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2012-13 Habs Lineup: the Forwards


hankhab

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The team should push for the playoffs always but they should also not be panicking and signing any available free agent just to fill holes. I'd like a little patience out of my GM even though I can't expect it from the fanbase ;)

Oh, I'm not panicking yet. But I won't be too thrilled heading into October with exactly this lineup, is all.

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Don't sell the farm, but why not at least try to make the playoffs? Until I see MB do something to fix the top-6 - the blueline being much harder to address - I'm going to be furrowing my brow, because this group is not a legitimate playoff club as far as I can see. I remain slightly puzzled by out disinterest in Jagr and our apparent apathy about Whitney, let alone longer shots such as Lats. Surely the attitude of management is not just to cross its fingers on this dubious lineup - ?

I think the management might have it in their minds that signing Jagr, or Whitney, would stunt the development of potential training campees. I would love for Galy or Gallagher to push for a spot on this team out of training camp, and not in a token 4th line role, which happens a lot to the habs, putting players in the wrong positions to succeed and then bemoaning their lack of productiong on a line full of pluggers at 7 mins a game.

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I think the management might have it in their minds that signing Jagr, or Whitney, would stunt the development of potential training campees. I would love for Galy or Gallagher to push for a spot on this team out of training camp, and not in a token 4th line role, which happens a lot to the habs, putting players in the wrong positions to succeed and then bemoaning their lack of productiong on a line full of pluggers at 7 mins a game.

Interesting. It sure would be exciting to see one of these prospects come up and jump immediately into a top-6 role. Who knows, maybe this is Bergervin's philosophy of player development: throw a player into his 'natural' role and let him grow into himself at the NHL level, sort of the Edmonton approach. As for me, I never, ever count on a raw rookie stepping in and playing a huge role, so this seems like fantasyland to me. The likeliest outcome of this scenario is that we're scrambling to fill the hole sometime in December when the rookie peters out.

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Oh, I'm not panicking yet. But I won't be too thrilled heading into October with exactly this lineup, is all.

I wouldn't be ecstatic either but there's a reason we're not GMs. I'm sure Bergevin sees players that should be shipped out and players he has little confidence in but he can't go out guns blazing. Guys like Rene Bourque he can't be immediately kicking tires to move because first of all his value is at an all time low and second he has barely established a relationship with any of the GMs and if he even tries he won't get much if any value at all. There's a reason he picked up Therrien that people tend to forget.This comes straight from a Pens fan I know, "Hiring Therrien is like sending your team to boot camp."

So think of a lazy guy like Bourque who everyone believes isn't worth his $3M per season despite only being one season removed from back to back 27 goal campaigns. He's a big body who would be a great fit with Plekanec and Gionta if he wasn't so lazy and gave up on shifts. Who better than for a boot camp coach to kick him into gear? If Therrien can't make something out of Bourque than certainly nobody in this league is going to take his contract and Bergevin will be left with buying out Gauthier's mistake. But if Bourque can respond and make something out of himself we have a top six line where each player is capable of 25 goals.

This is why some decisions get made where on our side we go, "What's he waiting for?" but really, that's why we're not in the GM box.

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The biggest problem with this team's forwards is Gomez. Before Last year began, there was a great deal of confidence in the team. We had Cammie, Gionta, And no way was Gomez gonna have as bad of a year as 2010/ 2011. We were a little worried about how Cole was going to turn out but he had to be good for 20 goals. It turns out that Pac, Cole and DD came out to shine. I don't know how the lines work with Gomez and Plek, but if MB does not Bring more top 6 talent, I keep the two and a half men line in tact, and find a way to play Gomez and Gionta together. There is already chemistry there. This is where the Plek problem arises. He is the best forward on the team. I don't mean on paper. I mean in points over the last 3 seasons. This is the biggest issue in hockey. If you don't have the elite players who are on top all the time, your secondary guys take turns putting up points. I am skeptical that the 2.5 line can repeat last year.

Pac DD Cole

Bourque Gomez Gionta

Eller Plek Armstrong

Prust White Moen

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I think the management might have it in their minds that signing Jagr, or Whitney, would stunt the development of potential training campees. I would love for Galy or Gallagher to push for a spot on this team out of training camp, and not in a token 4th line role, which happens a lot to the habs, putting players in the wrong positions to succeed and then bemoaning their lack of productiong on a line full of pluggers at 7 mins a game.

So you don't think that Jagr could have helped develop our young players the way he was a positive influence for Giroux??? The issue is not Jagr taking away quality time from Galy or Gallagher. The issue in montreal is having Jacque Martin playing Eller or Lelblanc 10 minutes a game with scrubs, while Darche and Moen are on the top lines. That is the same fear I have for this year with Moen, Prust, Armstrong and White.

