go: easily the biggest and most physically punishing edition Habs' team since the Burns era. Not that I'm getting carried away; it's just the first time I really saw this potential come together and make a difference.

When you see what Markov means to this team the past two seasons just become so frustrating. Many teams have a guy without whom they struggle: Detroit has Lidstrom, Vancouver has Kesler, Washington has Green, we have Markov. It's just our despicable, god-awful, wretchedly bad luck that OUR guy has had to been hors de combat for two years. But as long as he's out there, we can allow ourselves to hope for brighter days ahead.

You poor guy! I thought you had to be a Montrealer at home. You sound so reasonable, ..so ..sane. I lived in BC for about six years. Nobody there except BCHabit.

Here I am stuck in Toronto.. suffering cityenvy.. and I find out you're stuck there.

I'll count my blessings especially when I visit my sister in God's city soon.

I'm stil euphoric hearing announcers say.. "Markov", and got home from beautiful Lake Huron.. where they had the tornado last year ,, just in time to see him tee - up another name I love to hear.

Like you, I am grieving for the injury that was and the season that wasn't for that reason.

This is why I'm quite forgiving of the desperate moves our Goat tried to make to plug the chasm in our game. He did what he was forced to do by circumstance largely. The Cammy thing I don't know about but.. hey..

Cheers .

[Commandant]

Habs29, in writing 'Bob's your uncle' I was using the expression idiomatically, not as a backhanded way of praising Bob.

You're absolutely right that it would have been better to keep Koivu than trade for Gomez. Obviously. Letting Koivu walk was, I think, a move designed to change the identity of the team; that in itself may indeed have been the thing to do (the Koivu era having been an abject failure) but we needed a replacement at C, and Gomez has patently failed to deliver the goods.

As for Higgins, let's not get carried away. From 2008 to 2011 this guy was a total disaster. Only in Vancouver - the perfect situation for any player - has he finally rediscovered the game that he brought to the Habs prior to 2009-09. Lamenting his departure is revisionist history designed to make every managerial decision look as wretched as possible. I doubt you would have been willing to suffer through the three terrible years it took Higgins to get back to this point any more than the rest of Habs fandom would have been,

I've also heard stories that Higgins really needed to grow up and was not a good influence on Carey Price.

[hab29RETIRED]

Trading Cammy I agree with you on, it was a mistake.

AK46 wasn't a solution for that spot. No matter what he does in Nashville, he was never going to progress to more than what he was in Montreal, a 20 goal 45-50 pt guy. He wasn't going to become that top line winger. I've seen enough to know he was a solid 2nd/3rd line guy, not the prime winger we need.

I agree he is a 2nd line winger. IMO, we are okay with Cole and MaxPac on the top line until we develop some of the other kids. AK46 was the perfect 2nd line winger and I'd rather have moved Gionta to the third line to work with some kids and acquire another 2nd line winger or Dman - my prefernance was on the D, since I think DD is better suited to be a winger. Drafting a one of the two G's at centre would have positioned as nicely for next year.

This is what I had envisioned:

MaxPac-Pleks-Cole

Ak46-Eller-DD

Gionta-Grig/Gayl-Leblanc

White-Big centre-Moen replacement

Markov-Emelin

Subban-Gorges

Diaz-DMAN for Cammy

UFA Dman/Weber

[Toronthab]

IMO, Higgins was another mistake. He was also a heart and soul guy. the problem was he was miscast as a top 3, rather then a marginal 2nd liner and GREAT 3rd liner. For all those who say Koivu didn't make players around him better, only have to look at what Koivu did for Higgins. The problem is the fans, media and Gainey were in love with Kovy's skill set, while not appreciating Koivu's heart and soul effort.

That's an interesting point.

[hab29RETIRED]

I don't know that PG's track record was lousy.

He put good foundations in place in both Ottawa and Anaheim before leaving. His replacement in Anaheim finished the job he started, the replacement in Ottawa didnt.

He's got a good foundation here too.

i just don't think he's the guy who can finish the job with this foundation either, so get rid of him.

8th or 9th overall... and depends on what I'm getting back.

I think this draft is 7 players deep.

I thought Murray picked up most of the foundation for Anaheim (Getzlaf, Perry) and not PG.

Lets also not forget that the foundation the habs have is from Timmins. On the other hand, PG was head of pro scouting when the habs dumped Koivu and picked up Gomez.

[Toronthab]

I hate Mcquire as a commentator and would hate him even more as a GM. We already have on egotistical idiotic GM in PG. We would just be exchanging the man who can't speak for the man who can't shut up. Both have lousy track records - PG was a pretty lousy GM in Anaheim and McGuire was a disaster in Hartford.

I am an egotistical idiot and even I agree with you on this. Truth is, I'm not really competent to make a judgment on McGuire, but I know a lot about egotistical idiots.

