2012-13 Habs Lineup: the Forwards

[JoeLassister]

The problem I have with splitting DD and Cole/Pax is that I don't think that DD will be successfull without playing with big guys. Playing DD with Gionta, IMO, isn't a good idea.

Playing DD with Plekanec and Pax maybe...

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Playing DD with Plekanec and Pax maybe...

It's not so much, "you need to put two bigger players with DD for him to succeed" because DD is still an empty point producer on the road. It's more that you do not want to have a line of just small players.

Plekanec is average size so DD - Plek - Cole would work. That allows for Patches - Eller/Galy - Gionta which still gives us a lot of scoring and a lot more balance. If the issue is size, replace Gionta with Bourque and keep Bourque on the right wing. It's where he excels.

If DD is moving to the wing, it's left wing. He wouldn't play with Patches and Patches on the right wing is a terrible idea.

[DON]

I think that's right.

Markov in particular is a huge factor - indeed, some of us have probably forgotten just what a gigantic difference he used to make. If he somehow stays healthy and somehow plays the way he did at his peak, then a lot of givens change, and a lot of people are likely to end up surprised at the Habs' performance. But these are big 'ifs.'

Bourque is an X-factor about which it's hard to be optimistic. But anything is possible. Or who knows, maybe Leblanc or even Galy can slot in there.

Therrien may or may not do a good job, but I actually think he will end up highly praised this season, not because of anything he'll do, necessarily, but because he'll have a team of hungry, motivated players excited by the fresh start determined to bounce back from last year's debacle. His weaknesses will only surface once that enthusiasm wears off (sometime in Year Two). I don't think coaching will be an issue this season. (Unless, perhaps, we make the playoffs and he puts Bill Lindsay out to take a key faceoff again).

In the end, though, Markov and (less importantly) Bourque are just gigantic question marks. When you're prognosticating about how a team is likely to finish, you can't just assume that those questions will be answered in a way that favours the team. The point is, well-regarded clubs don't have huge questions like: can their #1 defenceman and PP quarterback be effective over a whole season? Do they have secondary scoring?

In no way am I denying that the Habs could do well this season. It's just that objective observers would bet against it.

If ignore last 2 years, over last 5 years before those, ol Markov averaged 59points/82games, which would put him at #2 for past year and if he even can put up just a 40+ point season it would be a big bonus and 40 points is an easy target if he plays 70+ games, so even if he aint producing at 55 point level he will still help all those around him, cause he is just a very smart player.

I am not too worried at all about Bourque and look more to his career #s than 1/2 year on the bottom team in East and 20 goals is a good target; same production as Kostitsyn, people will likely bitch that he should get more or is too streaky or not this or that, but in end will be a well spent $3m.

I think Leblanc and Eller with both shine this year and continue to show why there were 1st round picks. And still think there is zero chance Galchenyuk isnt in Sarnia for 1 more year.

[DON]

The problem I have with splitting DD and Cole/Pax is that I don't think that DD will be successfull without playing with big guys. Playing DD with Gionta, IMO, isn't a good idea.

Playing DD with Plekanec and Pax maybe...

DD can play well with anyone, he is just a good playmaker and smart, like a Markov he makes rest of linemates better, wouldnt matter if he is centre or wing/1st or 3rd line.

[JoeLassister]

DD can play well with anyone, he is just a good playmaker and smart, like a Markov he makes rest of linemates better, wouldnt matter if he is centre or wing/1st or 3rd line.

I'm not sold on that yet. Maybe it is his wingers who make him better.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I'd say last season Erik Cole made DD and Patches look better because he made room for both of them. Similar to how Andrei Kostitsyn's best play on Montreal was when he was clearing room for Plekanec and Kovalev to make passes and take shots where they wanted.

That said, playing the role of primary forechecker and clearing space doesn't mean the players you work with are bad or weak. If anything, I think Pacioretty is ready to play the same role as Cole and it'd be fine to separate the two. However, I wouldn't be good with separating Cole and Desharnais just yet. I would hate to see DD's numbers without Cole on the road.

[Chris]

Hard to say what MT will do. The one thing that is good is now the habs actually have some depth and if players aren't playing well they can be moved, sat down or a decrease in their ice time. They are bigger and more physical. They have a top end talent that may or may not be ready for the NHL, and a really good draft. So in the long run the are definitely moving in the right direction.

Unfortunately i don't think it will matter this year. I have a feeling there won't be any hockey this year. Once again, the only people who will suffer are fans. I believe it will make Bettman's 3rd lockout.

[DON]

I'm not sold on that yet. Maybe it is his wingers who make him better.

So you think his wingers in the QMJHL- then ECHL- then AHL and now the NHL have all carried him everywhere he has played and excelled?

