dlbalr Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Games through January 14th have been cancelled. I'm a little surprised that they wiped out two weeks this early, I'd have went with one week at most. Theoretically, a deal done around the 28th/29th could yield a season starting January 7th/8th. I get the sense we're not going to see any negotiations until the new year and then have one more marathon attempt starting around the 4th/5th that will make or break the year. I shudder at the thought of having to come up with 9-10 more months of filler material for the site (I'm at a loss for ideas now short of one or two things), this better get resolved to save the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Games through January 14th have been cancelled. I'm a little surprised that they wiped out two weeks this early, I'd have went with one week at most. Theoretically, a deal done around the 28th/29th could yield a season starting January 7th/8th. I get the sense we're not going to see any negotiations until the new year and then have one more marathon attempt starting around the 4th/5th that will make or break the year. I shudder at the thought of having to come up with 9-10 more months of filler material for the site (I'm at a loss for ideas now short of one or two things), this better get resolved to save the season. I think this was about giving Fehr the deadline he seems to want. I think this is it. Either agree to a deal to start the season mid-January, or the next cancellation is the season. Frankly, I am not optimistic. Fehr doesn't want a deal, he wants to challenge the cap in court and turn this sport into Baseball (out of control salaries, 5 teams who can win, bankrupt teams, etc). He doesn't seem to understand that this is a gate driven sport and even the football profit sharing (really sharing the national TV revenue) doesn't apply to the NHL. I expect we will watch this play out in the courts, who will either uphold the NHL (and the other major sports leagues rights), or kill all unions in pro-sports (if they rule for the players, every other league will have this in their next contract talks). This will effect all pro sports, not just the NHL, one way or another. On the bright side, a court case will give you lots of filler for this site.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 On the bright side, a court case will give you lots of filler for this site.... Not really. Lockout stuff isn't too popular, no one wants to read about these two sides bickering anymore, it's down to 'let me know when it's over' for most. Although, if all contracts were deemed null and void by the courts, there would be a whole new world of speculation as to who wants to go where and for how much. That would be something...but games are still better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Baseball players get 47% of revenue. And 9 different teams have won the last 12 world series, with no team winning more than 2. Not exactly the non-competitive, salaries out of control league you paint it as. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCPetit Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 The NHL has made a new offer to the player's association yesterday night. Let's see how it unfolds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 The NHL has made a new offer to the player's association yesterday night. Let's see how it unfolds... A number of commentators seem to have been thinking that one or the other side has to make a move, and once that happens, they're close enough that a deal will happen. And they've cancelled games into mid-January, which means we're nearly down to the 11th hour. Those are reasons for optimism. Conversely, some think Fehr doesn't want a deal, period. More to the point, without pretending certainty about this, I think they've still got a few weeks before the season is unsalvageable. So off the top of my head I'd expect probably one more round of 'OMG they've almost got a deal!!!...oh, wait, it's all falling apart, we're going down into darkness, etc., etc., etc.' Those are reasons for pessimism. Personally, I think more damage is done to the NHL brand by these mood swings - from hope to crashing disappointment - than by the lockout per se. People (including myself) were really demoralized after that last debacle. A cone of media silence, punctuated now and then by anodyne press releases saying that negotiations are challenging but proceeding, etc., would be healthier for the product...albeit impossible to sustain in an internet age, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 I've been on the players side the biggest part of this negotiation. The NHL won last lockout, the players need to win this round to make the next one, yes there will be a next one, smooth and easy. Whether that be by the release of Bettman, or just by showing they can't be pushed around, the players need to win this round. That being said, from all the info I got from the previous round of negotiations where Fehr came out saying they pretty much have a deal then it going south, this proposal seems to be almost what the players were trying to get. If this proposal is rejected by the PA and they still continue to negotiate, when it's this close, it really does prove Bettman's point that Fehr doesn't really want a deal, just wants to beat the NHL. If it is