[Commandant]

I thought Murray picked up most of the foundation for Anaheim (Getzlaf, Perry) and not PG.

Lets also not forget that the foundation the habs have is from Timmins. On the other hand, PG was head of pro scouting when the habs dumped Koivu and picked up Gomez.

Giguere was from PG, the year after PG left a team that was 90% his lost to New Jersey in game 7 of the finals.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Given that pro scouting was our weakest link during the Gainey era, you make an interesting point there, and it does raise questions about PG's overall qualifications for the big chair. However, Habs29, PG will be fired this summer, and almost everyone on this board agrees with you about the desirability of that happening.

[Commandant]

Was pro scouting the weakest link of the Gainey era? Or did Gainey over-rule his pro scouts? We'll never really know what happened in those back rooms.

I do know that pro scouting hasn't been a real issue for Gauthier.

The issue for Gauthier has been management, leadership, planning and PR.

[hab29RETIRED]

Habs29, in writing 'Bob's your uncle' I was using the expression idiomatically, not as a backhanded way of praising Bob.

You're absolutely right that it would have been better to keep Koivu than trade for Gomez. Obviously. Letting Koivu walk was, I think, a move designed to change the identity of the team; that in itself may indeed have been the thing to do (the Koivu era having been an abject failure) but we needed a replacement at C, and Gomez has patently failed to deliver the goods.

As for Higgins, let's not get carried away. From 2008 to 2011 this guy was a total disaster. Only in Vancouver - the perfect situation for any player - has he finally rediscovered the game that he brought to the Habs prior to 2009-09. Lamenting his departure is revisionist history designed to make every managerial decision look as wretched as possible. I doubt you would have been willing to suffer through the three terrible years it took Higgins to get back to this point any more than the rest of Habs fandom would have been,

Sorry, i thought the uncle bob comment was in praise of Gainey (I loved the player - will always be one of my favorite habs players, but will never forgive him for his "great" rebuild).

If you recall during Gainey's attempts to acquire Vinny, both Higgins and Pleks play suffered big time. You also have to keep in perspective the habs were putting Higgins in a top line position - which he was not suited for. To me its a testament to how good Koivu was when you look at Higgins productions. Also keep in mind that Higgins was a habs fan growing up and being traded had to be tough, when he said many times how much he loved Montreal.

Koivu was not the abject failure - management was. Koivu had been carrying the habs for so long as top line centre, when he was better suited to be a 2nd line centre, given his injuries. On top of that, look at the wingers he had to play with for over a decade. I think if Koivu had Cammy to play with He could have put up 70 points and Cammy's numbers would also have been higher.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Was pro scouting the weakest link of the Gainey era? Or did Gainey over-rule his pro scouts? We'll never really know what happened in those back rooms.

I do know that pro scouting hasn't been a real issue for Gauthier.

The issue for Gauthier has been management, leadership, planning and PR.

Fair enough.

It's funny how this stuff goes. Many people blame Gauthier for Gainey's mistakes, assuming PG had to be either behind those decisions or supportive of them. Yet for all we know, Gauthier vehemently opposed every one of those decisions before closing ranks behind his boss. Conversely, Bob - especially in his later, more distracted phase as GM - may have leaned on PG's judgement a lot. We just don't know.

I'm with your last sentence 100%.

[hab29RETIRED]

I've also heard stories that Higgins really needed to grow up and was not a good influence on Carey Price.

Higgins was 4 straight 20 goal seasons, in his first four seasons (again testament to Koivu), and like the rest of the team collapsed in 2008-9. Why is that habs constantly have to trade guys that have to "grow up". To me there is something wrong with Management and not the young players, when you constantly have issues with young players - Theo, Ribeoro, (the other guy from the 3 amigos - can't recall the name), Lats, Laps, Higgins, Price, Grabs, Sk74. Most teams do a much better job in sheltering and helping players mature - not dumping them for a Lumme (for Ribs) or two guys that were both going to be UFA's in TWO DAYS (for SK74).

At some point you have to point the finger at management rather then young players, if management isn't putting together a program to help the maturation and development of young players.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Sorry, i thought the uncle bob comment was in praise of Gainey (I loved the player - will always be one of my favorite habs players, but will never forgive him for his "great" rebuild).

If you recall during Gainey's attempts to acquire Vinny, both Higgins and Pleks play suffered big time. You also have to keep in perspective the habs were putting Higgins in a top line position - which he was not suited for. To me its a testament to how good Koivu was when you look at Higgins productions. Also keep in mind that Higgins was a habs fan growing up and being traded had to be tough, when he said many times how much he loved Montreal.

Koivu was not the abject failure - management was. Koivu had been carrying the habs for so long as top line centre, when he was better suited to be a 2nd line centre, given his injuries. On top of that, look at the wingers he had to play with for over a decade. I think if Koivu had Cammy to play with He could have put up 70 points and Cammy's numbers would also have been higher.

