2012-13 Habs Lineup: the Forwards

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Commandant has always been hugely insightful and his analyses of Desharnais have been very helpful over the past year or two.

Two thoughts: first, DD's -7 on the road may partly reflect the impotence of Plekanec last season. The DD line got all the toughest matchups. If we can get Pleks going again, that might create a bit more leeway for Desharnais this season. (Unfortunately, MB has done exactly zero to try to achieve this goal). Second, DD is one of the smartest players around and no doubt recognizes that this is a problem. While his size may prove an insurmountable obstacle to effectiveness on the road, I wouldn't totally rule out improvement from him in this respect this season. Otherwise put, if there is a way to improve, he is likely to find it.

I'm not saying Commandant is wrong about DD eventually becoming a winger, just suggesting this may not be inevitable. If he can get his +/- to even on the road while continuing to dominate at home - +17 is really remarkable for a C of his size - then I think DD will have answered every criticism and ably defended his role as a top-6 centre.

[JMMR]

Have to agree with that CC.

If DD finishes the season a +17 Habs will be a playoff team and DD will have at least 65 points.

[RedSoloCup]

Apologies didn't get to see many games to start last year but did we try Cole/Gionta/Gomez? Assuming we did but don't recall. Hate to break up our top line but if we don't add anybody to the roster maybe we give that a chance with a new coach and agree with some others that maybe DD moves to the wing alongside Pleks & Pacs, Desharnais is a poor mans St. Louis and much better suited as RW IMO. Gives us a big body power forward on each line and last chance for Gomez. Eller/Armstrong/Bourque then White/Prust/Moen.

[Commandant]

Cole and Gionta can not play on the same line. Neither works as a LW.

[RedSoloCup]

Cole and Gionta can not play on the same line. Neither works as a LW.

Cole is a Left handed shot Gio a Right, Erik spent most of his career playing LW

[Commandant]

Cole is a Left handed shot Gio a Right, Erik spent most of his career playing LW

Erik might be a LH shot, but HE HAS ABSOLUTELY NOT spent most of his career playing LW.

One of the reasons he failed so spectacularly (actually the biggest reason) was that Edmonton put him on LW.

Erik's best years have all been on the right side in Montreal and Carolina.

[Commandant]

Speaking of the Cole at LW issue.

Isn't that the same thing we did to Rene Bourque last year?

Wasn't he a RW in Calgary?

Does he work best at RW with Eller?

[RedSoloCup]

Bourque bounced around lots in Cgy but played some of his best hockey on the left side with Iggy - whether that's position or line mates hard to say

I'm up for trying anything to get him going

Along with Markov returning to form, Rene is probably one of the biggest keys to the Habs returning to respectability this season

He scores 25 it solves a lot of issues

[Commandant]

In 2010-11 when Bourque scored 27 goals, he was on the second line in Calgary.

The first line had Tanguay at LW on Iginla's line.

The only thing I don't know is if Bourque was on RW or LW of that line, but I will check at Calgarypuck and let you guys know.

[hankhab]

Its not out of the question that the guy could bounce back and have an excellent year, perhaps we shouldn't be too negative about Bourque.

[Commandant]

09-10, 27 goals, Bourque played mainly RW with Nigel Dawes at LW and Daymond Langkow at Center, he only played with Iginla on the pp.

http://www.behindthe...+24+25+26+27+28

http://www.behindthe...+24+25+26+27+28

http://www.hockey-re...1/scoring/2010/

2010-11, played mainly RW with Jokinen and Glencross and Hagman changing at LW; again PP time only with Jarome.

http://www.behindthe...6+27+28#sr=&hr=

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_on_ice_stats.php?ds=8&f1=2010_s&f2=5v5&f4=C+LW+RW&f5=CGY&f7=40-&c=0+1+3+5+8+7+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17+18+19+20+21+22+23+24+25+26+27+28#sr=&hr=

http://www.hockey-re...1/scoring/2011/

[lazy26]

09-10, 27 goals, Bourque played mainly RW with Nigel Dawes at LW and Daymond Langkow at Center, he only played with Iginla on the pp.

http://www.behindthe...+24+25+26+27+28

http://www.behindthe...+24+25+26+27+28

http://www.hockey-re...1/scoring/2010/

2010-11, played mainly RW with Jokinen and Glencross and Hagman changing at LW; again PP time only with Jarome.

http://www.behindthe...6+27+28#sr=&hr=

http://www.behindthe...6+27+28#sr=&hr=

http://www.hockey-re...1/scoring/2011/

Thanks for the research. Was Bourque given a fair opportunity on RW with the Habs? From what I can recall, he lined up at LW.