rejected, with this much damage to the sport, and the owners have moved substantially from the start, Fehr needs to go, as soon as humanly possible. Don't get me wrong, Bettman should be in the same cab or preferably one a long time ago. It just goes to show what happens when 2 people who care nothing about hockey negotiate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 The NHL has moved a bit here by allowing 1 compliance buyout that would count outside the cap system. In other words, Gomez could be bought out without any cap effect whatsoever. Instead of a 5% variance like they were demanding, it's now 10% with a 6 year term limit (up from 5) and a bonus year for re-signing their own players. There aren't too many things that jump out as potentially problematic - the 10 year CBA with 8 year opt-out isn't what the players liked (8 and 6 was their offer) and I don't see them liking the cap benefit recapture applying to existing contracts. A $60 million cap for 2013-14 also seems a bit arbitrary, I could see the NHLPA trying to push on that while they may try to tweak the language on the compliance buyout to get that away from the players' share. Still, it's a good step, let's hope this is the first one to a settlement. The highlights of the 300 page proposal: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/21004/highlights-of-nhls-dec-27-proposal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I've been on the players side the biggest part of this negotiation. The NHL won last lockout, the players need to win this round to make the next one, yes there will be a next one, smooth and easy. Whether that be by the release of Bettman, or just by showing they can't be pushed around, the players need to win this round. That being said, from all the info I got from the previous round of negotiations where Fehr came out saying they pretty much have a deal then it going south, this proposal seems to be almost what the players were trying to get. If this proposal is rejected by the PA and they still continue to negotiate, when it's this close, it really does prove Bettman's point that Fehr doesn't really want a deal, just wants to beat the NHL. If it is rejected, with this much damage to the sport, and the owners have moved substantially from the start, Fehr needs to go, as soon as humanly possible. Don't get me wrong, Bettman should be in the same cab or preferably one a long time ago. It just goes to show what happens when 2 people who care nothing about hockey negotiate. That's one way to look at it. The other, and I think more realistic, way to look at it is to say that he wants to get the best possible deal for his players, which is exactly what he is paid to do. Several reports have it that the owners have told Bettman in no uncertain terms that they do not want a lost season. They have made significant moves in the players' direction. This is exactly what Fehr expected and exactly what he wanted. He has them by the balls, and is squeezing. I have no problem with that at all. That's what bargaining is. Now if he miscalculates and we lose the season so he can extract some additional concession, well, then I'll be the first in line to stone him. But as far as I can see this entire lockout has been an exercise in the owners trying to smash the union - except that the union has refused to smash. So with serious negotiating only having begun a round or two ago, we're down to the brass tacks. There may be one more blow-up on the way to Shangri-La, but my guess is we'll have a season, and the NHLPA will have made an important statement about not being patsies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Mike Spector had another nice article in Sportsnet. I still believe a deal will get done or we will line up all the combattants for the firing squad. This doesn't get done, they all should be gone. I think it is clear that Fehr will not be bullied and the league will have to negiate. I think the league made a grave tactical error in trying to dictate to Fehr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCPetit Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Mike Spector had another nice article in Sportsnet. I still believe a deal will get done or we will line up all the combattants for the firing squad. This doesn't get done, they all should be gone. I think it is clear that Fehr will not be bullied and the league will have to negiate. I think the league made a grave tactical error in trying to dictate to Fehr. There is no tactical error Blue Kross. Look at the deal the players will sign. The NHL will be the big winner. The owners will gain flexibility and their costs will be down by a big percentage. Of course, this is not a complete surrender by the player's association, but the owners will be more than happy to get this deal done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 There is no tactical error Blue Kross. Look at the deal the players will sign. The NHL will be the big winner. The owners will gain flexibility and their costs will be down by a big percentage. Of course, this is not a complete surrender by the player's association, but the owners will be more than happy to get this deal done. 100%. That's one of the things that gets overlooked by the anti-Fehr crowd. This entire process has been predicated on the NHL fixing its problems entirely on the backs of the players (rather