Also fair points. In the end, we won't know what went wrong with Higgins. Injuries, rumours of hard living, misuse by the habs - whatever it was, those problems would likely still have had to be worked out had he remained with us.

The Koivu era was an abject failure, not Koivu, agreed. Cripes, I loved Koivu!! But he had clearly begun his decline and it really did feel like time to turn the page. (For that matter, those reports that UFAs would not have come here with him as our #1 C remain an unsettling message about how he was viewed or what he seemed to represent outside of Montreal). I still feel that letting him go wasn't the mistake per se, getting Gomez was.

I also agree that we have this ridiculous habit of dumping immature players and that it is indeed ridiculous. But in saying we should have kept Higgins, you're saying we should regret not having had to suffer through three straight seasons of injury-riddled garabge from him. Sorry, I just can't cry in my beer over that.

[hab29RETIRED]

Giguere was from PG, the year after PG left a team that was 90% his lost to New Jersey in game 7 of the finals.

The three main reason anaheim made the finals were Giguere, Kariya and Babcock. you can credit PG for Giguere, but frankly goalies tend to be a crap shoot. Hell, if we had to do 2005 again, without the benefit of hindsight, i would have picked Kopitar (just as i was hoping the habs would take Getzlaf in 2003, while my brother was hoping we'd take Parise). I hate using a top ten pick on a goalie. Roy was what a 3rd or 4th rounder??? Calgary traded UP for NJ's pick and drafted Trevor Kidd. On the other hand, NJ with the lower pick picked up Brodeur. Depietro was #1 or #2 pick. lehtonen was a top 3 or 4 pick. too much risk with picking a goalie that high. Hell even Fleury who was a #1 or top 3 pick IMO, is a good goalie on a VERy good team, but put him on the habs and I don't think his numbers would be as good as Price's.

Kariya was already there, before PG and I don't remember if Oates was brought in by PG or not.

Anytime you win in the playoffs because a goalie is standing on his head, I have a hard time praising the GM.

[hab29RETIRED]

Also fair points. In the end, we won't know what went wrong with Higgins. Injuries, rumours of hard living, misuse by the habs - whatever it was, those problems would likely still have had to be worked out had he remained with us.

The Koivu era was an abject failure, not Koivu, agreed. Cripes, I loved Koivu!! But he had clearly begun his decline and it really did feel like time to turn the page. (For that matter, those reports that UFAs would not have come here with him as our #1 C remain an unsettling message about how he was viewed or what he seemed to represent outside of Montreal). I still feel that letting him go wasn't the mistake per se, getting Gomez was.

I also agree that we have this ridiculous habit of dumping immature players and that it is indeed ridiculous. But in saying we should have kept Higgins, you're saying we should regret not having had to suffer through three straight seasons of injury-riddled garabge from him. Sorry, I just can't cry in my beer over that.

I think too much is made of Cammy signing for Gomez. Cammy signed with the habs because we offered him $1.5M more then any other team for 5 years. Calgary offered him even less then that - reportedly $4M/year for 4 years.

[fromage]

(the other guy from the 3 amigos - can't recall the name)

Pierre effing Dagenais.

[BlueKross]

Habs 29--- BINGO --- I don't think you have missed on anything. Koivu should have been treated like Detroit did Stevie Y and just gave him a decreased role until he was ready to retire. Hell we could have used him this year. Same with Higgins. I give Bob Gainey a mulligan. I don't know how any man can cope with such a tragic lose with the death of his daughter. The decision making after that event took a huge hit.

[Commandant]

I think too much is made of Cammy signing for Gomez.  Cammy signed with the habs because we offered him $1.5M more then any other team for 5 years.  Calgary offered him even less then that - reportedly $4M/year for 4 years.

toronto offered cammy over 5 million a season. We didn't give him 1.5 more than anyone else.

[BCHabnut]

I am an egotistical idiot and even I agree with you on this. Truth is, I'm not really competent to make a judgment on McGuire, but I know a lot about egotistical idiots.

You are probably the most humble guy on the site. I wouldn't call you egotistical.

[Habsy]

The TANK is dead. That's my opinion. Look at the schedule, the return of Markov, the drive for 30 goals by Cole. Could Pacioretty approach 40? I hate to say it my friends, but it's over. Forget the lottery pick.

[sbhatt]

The TANK is dead. That's my opinion. Look at the schedule, the return of Markov, the drive for 30 goals by Cole. Could Pacioretty approach 40? I hate to say it my friends, but it's over. Forget the lottery pick.

This pisses me off, but I'm afraid you may be right. This team looks capable of playing itself out of a top five pick.

A minor hamstring pull for Carey at the next practice would be a godsend...that might keep us in lottery position.

[Commandant]

There's 13 games left. Even with Markov I still don't see this team showing the consistency necessary to pull out of the bottom 5. Carolina is playing well and is still 4 points up.