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2012-13 Habs lineup....the Defence


hankhab

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I like the D core if the right things happen.

The right things:

- Subban doesn't get hurt and keeps improving at his current rate

- Markov plays at least 60 games

- Kaberle shows up for at least 60 games

- Emelin shows the same smarts he did in the last 20 games of the season

- Gorges stays healthy and reliable

- Cube proves to be a solid hand for the third pairing

That's all they need to be in front of Price.

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I see us as way too soft. Nobody among that group can clear the front of the net.

True. For example, the Bruins have 4 dmen more physical than anyone on our squad.

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I see us as way too soft. Nobody among that group can clear the front of the net.

Yes i totally agree, a very soft group, with Bouillion the only grit if push came to shove.

But i guess why Prust/White/Moan were some of first to get signed.

And there is size in AHL which cant develop fast enough, but next year should see promotion of one or more of them and there are always injuries on d.

But on other hand, they are smaller but quicker than most d-cores and Markov/Subban and Kaberle all move the puck well, so i aint too displeased at all with group.

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True. For example, the Bruins have 4 dmen more physical than anyone on our squad.

But physical also generally equates to slower, evidenced by Plekanec and Desharnais normally making Chara look like a pylon every game, they just chip puck by him and they are gone.

So always are pros and cons to size, big or small.

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True, we don't have a brutal crease-clearer, but Bouillon, Emelin, and Subban can all lay on the body pretty hard. Maybe I'm crazy, but of this top 6 only Kaberle qualifies as bona-fide soft. One out of six does not a soft d-corps make.

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True, we don't have a brutal crease-clearer, but Bouillon, Emelin, and Subban can all lay on the body pretty hard. Maybe I'm crazy, but of this top 6 only Kaberle qualifies as bona-fide soft. One out of six does not a soft d-corps make.

Markov/Yemelin/Gorges/Kaberle/Subban are too small/soft to stand up for Price and drop the gloves if need be. Subban is almost outmatched by a small lightweight in Marchand and Gorges will try but too small,

Yemelin had his face crushed in Russia, so neither he, Kaberle nor Markov will ever drop the gloves (which aint their job,they know it and is fine with me also).

Bouillon is game and will fight above his weight class, but he is not a big hitter/crease clearer.

So no way you cant say they arnt a soft group, if not the weakest in the league, but they make up for it in other ways.

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Personally I don't want 6 guys who are like mcQuaid but we need 1 or 2 of them.

We need a big strong guy like Komisarek, Rivet, Quintal to be paired with a better skating guy. Reason why Gorges and Gill had success or Markov and Komisarek.

I would like to see us add a guy like Matt Green or at a reduced price even a guy like Kubina.

We don;t need a goon just someone large enough to help clear Price' vision

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Emelin, Subban and Bouillon are far from soft. None of them fight, is that what we're getting at? Emelin and Subban laid the body on as well as anyone last year. As for 'clearing the crease', well, you can't do that anymore, no matter how big you are, its a penalty. Just take a look at all those guys standing in front of the goalies all the time, from both teams, thats why its so hard to get shots through. I concur that Weber, Kaberle and Diaz are soft, Markov will have to play carefully while he gets confidence in his knee back. But, yes, I would also like to see at least one more defensive minded defender back there. We have to be careful, though, no need to sign anyone long term or make any foolish trades, we have a monster d-man in Hamilton this year, next year we'll see Tinordi with the Habs, all 6'7 of him.

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Markov/Yemelin/Gorges/Kaberle/Subban are too small/soft to stand up for Price and drop the gloves if need be. Subban is almost outmatched by a small lightweight in Marchand and Gorges will try but too small,

Yemelin had his face crushed in Russia, so neither he, Kaberle nor Markov will ever drop the gloves (which aint their job,they know it and is fine with me also).

Bouillon is game and will fight above his weight class, but he is not a big hitter/crease clearer.

So no way you cant say they arnt a soft group, if not the weakest in the league, but they make up for it in other ways.

We've upped the toughness amongest the forwards, they can take care of any glove droppings that are necessary.

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We've upped the toughness amongest the forwards, they can take care of any glove droppings that are necessary.