[Willey101]

Bourque spent a good portion of his career as a LWer. Alot of left hand shooters seem to excel playing that side of the ice. Problem with now is that we have Cole, Gionta, Armstrong, Bourque, White all pencilled on that side of the ice. I believe that Prust spent a significant amount of time on the right side as well.

What this means is we have a gapping hole on the left. We have Pacioretty, Moen and that's about it.

I think this is the major reason why Bourque's name keeps coming up in trades.

My guess is as soon as the Doan decision is made we'll see the hammer drop with MB either dumping salary if Doan becomes a Hab or tradding to add some salary if Doan selects elsewhere

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Truth is, if Bourque doesn't fit then trade him now. No point waiting.

We could make Bourque fit on the right side if we keep him as a third liner.

Patch - DD - Cole

Leblanc - Plekanec - Gionta

Moen - Eller - Bourque

Prust - Nokia - Armstrong

White

We could try Galchenyuk as a left winger in pre-season and maybe in his first few games up. Nothing permanent, no worries. We could try Eller in that LW role as well with Galchenyuk centering Moen and Bourque. Play around with things and see what clicks. By the start of the season we should have a good idea on who fits best in the LW role on the second line.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I have to say that I find the last few posts mordantly amusing. Now we realize that Bourque is not really a LW at all, that his best success has come on the right side. Well, MB had several opportunities to add short-term depth to our LW position this summer and either refused to pursue them or failed to sign them.

This is a problem that never should have been created in the first place - Gauthier's fault for making an absolutely abysmal, Houle-like trade for our best forward- and never should have been allowed to fester - MB's fault. What I'm afraid of now is that, having finally solved our ongoing soap opera at C, we have created a new one at LW.

Of course, it's conceivable that MB will yet find a solution before the season begins and it really starts to hurt. Problem is, he's given no sign of being particularly worried about it. If he were, then at a bare minimum a Fatendresse would be signed here, and we'd have heard serious rumblings about Whitney, Semin, etc..

He still has a few UFA options. Andrei Kostitsyn is one. Then there's longshots like Mueller. These guys aren't The Answer, but they'd represent patchwork depth who could conceivably step into a rotating top-6 role with a Bourque, who presumably will have to play on LW a good chunk of the time. Better these guys on short-term deals than a big vacuum.

It's very frustrating to have seen a problem be created and then watch as the organization does absolutely nothing, nada, zip, to try to address it. If we go into the season with this lineup, we are almost guaranteed to regret this oversight.

[dlbalr]

He still has a few UFA options. Andrei Kostitsyn is one. Then there's longshots like Mueller. These guys aren't The Answer, but they'd represent patchwork depth who could conceivably step into a rotating top-6 role with a Bourque, who presumably will have to play on LW a good chunk of the time. Better these guys on short-term deals than a big vacuum.

Mueller's off the board, he signed with Florida a while back. In terms of LW's left on the market, pickings are slim. Of the ones left, Brunette, Rolston, and Blake are among the top players available in my books.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

He still has a few UFA options. Andrei Kostitsyn is one. Then there's longshots like Mueller. These guys aren't The Answer, but they'd represent patchwork depth who could conceivably step into a rotating top-6 role with a Bourque, who presumably will have to play on LW a good chunk of the time. Better these guys on short-term deals than a big vacuum.

It's very frustrating to have seen a problem be created and then watch as the organization does absolutely nothing, nada, zip, to try to address it. If we go into the season with this lineup, we are almost guaranteed to regret this oversight.

Well, I'll first state again... it's only the end of July. Lots of time for trades. Nobody said this was the final roster.

Second, Mueller's ALL TIME goal scoring high is 22 goals. In his rookie year. He hasn't scored that much since and has been an injured mess since. Not a risk worth taking in this lineup and Florida already signed him. Kostitsyn is an idiot and there's no point to try him.

