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July 1st: Who do we want, who can we get?


Commandant

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Alright now lets talk duration?

3 months?

and only two ways to win.

Either the season ends in mid April and Gomez is on Habs roster all year.

Or Gomez is waived and sent to hamilton or traded bought out.

JMMR extends hand to JoeLassister for a shake

3 months it is. You're right about how to win.

If the season is cancelled, consider this as a tie.

JoeLassister extends hand to JMMR for a shake.

Edit : never wanted that much to lose a bet.

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I expect you are right. That approach has really paid dividends for the last three years. A couple of injuries here and there and we will be right back to trying to keep afloat. We got to give the new coaching staff a little bit of leeway, but are we trying to win the Stanley Cup or are we trying to again squirm into the playoffs?

To be fair, this year, we are honestly not trying to win the Stanley Cup. Realistically, that will be in 2 years or so when Galy, Leblanc, Tinordi, Gallager, Beaulieu, etc are with the team and contributing. Make no mistake, our goal this season will be to be more competitive and make the playoffs.
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To be fair, this year, we are honestly not trying to win the Stanley Cup. Realistically, that will be in 2 years or so when Galy, Leblanc, Tinordi, Gallager, Beaulieu, etc are with the team and contributing. Make no mistake, our goal this season will be to be more competitive and make the playoffs.

I get that but, if you set your goals to try and be the last place team in the playoffs thats going to be the high point and thats exactly where you will be if and that is a big IF you succeed. If you are a Montreal Canadien fan, sixteenth place is not an exceptable goal.

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I get that but, if you set your goals to try and be the last place team in the playoffs thats going to be the high point and thats exactly where you will be if and that is a big IF you succeed. If you are a Montreal Canadien fan, sixteenth place is not an exceptable goal.

Well, you have to be realistic. Short of going out and signing both Parise and Suter, there was no way this group of players was ever going to contend this season. Everybody knows we're looking at a short-term rebuild, by which I mean, we have a lot of maturing young players and need a few more talented youngsters to slot in as those guys hit their primes. That is the 'core' of the team we hope will contend within, say, 2-3 years.

The thing with Gomez is: unless you have some clear, tangible use for that $7 mil in cap space, or some massively superior player for that final roster spot, why not keep him around under these circumstances? He only really becomes a problem insofar as you need the cap room. While you could argue that his existence already hurt us by impeding our ability to sign pricey veteran UFAs like Jagr or Whitney, the slightly puzzling fact is that Bergevin didn't seem especially interested in going after those guys anyway. Apparently he is content to bank on a resurgent Bourque plus some young guy stepping up in order to fill the holes left by Kosty and Cammy.

As for the wider issue of our 'settling' for 16th place: this is the third consecutive rebuild since Gainey took over. Each one has raised the hope of a team that could get over that hump and become a true contender. The first wave, the 2005-2009 group, had one great season but ultimately shattered against the rocks of poor player development. The second wave - which I referred to as a 'stealth rebuild' - involved reconstructing a competitive team via free agency which was supposed to keep us in the mix until the next generation of youth come step in. In some ways it surpassed expectations, taking us to the semi-finals in 2010 and taking the Cup champs to Game 7 OT in 2011. The whole scheme appeared to be working rather well, but unfortunately it could not survive the twin catastrophes of losing Markov to injury and Wisniewski to free agency (not to mention what Hammer brought) and the house of cards came crashing down last season.

The point is that in neither case was the plan to just eke out a playoff spot and hope for a miracle. Gainey's two rebuilds were intended to yield contenders. He did have the right idea, building with drafting and youth. But it's not an exact science to begin with, and the combination of bad luck plus serious missteps could not be overcome. Hopefully Bergevin can have better luck and/or better judgement. But there's little to be gained in being too impatient - shortcuts hardly ever work. All we can do is hope to improve each season and, if all goes well, move into bona-fide 'contender' status perhaps by Year Three.

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Well, you have to be realistic. Short of going out and signing both Parise and Suter, there was no way this group of players was ever going to contend this season. Everybody knows we're looking at a short-term rebuild, by which I mean, we have a lot of maturing young players and need a few more talented youngsters to slot in as those guys hit their primes. That is the 'core' of the team we hope will contend within, say, 2-3 years.

The thing with Gomez is: unless you have some clear, tangible use for that $7 mil in cap space, or some massively superior player for that final roster spot, why not keep him around under these circumstances? He only really becomes a problem insofar as you need the cap room. While you could argue that his existence already hurt us by impeding our ability to sign pricey veteran UFAs like Jagr or Whitney, the slightly puzzling fact is that Bergevin didn't seem especially interested in going after those guys anyway. Apparently he is content to bank on a resurgent Bourque plus some young guy stepping up in order to fill the holes left by Kosty and Cammy.