I think we have gone to the other extreme in getting tougher. Do we really need 4 wingers in the bottom 6 like Moen, White, Armstrong and Prust??? Frankly, I'd like to have at least one skilled winger in that group.

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I think we have gone to the other extreme in getting tougher. Do we really need 4 wingers in the bottom 6 like Moen, White, Armstrong and Prust??? Frankly, I'd like to have at least one skilled winger in that group.

Do you really think all 4 of those guys will be playing?

Will we have 0 forwards in the press box?

Or maybe, just maybe, one of white/armstrong is the 13th forward (probably white), with one of our skilled youngsters winning a job on the third line with Eller or the second line pushing Bourque to the third.

If those 4 are all in the lineup it means we are carrying exactly 12 forwards, which virtually no teams do.

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Do you really think all 4 of those guys will be playing?

Will we have 0 forwards in the press box?

Or maybe, just maybe, one of white/armstrong is the 13th forward (probably white), with one of our skilled youngsters winning a job on the third line with Eller or the second line pushing Bourque to the third.

If those 4 are all in the lineup it means we are carrying exactly 12 forwards, which virtually no teams do.

What has me worried is that we will see Moen, Prust, Armstrong actually finding themselves in the top 6 like Moen and Darche did. With Therrien as coach, I see that as a distinct possibility. We will have to see how things shape up i training camp, but I think having even two of Moen, Armstrong, White and Prust in the lineup is more then sufficient. So isn't one spare enough???

If we were going to add a 4th line type, I would have preferred to have added a centre with size and a good face-off winning percentage. I don't see any other centres on our lineup that is really going to ease the burden on Pleks.

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Why are people saying we don't have any soft defensemen? Emelin is a straight-up tank and Subban loves to play rough as well, as does Boullion. He may not be able to take many guys off their feet, but he is not the kind of player you wanna go into the corner with if you can avoid it. Gorges and Markov may not be physical, but they are smart enough technically and positionaly that they really don't have to be. There's a reason why no one complained about Lidstrom not being 'physical' enough'.

Anyways, smart money says Tinordi will jump to Montreal before the season is over anyways.

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Guys there is a difference between fighting and playing soft. I am not saying we need fighters on D, I am saying we need bigger bodies who can protect the front of the crease and clear space for Price. Guys like Emelin and SUbban are great at the perimeter and open ice hitters but when bodies get in front of Price they struggle.

Look at the difficulties players had to get to the front of the net when they had to try to get around players like Komisarek or Gill. These players rarely fought but made it difficult for the opposotion. Now big opposing players have to get by the likes of Markov, Kaberle, Diaz, Weber and even Bouillon. Not exactly difficult to do.

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Guys there is a difference between fighting and playing soft. I am not saying we need fighters on D, I am saying we need bigger bodies who can protect the front of the crease and clear space for Price. Guys like Emelin and SUbban are great at the perimeter and open ice hitters but when bodies get in front of Price they struggle.

Look at the difficulties players had to get to the front of the net when they had to try to get around players like Komisarek or Gill. These players rarely fought but made it difficult for the opposotion. Now big opposing players have to get by the likes of Markov, Kaberle, Diaz, Weber and even Bouillon. Not exactly difficult to do.

Do they really struggle? Not being sarcastic, I just haven't really noticed this as a huge problem. I think both Emelin and PK are strong as bulls and will only improve in this dimension of the game. It's fine to celebrate the many strengths Gill brought to the table, but we shouldn't romanticize his contribution - he was solid in terms of handling the slot, but hardly a brutal crease-clearing monster.

It's not all about being a hulk anyway. Markov matured into a defenceman who could handle himself pretty well in his own end. In the 'new NHL,' positioning has as much to do with it as strength and meanness. And finally, if our D has problems down low, then it is up to Therrien to get his forwards to systematically help out. One advantage of actually having an NHL-calibre bottom six is that we will probably be able to do this much more effectively than before.

Not saying our D-corps is good - it's not. But its being 'soft' is not the primary issue to my mind. I could be proven wrong, of course.

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They are an average bunch right now. they have some strengths and weaknesses. A healthy Markov all year will help.

They have real good young prospects who in the next few years will make the defense a strength.