than through, say, some mix between rollbacks and revenue sharing). The NHLPA has - rather charitably IMHO - accepted that premise all along. Rather than seek significant gains, or even a decent revenue-sharing system whereby rich teams like the Habs share some of their cap-inflated profits with the cruddy franchises, the players have been trying to work out a deal that contains the damage they're expected to absorb. Yet owners have acted as though their doing so is some unimaginable affront to natural justice. What's so frustrating is that it's just like the last lockout, where you can see the basic parameters of a settlement way in advance of when it actually happens. Last time, everyone knew going in that the end result would be a salary cap and some compensatory relaxation of restrictions on player mobility. Unfortunately it took a year of scorched-earth warfare to get there. This time, everyone knew the players' share of revenue would shrink to something like 50%. Yet once again a poisonous culture of mutual loathing prevented good faith bargaining until the last possible moments. My somewhat irrational hope is that, with the NHLPA having shown the owners that the fantasy of smashing the union is just that, a more reasonable attitude may prevail next time around. But I'm not betting the rent on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 That's one way to look at it. The other, and I think more realistic, way to look at it is to say that he wants to get the best possible deal for his players, which is exactly what he is paid to do. Several reports have it that the owners have told Bettman in no uncertain terms that they do not want a lost season. They have made significant moves in the players' direction. This is exactly what Fehr expected and exactly what he wanted. He has them by the balls, and is squeezing. I have no problem with that at all. That's what bargaining is. Now if he miscalculates and we lose the season so he can extract some additional concession, well, then I'll be the first in line to stone him. But as far as I can see this entire lockout has been an exercise in the owners trying to smash the union - except that the union has refused to smash. So with serious negotiating only having begun a round or two ago, we're down to the brass tacks. There may be one more blow-up on the way to Shangri-La, but my guess is we'll have a season, and the NHLPA will have made an important statement about not being patsies. I completely agree, and as I said the PA has to win this lockout. The NHL must lose this one to make the next one mutual. If the PA is viewed by the NHL as a pushover, the next time the CBA is up the NHL will threaten lockout and try to squeeze more out of the players, because history has shown it works. All I was saying is that this NHL proposal is very close to what the PA countered last set of negotiations. The only direction the PA can go is backwards, and that is not negotiating. I'm just saying that if the PA rejects this proposal, it shows Fehr does not care about a hockey season, at this point it's just beating Bettman, which in the 11th hour isn't what should be going through his head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I completely agree, and as I said the PA has to win this lockout. The NHL must lose this one to make the next one mutual. If the PA is viewed by the NHL as a pushover, the next time the CBA is up the NHL will threaten lockout and try to squeeze more out of the players, because history has shown it works. All I was saying is that this NHL proposal is very close to what the PA countered last set of negotiations. The only direction the PA can go is backwards, and that is not negotiating. I'm just saying that if the PA rejects this proposal, it shows Fehr does not care about a hockey season, at this point it's just beating Bettman, which in the 11th hour isn't what should be going through his head. Yeah, a blanket 'rejection' would be a terrible move, no question. The NHLPA should be working with the proposal, but suggesting or demanding changes is not the same thing as 'rejecting' it (as I think you agree?) I just hope the owners don't take the same attitude they've hitherto taken every time they make a move, which is to righteously declaim that the offer is non-negotiable, a 'seamless whole,' that they will 'die on this hill,' yada yada yada, and act as if any counter-offer is by definition a mortal insult. That whole Righteous Indignation routine is really, really tiresome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 The sense I got from reading the columns for those following this is that there is some room to work from...just not a lot of room. It doesn't appear to be a take it or leave it offer. I think Bettman said earlier that the time for give-and-take was over; interestingly enough, that I believe is what will get this settled. I believe the PA would be wise to accept some of the elements as is rather than trying to haggle over each one. Pick a few to work on and give-and-take on the other issues. If that happens, I think we'll see progress. If they try to tweak everything, who knows how it will be interpreted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 There is no tactical error Blue Kross. Look at the deal the players will sign. The NHL will be the big winner. The owners will gain flexibility and their costs