The contract that Neil just got from Ottawa really makes the Prust contract look even more horrible then what I had originally thought.

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Don't forget to add a million for Quebec taxes over those three years, but ya, I would way rather have Neil than Prust.

Neil could have gotten more on the open market. He is, in my opinion, agreeing to less because he likes Ottawa and the team he has always played for. You have to respect the man for that.
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Remember when before the season we had a Pacioretty-Gomez-Gionta line pegged as a trio only to see them do nothing at [...]

I've said all along that Desharnais was to me at least the odd man out [...]

Good points. After reading the article on Eller (edit: added link), I started thinking that maybe it is time to do the unpopular (even unthinkable) and bump Desharnais down two notches by moving Eller and Pleks up? like this

Pacioretty -Plekanec -Cole

Bourque -Eller -Gionta

Moen -Desharnais -Armstrong

Prust -Nokelainen. -White

With Gomez filling in for injuried players.

[...] because this group is not a legitimate playoff club as far as I can see. [...]

I think this team will make the playoffs as is, if healthy; but it will fizzle during the first/second round without a top 6 power forward and a 2nd pairing gritty defensive D.

Edited by alfredoh2009
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Neil could have gotten more on the open market. He is, in my opinion, agreeing to less because he likes Ottawa and the team he has always played for. You have to respect the man for that.

Yeah, Neil definitely went with hometown discount. Prust went with the best free agency offer.

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Good points. After reading the article on Eller, I started thinking that maybe it is time to do the unpopular (even unthinkable) and bump Desharnais down two notches by moving Eller and Pleks up? like this

Pacioretty -Plekanec -Cole

Bourque -Eller -Gionta

Moen -Desharnais -Armstrong

Prust -Nokelainen. -White

With Gomez filling in for injuried players.

I think this team will make the playoffs as is, if healthy; but it will fizzle during the first/second round without a top 6 power forward and a 2nd pairing gritty defensive D.

I think it is very possible Therrien will totally mix up the lines. He is a new coach, and is not bound to keep anyone together. In fact, he'll probably mix things up just to get guys out of their comfort zone (Pleks should be fine, as that was going on all year for him last season). As far as being a playoff team, well, major injuries aside, we should at least be in contention this year (we were last year, up until they fired Martin and replaced him with Cunnyworth), but I don't think Bergevin is of the opinion that we must do whatever is needed to do that this year. I think he is planning on being competitive this season, waiting for our young guys to mature, then really put it together over the next 2-3 years. Thats how Stanley Cup contenders are built. If we mortgage the future on a few guys now, well, thats the Brian Burke/Maple Leafs model.
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What about Desharnais on the wing where we can focus on offense instead of defensive battles?

He does not have a good shot, and would wear from battling along the boards.

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What about Desharnais on the wing where we can focus on offense instead of defensive battles?

In time I think this is best. He'd make it work with his hockey sense and intelligence and he would face less battles in the defensive zone, so I'm not worried about him wearing down more as Alfredoh suggests.

We are probably at least a year away from it happening though.

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A center will be moved before he is switched to the wing.

He CENTERED one of the most productive lines the habs have had in 20 years. Why move him?

Desharnais

At home 35 points +17

On the road 25 points -7

He can't handle the defensive responsibilities of a centre when the other team's coach gets the ability to match lines.

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Desharnais

At home 35 points +17

On the road 25 points -7

He can't handle the defensive responsibilities of a centre when the other team's coach gets the ability to match lines.

This is very telling and I feel the same why about DD's future at centre.

But we should give him another year down the middle to see what he can do and if he can improve.

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This is very telling and I feel the same why about DD's future at centre.

But we should give him another year down the middle to see what he can do and if he can improve.

Yes, every year in every league he has been in, he has always improved or been promoted, so who knows if he is another Marc Savard type and racks up 20 goals and 55 assists this year (but i would be happy with exact same as last year from him)??

Whatever you say about him, he seems to always work hard and has already overcome long odds from ECHL, to 60 points in his 1st full year in the big club.

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Yes, every year in every league he has been in, he has always improved or been promoted, so who knows if he is another Marc Savard type and racks up 20 goals and 55 assists this year (but i would be happy with exact same as last year from him)??

Whatever you say about him, he seems to always work hard and has already overcome long odds from ECHL, to 60 points in his 1st full year in the big club.

We always tend to understate what DD did last year. Its quite possible he could move into the 75 point range, or more, this season. Do I want him moved around? Hell no, unless his line starts to regress. Will Therrien feel the same? Thats the big question.
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We always tend to understate what DD did last year. Its quite possible he could move into the 75 point range, or more, this season. Do I want him moved around? Hell no, unless his line starts to regress. Will Therrien feel the same? Thats the big question.