In every league he has lit it up and the NHL is no different, he had 60 some points in his 1st full season, so really dont see how you can justify being even a bit pessimistic about him and what he brings.

I do pick on him for being poor on faceoffs and simply being small, but the little bugger produces and even put him with Moan and Armstrong and i bet those 2 guys would be very happy. And he has shown a positive progression up till now, so real question is, just how good can he be?

Is he going to be as good as a Marc Savard, seems a very similar player; Martin St.Louis-type is likely just a better goal scorer and skater, but who knows? Very few players have had as good a start to career and if he puts up 70+ points this year it probably shouldnt surprise and maybe a young Gomez-like #s are too come?

[JoeLassister]

So you think his wingers in the QMJHL- then ECHL- then AHL and now the NHL have all carried him everywhere he has played and excelled?

In every league he has lit it up and the NHL is no different, he had 60 some points in his 1st full season, so really dont see how you can justify being even a bit pessimistic about him and what he brings.

I do pick on him for being poor on faceoffs and simply being small, but the little bugger produces and even put him with Moan and Armstrong and i bet those 2 guys would be very happy. And he has shown a positive progression up till now, so real question is, just how good can he be?

Is he going to be as good as a Marc Savard, seems a very similar player; Martin St.Louis-type is likely just a better goal scorer and skater, but who knows? Very few players have had as good a start to career and if he puts up 70+ points this year it probably shouldnt surprise and maybe a young Gomez-like #s are too come?

Don't forget that Desharnais is 26 years old. And yes, I do think that any center paired with Pax and Cole would have put up these numbers.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Cole goals were either all on his own our getting a garbage goal from hard work that involved Patches and DD.

I would say 50 goals total from that line wouldn't have been possible if DD wasn't a fine playmaker.

I just think he isn't as good as Plekanec. Probably equal offensively but not two way.

[Commandant]

So the Habs finally have a legit offensive line for the first time in like 20 years. Then everyone wants to break them up and see what happens. That makes perfect sense.

Kostitsyn - Plekanec - Kovalev scored more in 2007-08 than Patches - Desharnais - Cole did..... so no, this isn't our best line in 20 years. Oh and they kept that line together at the start of 2008-09, how'd that work out?

Lines sometimes lose chemistry.

Look at

Higgins - Plekanec - Kostitsyun

Zednick - Koivu - Kovalev

Higgins - Koivu - Ryder

Cammalleri - Plekanec - Kostitsyn

Dagenais - Ribeiro - Ryder

For other examples of this.

or

Ryan - Getzlaf - Perry

Kulemin - Grabovski - MacArthur

for other examples of this happening.

While the line should start the season together, its will be 5 months since they played a game... sometimes chemistry disappears for no explainable reason.

They need to find some combination of 2nd and 3rd lines who can chip in offensively. Pleks and Gionta were like oil and water last year. They will need to try different combos with Eller and Pleks.

I think the 4th line is pretty much set between Prust, Noke, Armstrong and White.

Just like Pleks and Gionta didn't work last year, it actually worked well in 2010-11 early in the year. Chemistry comes and goes, and it might work next season.

[Commandant]

The problem I have with splitting DD and Cole/Pax is that I don't think that DD will be successfull without playing with big guys. Playing DD with Gionta, IMO, isn't a good idea.

Playing DD with Plekanec and Pax maybe...

DD - Galchenyuk or Eller - Cole

Patches - Pleks - Gionta

Done

[bbp]

Does anyone have stats for how DD did without either Cole or Max, or how they did without DD?

hasn't Max's best seasons in nhl and ahl come with DD as his center? Cole had a career year this year... playing better on this line then he did with Staal, who is another big guy and would have cleared as much room as max... perhaps DD has more to do with their success then we are saying.

Watching him play he really does create a lot with the space he is given, some really dandy passes and dekes which have lead to goals.

[DON]

Does anyone have stats for how DD did without either Cole or Max, or how they did without DD?

hasn't Max's best seasons in nhl and ahl come with DD as his center? Cole had a career year this year... playing better on this line then he did with Staal, who is another big guy and would have cleared as much room as max... perhaps DD has more to do with their success then we are saying.

Watching him play he really does create a lot with the space he is given, some really dandy passes and dekes which have lead to goals.

I think Eller or Plekanec would do just as well centering those 2 and DD would do just fine on any line.

But it seems that on the road that DD could likely benefit from playing 3rd ine centre and let the 2 better defensive centres in Eller/Plekanec take the tougher match-ups?

Or have Eller at centre and Deharnais on 2nd line with Gionta? But would be a bit short at centre unless Leblanc shows he can handle it?

But will be curious to see how Therrian sees his best line combos?

[Machine of Loving Grace]

But will be curious to see how Therrian sees his best line combos?