I'd honestly prefer either Leblanc or (this will make some people sick to their stomach but whatever) Moen to anyone left on free agency in the left wing spot. Hell I'd prefer Bourque in the left wing spot over Kostitsyn. I'm tired of stupid hockey players on the Canadiens. Have some brains or go play for someone else.

[Commandant]

You could take a flyer on Kristian Huselius as well. Talented but only played 2 games last year due to injury.

As for the long term problem at LW. It really is a problem.

Along with goaltending it is the weakest position in our prospect pool. Right now we are looking at Steve Quailer, Ian Schultz, Tim Bozon, and Charles Hudon as LWs with any king of NHL potential. None of them are ready.

Of course on the big club all we really have is Patches and some bottom 6 filler.

This is yet another reason why DD should eventually become a LW for us.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

You could take a flyer on Kristian Huselius as well. Talented but only played 2 games last year due to injury.

As for the long term problem at LW. It really is a problem.

Along with goaltending it is the weakest position in our prospect pool. Right now we are looking at Steve Quailer, Ian Schultz, Tim Bozon, and Charles Hudon as LWs with any king of NHL potential. None of them are ready.

Of course on the big club all we really have is Patches and some bottom 6 filler.

This is yet another reason why DD should eventually become a LW for us.

Of course, our focus on the center position it should be noted that a few of them will likely move to the wing and it's up to our development to encourage a few guys to move to the left comfortably.

DD on the LW is the right way to go with the right line combination. I'm just now starting to wonder if Bergevin looked back at Moen's play on Plekanec's line and wants to try him there. His numbers were decent before the injury.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Of course, our focus on the center position it should be noted that a few of them will likely move to the wing and it's up to our development to encourage a few guys to move to the left comfortably.

DD on the LW is the right way to go with the right line combination. I'm just now starting to wonder if Bergevin looked back at Moen's play on Plekanec's line and wants to try him there. His numbers were decent before the injury.

My bad on Meuller. But the wider point still stands.

I agree that Kostitsyn is an idiot, but my argument is that 25 goals and 25 good games per season (along with a bunch of hits) is better than zero. And as for Huselius - absolutely. We need warm bodies that can plausibly be slated to play a heap of games in the top-6.

If Bergevin thinks Moen is a top-6 forward, then our new GM is officially a moron. Assuming this not to be the case, Commandant probably has the right idea; MB is looking at the glut at C and calculating that between Leblanc, Desharnais Eller, and Gomez one of our excess C will have to shift over to LW eventually.

I can see the sense in this, but unless Galy makes the team out of camp it still doesn't help us much this season. And I don't understand why you wouldn't try to ice the best possible team provided it doesn't muck up the rebuild by tying you into bad long-term contracts (hi there, Doan). It also raises concerns about mucking up the development of guys like Eller and Leblanc who are not naturals at that position. (Desharnais will be fine no matter what happens).

This situation gives me very much the same feeling I had last September about our defence. We'd subtracted Wiz and Hamrlik and added nobody except Campoli. I was briefly able to convince myself that with a healthy Markov we'd be OK, but by and large I was very, very concerned about the vacancies back there. Now we have almost an exact replica scenario at LW, having subtracted Cammy and Kosty and added only Bourque who is not even a 'true' LW. You can see the trainwreck coming a mile away.

[DON]

I have to say that I find the last few posts mordantly amusing. Now we realize that Bourque is not really a LW at all, that his best success has come on the right side. Well, MB had several opportunities to add short-term depth to our LW position this summer and either refused to pursue them or failed to sign them.

This is a problem that never should have been created in the first place - Gauthier's fault for making an absolutely abysmal, Houle-like trade for our best forward- and never should have been allowed to fester - MB's fault. What I'm afraid of now is that, having finally solved our ongoing soap opera at C, we have created a new one at LW.

Of course, it's conceivable that MB will yet find a solution before the season begins and it really starts to hurt. Problem is, he's given no sign of being particularly worried about it. If he were, then at a bare minimum a Fatendresse would be signed here, and we'd have heard serious rumblings about Whitney, Semin, etc..

He still has a few UFA options. Andrei Kostitsyn is one. Then there's longshots like Mueller. These guys aren't The Answer, but they'd represent patchwork depth who could conceivably step into a rotating top-6 role with a Bourque, who presumably will have to play on LW a good chunk of the time. Better these guys on short-term deals than a big vacuum.