will be down by a big percentage. Of course, this is not a complete surrender by the player's association, but the owners will be more than happy to get this deal done. We all agree that NHLPA is taking a hit here. It is clear to me what they are not giving up is their right to negotiate. What I am suggesting is a tactical error is this what you get type of approach(this is our last offer,take it or leave it). That will not cut it. I believe this thing would have been done long ago, had the NHL not taken that tact. It could yet prove to be fatal. Nobody is arguing who the winner is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Mitch with an rant on all the lockout coverage in the media. http://lastwordonsports.com/2012/12/30/quiet-the-lockout-talk-im-trying-to-watch-hockey/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I don't care for Alan Walsh but this should be in a nutshell why this lockout is a farce. Read from bottom to top: http://i.imgur.com/RprFT.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 It looks like the league will take time to read the proposal this time, that's got to be encouraging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 It looks like the league will take time to read the proposal this time, that's got to be encouraging. I'm hopeful but I've got a gut feeling we have another bump in the road coming. Perhaps not enough to knock this off the rails but enough to lower everyone's hopes once again. Not summarily rejecting the offer is progress though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I would expect either a CBA agreed on today or the season cancelled in the near future. The players have until midnight to dissolve the union. If there is no CBA, the PA has to weigh it's options on whether the NHL will continue to negotiate with the union past today, or the union should dissolve and players start filing anti-trust suits against the owners, which will no doubt set everything back. At the same time if the union stays together, the NHL may backtrack on their offers because they have power in their court again. Given how far the trust has slipped between the two sides, I doubt the PA will trust the NHL enough to not dissolve the union. Today is going to be an interesting day for sure. Happy new year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I'd be shocked if it gets done today. For one, they're not meeting until ~5 PM and all reports suggest they're still a ways apart on the key issues. Just because the Disclaimer of Interest (DOI) deadline from the players is tomorrow doesn't mean that if they don't exercise it then that the option is gone forever. There's always the ability to have another vote at another time. The fact that the PA is even at the table suggests to me that the DOI is not going through at this time. Although I would imagine it's legally permitted, the optics would be terrible. Jan. 1, NHLPA is actively negotiating CBA, deal doesn't get done. Jan. 2, Union leadership files DOI since deal isn't done. The NHL in their preemptive suit says that the NHLPA is bargaining in bad faith. That timeline listed above could more or less define bargaining in bad faith. "We (the NHL) didn't give them exactly what they (the NHLPA) demanded and so less than 24 hours after they were a willing party to negotiations, they are walking away from the table. Proposals exchanged by both sides in the past week have yielded positive progress which we believe would continue at the negotiating table. By issuing the DOI, the leadership of the NHLPA is clearly demonstrating that they are not actively committed to achieving a resolution in this Collective Bargaining process which is tantamount to bargaining in bad faith. Accordingly, we request that you (the courts) deny the DOI and thereby certify the legality of the lockout." I could see something like that sent to the NY courts (although in much fancier legal-speak and in more detail) and some sort of statement from the league saying that the "players are walking away from the game we all love." I think the NHLPA would be hard-pressed to spin the PR battle in their favour given that they're at the table today. That certainly doesn't mean they can't go through with this tomorrow but I'd be surprised if they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHIW_HWL Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww63Q36965g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Drop dead date---- It would seem to me if we were to only play half the season, that 16 teams have not earned the right to be in the playoffs. I could see dropping that safety net, where teams can play middling hockey and back into the playoffs, and only allow eight teams in. This could add a couple of weeks to the drop dead date or better still add 8-10 games to the regular schedule. It would force teams to play for keeps now, because there is little room for mediocrity. My preference is they just get a deal done soon, but what i am saying is that there are ways around the drop dead date and still play meaningful hockey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 "Anyone who tries to pin it onto one side is foolish." - James Duthie Yeah... no. The NHL is locking out the players. It ain't the players locking out the NHL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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