Pretty much. Though if he breaks up the top line I can just see the Internet rage already, even if it's the right thing to do.

I'm just personally evaluating the teams depth for the top nine as so:

Left Wing: Pacioretty, Moen

Right Wing: Cole, Gionta, Bourque

Center: Plekanec, Desharnais, Eller

Nine Games or More: Galchenyuk (LW/C)

So there's a hole there and nobody wants to see Moen back in the top six. However, if you move Desharnais to a left wing role, he's immediately a top six left winger and it's now about seeing which center and right winger develops better with their left winger. The only other idea is Galchenyuk playing a full season in Montreal on the second line left wing (which spare your fingers that this will hurt his center development. Go tell me how it hurt Seguin) and that situation, while great, still prolongs the inevitable.

Eller having a breakout year would make this much easier.

[JoeLassister]

DD - Galchenyuk or Eller - Cole

Patches - Pleks - Gionta

Done

Cue Chara killing DD first thing in the morning. I don't feel DD at W. I just don't feel it.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Cue Chara killing DD first thing in the morning. I don't feel DD at W. I just don't feel it.

You seem to have a serious size bias...

Why hasn't Chara killed St. Louis yet? And Chara already killed Pacioretty, one of our biggest forwards. Don't understand your argument at all.

[JoeLassister]

You seem to have a serious size bias...

Why hasn't Chara killed St. Louis yet? And Chara already killed Pacioretty, one of our biggest forwards. Don't understand your argument at all.

It is not about being killied, but being abused along the board.

I want DD at C. Period.

He doesn't have the speed to skate around dmen, nor the shot to fire it up top corner from the circle. I just don't see how he would be a good fit at W on a top 2 line.

Sorry.

But I really like the kid where he is now, centering two big bodies and feeding them like crazy.

[Commandant]

Heres the thing, if you play hockey, you are gonna have to play along the boards.... the centre plays along the boards helping out the defence in the defensive zone. And that is where DD is being dominated, because he can't contain anyone. He's much better off digging for pucks (something he's good at) then containing opposing forwards down low.

As for playmaking off the wing... it works fine for Tanguay, Hemsky, Huselius, and other NHLers who are primarily set up men from the wing. DD is smart enough that he'd adapt.

[RedSoloCup]

No guarantee DD/Patches/Cole pick up where they left off but on the list of question marks coming into the year I'd rate it pretty low.

I'm not totally sold on Eller being a centremen, maybe he gets a shot at LW in top 6 and give Louis a shot in the 3 hole

Patches/DD/Cole

Eller/Pleks/Gio

Moen/Leblanc/Bourque

Colby/White/Prust

Galchenyuk & Gomez centreing top lines in the province of Ontario

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

DD to LW is an interesting scenario. My thing is, it's not clear that Desharnais has finished developing at C. People forget that he's only been in the league two seasons. On some level, it seems a bit unfair not to give him time to see whether he can address the weaknesses that led to his poor road performance; if this were some other, taller 25-year-old C we'd be drooling over his potential rather than permanently consigning him to the wings and assuming that he has no room to improve on last year's performance.

That being said, it certainly is hard to see how he fits into our longer term plans at C (unless he finds another level and approaches PPG production or something). When Galy develops, or even if Eller starts producing some actual points and showing some consistency on offence, either Desharnais or Pleks will have to give way. Nonetheless it just feels to me that the story of Desharnais at C has not yet played itself out. He's earned the chance to show us that he can continue to improve in that slot.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

You're correct that we're probably jumping the gun with DD and the truth is, I hear Habs brass talk more about Eller being a center/wing guy. That may be why they haven't pushed on the left wing position because they consider Eller being a guy that can fill it. Leblanc would definitely fit trying for third line center, but RedSolo should know that Nokia is our fourth line centerman.

[bbp]

You're correct that we're probably jumping the gun with DD and the truth is, I hear Habs brass talk more about Eller being a center/wing guy. That may be why they haven't pushed on the left wing position because they consider Eller being a guy that can fill it. Leblanc would definitely fit trying for third line center, but RedSolo should know that Nokia is our fourth line centerman.

I was hoping he was press box tbh

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I was hoping he was press box tbh

He wasn't bad for us last season, just you forgot he existed. At 53% he is our best faceoff man. He kind of sucked on the road but for a cheap fourth liner he's gold. We could possibly flip between him and White at center but White isn't as good as him. Of course, there's also putting Scott Gomez on the fourth line but let's not think about that.

[JoeLassister]

He wasn't bad for us last season, just you forgot he existed. At 53% he is our best faceoff man. He kind of sucked on the road but for a cheap fourth liner he's gold. We could possibly flip between him and White at center but White isn't as good as him. Of course, there's also putting Scott Gomez on the fourth line but let's not think about that.

Gomez will play 2nd line.