As for the wider issue of our 'settling' for 16th place: this is the third consecutive rebuild since Gainey took over. Each one has raised the hope of a team that could get over that hump and become a true contender. The first wave, the 2005-2009 group, had one great season but ultimately shattered against the rocks of poor player development. The second wave - which I referred to as a 'stealth rebuild' - involved reconstructing a competitive team via free agency which was supposed to keep us in the mix until the next generation of youth come step in. In some ways it surpassed expectations, taking us to the semi-finals in 2010 and taking the Cup champs to Game 7 OT in 2011. The whole scheme appeared to be working rather well, but unfortunately it could not survive the twin catastrophes of losing Markov to injury and Wisniewski to free agency (not to mention what Hammer brought) and the house of cards came crashing down last season.

The point is that in neither case was the plan to just eke out a playoff spot and hope for a miracle. Gainey's two rebuilds were intended to yield contenders. He did have the right idea, building with drafting and youth. But it's not an exact science to begin with, and the combination of bad luck plus serious missteps could not be overcome. Hopefully Bergevin can have better luck and/or better judgement. But there's little to be gained in being too impatient - shortcuts hardly ever work. All we can do is hope to improve each season and, if all goes well, move into bona-fide 'contender' status perhaps by Year Three.

Well you can speculate all you want as to why the wheels fell off twice, but it is sad to have to start a new phase with that whetstone anchor contract around your neck. You are not getting 2m dollars of value out of a 7M dollar contract. You are at a disadvantage before you start. You are going to hit pot holes along the way, you don't need to start from a pothole.

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It sounds like an excuse but seriously, losing Markov for the last two years cost us from having a serious Cup contender.

If we have Markov back all year even if he isn't 08-09 Markov will make a huge difference with the club. All of the talk about defensive depth problems are gone if Markov is healthy. He looked rough at the end of the season but of course he would. He's the most intelligent player on our team and will take us from a shoddy D to a very good D.

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I've heard every excuse under the sun, and it is always someone else's fault. What happened to if you don't perform you are gone? Talk about a golden spoon. How many years in a row, do you carry the man? Nobody else gets that treatment.

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A healthy Markov would make a huge difference. And please don't question my "fan" status, I have been a fan of this team since I was old enough to watch TV. The fact is, the smart way to build a contender is to do it through the draft and player development. We have some excellent prospects, we have a development team in place to help them succeed. They are a few years away. I would like to see this team contend year after year. I wish we could have such a team this year, but realistically, I think we're going to be in a battle for a playoff spot again this year. The pieces to make us an instant contender are not really out there via free agency, other than the 2 that Minny signed, and I wouldn't even want to see us take on those huge contracts. So, this team won't go the Toronto route, trading the future for a quick fix. The only thing which might make us better right now would be Doan, and I don't know if he would actually make us a contender. Thus, this is where we are, if another tough year or so mean we're going to be long term contenders, then, I suppose I could wait for that.

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A healthy Markov would make a huge difference. And please don't question my "fan" status, I have been a fan of this team since I was old enough to watch TV. The fact is, the smart way to build a contender is to do it through the draft and player development. We have some excellent prospects, we have a development team in place to help them succeed. They are a few years away. I would like to see this team contend year after year. I wish we could have such a team this year, but realistically, I think we're going to be in a battle for a playoff spot again this year. The pieces to make us an instant contender are not really out there via free agency, other than the 2 that Minny signed, and I wouldn't even want to see us take on those huge contracts. So, this team won't go the Toronto route, trading the future for a quick fix. The only thing which might make us better right now would be Doan, and I don't know if he would actually make us a contender. Thus, this is where we are, if another tough year or so mean we're going to be long term contenders, then, I suppose I could wait for that.

Right. BlueKross talks about that idiot Gomez's contract as an 'anchor' bogging down the rebuild. Obviously it's only a matter of time until he is excised from the equation. But for this season that $7 mil is not especially problematic because there was no one to spend it on who would have been both willing to come here and good enough to make us contenders. It's not as though we were right in the hunt for Parise or Suter and only faltered because of our cap structure. And like I say, Bergevin honestly seems to have had minimal interest in patchwork guys like Jagr or Whitney (who wouldn't have made us contenders anyway, just viable playoff teams). So Gomez's salary is not in any way preventing us from being contenders this particular season. We have too many holes, and there were too few impact UFAs available, for that to be the case.

One thing to keep in mind is that the UFA market has been getting thinner and thinner every summer as teams have learned to lock up their star talent. It's no longer a question of just throwing $7 mil at a problem and voila, it's fixed. You can easily end up creating new problems by signing middling talent to superstar term/salary. And there's no point in signing just for the sake of signing...you still want a good fit.