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We've upped the toughness amongest the forwards, they can take care of any glove droppings that are necessary.

I know, i mentioned earlier that Moan-White-Prust were some of first to get signed, and i also said i am happy with the group of 8 and love Bouillon's grit.

But to say this isnt a soft group is a bit off and what i was disagreeing with. Subban and Yemelin might be feared hitters, but that is it, if Price is run over a forward will need to answer the bell and stick up for Price, which may be fine, but a bigger guy like Nash/Pateryn/Tinordi/Ellis will be a bonus soon.

Which is why many were for signing Allen, me included, but Bouillon will suffice for 1 more year till bigger reinforcements develop.

If Bergevin can trade Kaberle, that might be super to free up a 3rd pairing spot for Diaz and would only ask for need to ask for picks/prospects back. But i am fine with Kaberle staying, he is a top scoring d-man at a reasonable cost.

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Do they really struggle? Not being sarcastic, I just haven't really noticed this as a huge problem. I think both Emelin and PK are strong as bulls and will only improve in this dimension of the game. It's fine to celebrate the many strengths Gill brought to the table, but we shouldn't romanticize his contribution - he was solid in terms of handling the slot, but hardly a brutal crease-clearing monster.

It's not all about being a hulk anyway. Markov matured into a defenceman who could handle himself pretty well in his own end. In the 'new NHL,' positioning has as much to do with it as strength and meanness. And finally, if our D has problems down low, then it is up to Therrien to get his forwards to systematically help out. One advantage of actually having an NHL-calibre bottom six is that we will probably be able to do this much more effectively than before.

Not saying our D-corps is good - it's not. But its being 'soft' is not the primary issue to my mind. I could be proven wrong, of course.

I completely agree about Gill. He was solid on the PK and used his size effectively to flop around like a fish to block shots and the passing lanes, but I can't seem to recall him using his size to lay out a hit or clearing the front of the net. He makes the friendly giant look like Mr. T.

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Maybe it's just perspective but I recall pretty much every game watching Gill battle and push the opposition from the front of the net. He also positioned himself in ways to prevent guys from getting to those scoring areas. Players like Emelin and Subban are more physical along the boards but from what I remember, again maybe just perspective, they rarely battled guys in front. Instead they allowed the opposition to stand there and would go for the block instead.

I truly hope it is an element we address

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Maybe it's just perspective but I recall pretty much every game watching Gill battle and push the opposition from the front of the net. He also positioned himself in ways to prevent guys from getting to those scoring areas. Players like Emelin and Subban are more physical along the boards but from what I remember, again maybe just perspective, they rarely battled guys in front. Instead they allowed the opposition to stand there and would go for the block instead.

I truly hope it is an element we address

I know i'm being repetitive since I mentioned it above, but in todays NHL, you pretty much have to stand there with opposing forwards and hope the shots get blocked. I don't like it, but moving a player without the puck is interference, and cross checking him down is, well, crosschecking. I much prefer the old days, when we had Craig Ludwick body slamming opposing forwards and clearing the crease, but the fact is, in most games, especially during power plays, there are pretty much six guys between the goaltender and the shooter.
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I know i'm being repetitive since I mentioned it above, but in todays NHL, you pretty much have to stand there with opposing forwards and hope the shots get blocked. I don't like it, but moving a player without the puck is interference, and cross checking him down is, well, crosschecking. I much prefer the old days, when we had Craig Ludwick body slamming opposing forwards and clearing the crease, but the fact is, in most games, especially during power plays, there are pretty much six guys between the goaltender and the shooter.

Thre are ruels in places but they are rarely called. There are still crazy battles in front of the goalie on pretty much every offensive posession.

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Thre are ruels in places but they are rarely called. There are still crazy battles in front of the goalie on pretty much every offensive posession.

yes i totally agree and many smaller forwards still end up on their ass and unless blatent x-check, or 2-hander to ankles, all usually is allowed and i dont think much different around the net.

But, the blue paint now is irrelevant and means zero, way too much goalie interferance and shoving of a covered puck under goalie, or actually shoving goalie into net or too the side and still count goal??

But again the refs have little (no?) integrity and are total puppets of owners via puppetmaster Bettman telling them what to call more or less of.

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