It's very frustrating to have seen a problem be created and then watch as the organization does absolutely nothing, nada, zip, to try to address it. If we go into the season with this lineup, we are almost guaranteed to regret this oversight.

Abysmal trade of best forward? When did Pacioretty, Cole or Plekanec get traded?

You guys worry too much and you are selling the new GM short, Bergevin i dont think is a dummy and knows what his line up looks like.

[Commandant]

Of course, our focus on the center position it should be noted that a few of them will likely move to the wing and it's up to our development to encourage a few guys to move to the left comfortably.

DD on the LW is the right way to go with the right line combination. I'm just now starting to wonder if Bergevin looked back at Moen's play on Plekanec's line and wants to try him there. His numbers were decent before the injury.

Bournival is another player who might end up on LW down the road.

I'm also not convinced we are 100% done for the summer, it just seems the trade and free agent market is very slow. Rick Nash took forever to move, now we are still waiting on Luongo and Bobby Ryan, and we are still waiting on Shane Doan to sign. I'm not saying the Habs will get any of those players, but I am saying its slowing down every deal out there.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

And I don't understand why you wouldn't try to ice the best possible team provided it doesn't muck up the rebuild by tying you into bad long-term contracts (hi there, Doan). It also raises concerns about mucking up the development of guys like Eller and Leblanc who are not naturals at that position. (Desharnais will be fine no matter what happens).

Bergevin and Therrien are both coming onto the team fresh. Bergevin already added three players to the roster. If you add too many to the team, you send the wrong message. With the youth on the team you need to allow them an opportunity to step up. It doesn't send a very good message to say, "Okay folks, there's no roster spots available so pre-season is just for Hamilton." Especially when you just got a third overall pick who could make the NHL this year and a former first round pick who played quite well in his time up.

Hey I wanted Jagr too but I'm trusting Bergevin on how he's handling the team. He needs to see how they perform with a fresh slate.

EDIT: Just want to toss out there that Galchenyuk himself said he can play center or left wing. So something to consider.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

All my hand-wringing is premised on the idea that we will go into the season with basically this roster. If MB swings a deal to land a LW, then that's Jim Dandy with me and I withdraw all my provisional criticisms of MB's baffling indolence on this subject.

I suppose the analogy between our current holes at LW and last season's holes on D is a bit exaggerated, inasmuch as we *do* have forwards (Leblanc, Moen, Desharnais, Bourque, even that jackass Gomez) who could conceivably be slotted into the LW position. So some sort of crazy, wing-and-a-prayer game of musical chairs may be able to get us through the season. We didn't have this luxury on D last season. But as luxuries go, this is pretty piss-poor.

We'll see what happens. All I'm saying is it doesn't look good, and could have been made to look somewhat better with fairly minimal cost.

[DON]

All my hand-wringing is premised on the idea that we will go into the season with basically this roster. If MB swings a deal to land a LW, then that's Jim Dandy with me and I withdraw all my provisional criticisms of MB's baffling indolence on this subject.

I suppose the analogy between our current holes at LW and last season's holes on D is a bit exaggerated, inasmuch as we *do* have forwards (Leblanc, Moen, Desharnais, Bourque, even that jackass Gomez) who could conceivably be slotted into the LW position. So some sort of crazy, wing-and-a-prayer game of musical chairs may be able to get us through the season. We didn't have this luxury on D last season. But as luxuries go, this is pretty piss-poor.

We'll see what happens. All I'm saying is it doesn't look good, and could have been made to look somewhat better with fairly minimal cost.

Before July 1st, i thought a top 6 was biggest hole and Bergevin's move on the more conservbative grit end i didnt see coming. But i like it and also see adding one of top puck-movers on the back-end, in Markov, as possibly adding the offense and PP fix needed to move the Habs from middle of pack in scoring to maybe top 1/3?

Again, i would also point to the improved health of 1/2 dozen players coming into camp as also being a bonus and can only help to avoid the start that happened last Oct.

As well as Yemelin/Diaz/Subban/Desharnais/Eller all being more experianced/comfortable/confident (however you want to put it). So a weakness on the left side amy be a small issue, but overall team is fairly solid.