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Right. BlueKross talks about that idiot Gomez's contract as an 'anchor' bogging down the rebuild. Obviously it's only a matter of time until he is excised from the equation. But for this season that $7 mil is not especially problematic because there was no one to spend it on who would have been both willing to come here and good enough to make us contenders. It's not as though we were right in the hunt for Parise or Suter and only faltered because of our cap structure. And like I say, Bergevin honestly seems to have had minimal interest in patchwork guys like Jagr or Whitney (who wouldn't have made us contenders anyway, just viable playoff teams). So Gomez's salary is not in any way preventing us from being contenders this particular season. We have too many holes, and there were too few impact UFAs available, for that to be the case.

One thing to keep in mind is that the UFA market has been getting thinner and thinner every summer as teams have learned to lock up their star talent. It's no longer a question of just throwing $7 mil at a problem and voila, it's fixed. You can easily end up creating new problems by signing middling talent to superstar term/salary. And there's no point in signing just for the sake of signing...you still want a good fit.

You are not far off the truth. I would state that space is a commodity and although you can not see anybody that might actively help in our particular case, you may be able to upgrade by trading somebody space. For example, somebody realizes that they need an upgrade at defense, they trade a higher end forward for a lower end to get space to improve defense. That assumes you have the space to move. (Gomez) As for Hankhab my reference to a habs fan was a generalization of habs fans who are content to relish a berth in the playoffs as an acceptable outcome to a years performance. No more no less.

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Right. BlueKross talks about that idiot Gomez's contract as an 'anchor' bogging down the rebuild. Obviously it's only a matter of time until he is excised from the equation. But for this season that $7 mil is not especially problematic because there was no one to spend it on who would have been both willing to come here and good enough to make us contenders. It's not as though we were right in the hunt for Parise or Suter and only faltered because of our cap structure. And like I say, Bergevin honestly seems to have had minimal interest in patchwork guys like Jagr or Whitney (who wouldn't have made us contenders anyway, just viable playoff teams). So Gomez's salary is not in any way preventing us from being contenders this particular season. We have too many holes, and there were too few impact UFAs available, for that to be the case.

One thing to keep in mind is that the UFA market has been getting thinner and thinner every summer as teams have learned to lock up their star talent. It's no longer a question of just throwing $7 mil at a problem and voila, it's fixed. You can easily end up creating new problems by signing middling talent to superstar term/salary. And there's no point in signing just for the sake of signing...you still want a good fit.

It's not just cap space. Gomez has been an anchor that was constantly given 3rd and 4th chances and ate up PP time without any production. Having an anchor like Gomez cuts cap room, but also forces the coaching staff to keep hoping he regains his touch and starts producing. Our kids (Eller, Leblanc) or other players (AK46) that should have been getting more PP time or been playing with better linemates, played with slugs, while for the past two years (less so last year), kept getting time PP time and a chance with better line mates. Other players were given a much shorter rope then Gomez, despite how bad Gomez's production is. This really pissed me off during the past couple of year's how Martin would have a short leash with our young guys and keep throwing Gomez out again, despite how useless he was.

That is why I fear keeping him around again this year and constantly hoping that he rediscovers his game. It's time to cut the cord and move on. Frankly, I think if Gomez went to a team like Calgary and was paired with Iginla, he would regain his touch. I just think that the Martin system didn't mesh with his game. I also think there is just to much water under the bridge for him to succeed even there is new management in Montreal this year.

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It's not just cap space. Gomez has been an anchor that was constantly given 3rd and 4th chances and ate up PP time without any production. Having an anchor like Gomez cuts cap room, but also forces the coaching staff to keep hoping he regains his touch and starts producing. Our kids (Eller, Leblanc) or other players (AK46) that should have been getting more PP time or been playing with better linemates, played with slugs, while for the past two years (less so last year), kept getting time PP time and a chance with better line mates. Other players were given a much shorter rope then Gomez, despite how bad Gomez's production is. This really pissed me off during the past couple of year's how Martin would have a short leash with our young guys and keep throwing Gomez out again, despite how useless he was.

That is why I fear keeping him around again this year and constantly hoping that he rediscovers his game. It's time to cut the cord and move on. Frankly, I think if Gomez went to a team like Calgary and was paired with Iginla, he would regain his touch. I just think that the Martin system didn't mesh with his game. I also think there is just to much water under the bridge for him to succeed even there is new management in Montreal this year.