Therrien loves hard workers. If DD is moved it's because he doesn't want to sign in Montreal. If he gets moved on the team it's simply to the wing.

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Therrien loves hard workers. If DD is moved it's because he doesn't want to sign in Montreal. If he gets moved on the team it's simply to the wing.

I meant moved around, as in switching positions. I see no reason why you would switch the teams most productive centre to the wing, unless Galchenyuk is so spectacular in camp that his play demends he be kept with the Habs.
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I meant moved around, as in switching positions. I see no reason why you would switch the teams most productive centre to the wing, unless Galchenyuk is so spectacular in camp that his play demends he be kept with the Habs.

He was only the most productive becasue Plekanec took on all top opposition line match-ups, if switched roles Tomas (or Lars) would easily have racked up more points than they did.

And also you can move him to wing because he is a very smart player and likely would adapt better than others (like Eller who seems to struggle on the wing).

Or you could even move him to 3rd line centre and he might do great with Leblanc and Moan/Gallagher? Or anyone might do well with DD because he is such a good playmaker?

Also, can you succeed with 2 small centres at #1 and #2? Eller might light it up if given 2 big wingers?? Who knows.

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I meant moved around, as in switching positions. I see no reason why you would switch the teams most productive centre to the wing, unless Galchenyuk is so spectacular in camp that his play demends he be kept with the Habs.

DD is an incredibly intelligent player, whose greatest asset is his hockey sense and ability to produce while adapting to new situations. I fully believe he can adapt to wing and continue to produce there. Offensively he has tenacity and good anticipation which helps him dig out loose pucks and make plays along the boards offensively.

At Centre DD’s biggest liability is that he has the defensive responsibility to help out with the three forwards down low. He is outmuscled and beaten by bigger guys on the cycle game. This led to a difference of +17 at home for DD and -7 on the road for him last season. When our coaches were unable to linematch DD’s line, it became a problem. They would cycle the puck and as soon as DD was trying to contain a big forward he would be able to push past DD and drive the net.

Defensively he is actually pretty good on the PK, as he was used there in the AHL, and in the 2010-11 season. The reason for this is his smarts and anticipation. He plays up high, covering the point on the PP and is not working to defend down low. This means less battles in a cycle game and more using his smart play and anticipation to cover the point. This is similar to the defensive role he would be put in at ES if made a full time winger.

Most players DD’s size (5’9 and under) come up as Centres and are eventually moved to wing for the defensive reasons I outlined. They include, Jiri Hudler, Mike Cammalleri, Nathan Gerbe, Tyler Ennis, and Theo Fleury, not to mention guys who were already wings like Brian Gionta and Martin St. Louis.

This might not happen this season, but its where I think this team is headed when Galchenyuk is ready to be a centre in the NHL.

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DD is an incredibly intelligent player, whose greatest asset is his hockey sense and ability to produce while adapting to new situations. I fully believe he can adapt to wing and continue to produce there. Offensively he has tenacity and good anticipation which helps him dig out loose pucks and make plays along the boards offensively.

At Centre DD’s biggest liability is that he has the defensive responsibility to help out with the three forwards down low. He is outmuscled and beaten by bigger guys on the cycle game. This led to a difference of +17 at home for DD and -7 on the road for him last season. When our coaches were unable to linematch DD’s line, it became a problem. They would cycle the puck and as soon as DD was trying to contain a big forward he would be able to push past DD and drive the net.

Defensively he is actually pretty good on the PK, as he was used there in the AHL, and in the 2010-11 season. The reason for this is his smarts and anticipation. He plays up high, covering the point on the PP and is not working to defend down low. This means less battles in a cycle game and more using his smart play and anticipation to cover the point. This is similar to the defensive role he would be put in at ES if made a full time winger.

Most players DD’s size (5’9 and under) come up as Centres and are eventually moved to wing for the defensive reasons I outlined. They include, Jiri Hudler, Mike Cammalleri, Nathan Gerbe, Tyler Ennis, and Theo Fleury, not to mention guys who were already wings like Brian Gionta and Martin St. Louis.

This might not happen this season, but its where I think this team is headed when Galchenyuk is ready to be a centre in the NHL.

Thank you for this comandant - it is probably the single most concise educational post i have ever read on any online hockey forum. i learned about DD, about the Habs future, about coaching, and about hockey in general.

much appreciated.

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Thank you for this comandant - it is probably the single most concise educational post i have ever read on any online hockey forum. i learned about DD, about the Habs future, about coaching, and about hockey in general.

much appreciated.

I have a feeling that Therrien might want to play with the lines a bit. It would be interesting to see what Eller could do between Patches and Cole.
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