Good points. My understanding of Therrien is that he's not the type to cater to veterans the way Martin did, so this may be less of a concern this time around. It is also my understanding of Therrien that his emphasis on grinding it out and playing tightfisted defensive systems will likely be just as incompatible with Gomer Pyle's 'game' (if we can call it that) as Martin's was, so I agree with you that a resurgence in Montreal is unlikely. Still, we have roster spots available for young guns even with Gomez's carcass in the lineup. All things considered, then, I'm not too worried about a useless Gomez stunting the development of Leblanc or whoever. But perhaps I'm seeing the glass as half full.

See? There is always more to debate when it comes to Scott Gomez :nuts:

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Good points. My understanding of Therrien is that he's not the type to cater to veterans the way Martin did, so this may be less of a concern this time around. It is also my understanding of Therrien that his emphasis on grinding it out and playing tightfisted defensive systems will likely be just as incompatible with Gomer Pyle's 'game' (if we can call it that) as Martin's was, so I agree with you that a resurgence in Montreal is unlikely. Still, we have roster spots available for young guns even with Gomez's carcass in the lineup. All things considered, then, I'm not too worried about a useless Gomez stunting the development of Leblanc or whoever. But perhaps I'm seeing the glass as half full.

See? There is always more to debate when it comes to Scott Gomez :nuts:

I'm generally known as the glass is empty guy :P Seeing what has become of the habs the past 17 or 18 years, after my first 18 years of I have difficulties in even keeping the glass half full.

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I'm generally known as the glass is empty guy :P Seeing what has become of the habs the past 17 or 18 years, after my first 18 years of I have difficulties in even keeping the glass half full.

I'll drink to that. So to speak.

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I'm a, "The glass is always full because I'm so drunk I keep blacking out and buying another drink" kind of guy :)`

Now, if you could afford one of those new condo units Molson is building right next to the Bell Centre, wouldn't your life be complete?
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the lineup as i see it only really has one hole , and that is a 1a/1b LW, Here is how i see things

max pac dd cole

HOLE plek gionta

moen gomez bourque

armstrong eller prust

white

georges subban

markov emelin

diaz boullion/ kaberle

i know there can be a lot of shuffling between those bottom six and i see that, and i would only like to fill that hole without making up any trades which are too hard to predict. And of course i would like to get rid of kaberle/gomez but dont see it happen. The only assumption i will make it that we get subban signed in the vecinity of 6y/23 (3.83 cap hit) a guess???? Going off of cap geek that would give us roughly 5 mill and change in cap space.

Here are two scenarios which i have excluded doan who would be my number 1 on a reasonable contract but it sure wounds like he is going to get way more money than i think he is worth

1. Semin , sure doesnt seem like much interest in a players who averages over 60 points a season and is only 28, i know we have bad luck with russian and he is definitely not an MB type player, but i think he could do alot of damage on a line with plek and really help the pp. And i would be happy to take the risk on a 2 or 3 year deal with somewhere around six mill(i could be out to lunch on this one)

2.AK , i know most people are over him but on a cheaper risk we could try him in a role where him and bourque compete for the spot on the 2nd line and we play the hot hand and i think he is attainable between 2.5/3 not much risk there.

I know neither one of there players have the every night compete level that MB is looking for but with a huge offensive hole, which i think if we fill right our top two lines are sitting nice with very strong 3a/3b lines. And with a healthy markov the d should be pretty good as well. And i know i never included in house rookies and some fringe players but i think they will all get there chances as it is a very long season and there are always injuries.

Well let me know what you think or any other realistic options i may have overlooked

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Subban at 3.83 million for 6 years including free agent seasons is a joke. His agent would hang up the phone and laugh in your face.

For 6 years yes, 3 years, thats right where it would be.
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Subban was still a top 30 point producing blueliner last year with scoring down across the board, having the same amount of points as Kronwall and Doughty. Kronwall is 31 and makes $4.75M.

He had three more points than Jason Garrison who got $4.6M on the open market (albeit taking a hometown discount) despite being four years older than Subban and a UFA.

Doughty is one year younger than Subban and considered a number one blueliner for his team today while Subban is "close" to that. He was Montreal's number one last season but many feel he isn't there yet. Doughty makes $7M.

Yeah, Subban would totally accept $3.8M. Yeah...

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I'd predict you are both wrong.

Galchenyuk is likely getting the eight games up and I'm betting Leblanc will get a look at the start of the season as well. Both of these push Gomez out of the lineup. They are going to be determined to see how Bourque plays in the top six with Plekanec and Gionta (likely) and if he's flopping, Leblanc can't replace and Galchenyuk needs to go back to the OHL, *then* they will make a trade for a top six player. Gomez doesn't decide anything unless he plays great enough to make the roster.

I'm hoping a healthy Galchenyuk blows everyones mind at camp and is an NHLer from day one, but I don't count on that happening this year.
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