EHIW_HWL Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 "Anyone who tries to pin it onto one side is foolish." - James Duthie Yeah... no. The NHL is locking out the players. It ain't the players locking out the NHL. 1994 (MLB) had a big effect on the lockout... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 1994 (MLB) had a big effect on the lockout... The NHLPA and NHL could have started the season with a one year agreement that there would be no strike. The NHL didn't even think to ask about pursuing this option. The NHL knew the only leverage they have is missed paycheques and a lockout, and thats the route they took. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Sportsnet is reporting that the NHL and PA have agreed on two compliance buyouts in 2013-2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Sportsnet is reporting that the NHL and PA have agreed on two compliance buyouts in 2013-2014. Very good news indeed. Between Gomer and one other bad contract, that should resolve most of our problems. Am I the only one who worries about that Markov contract? The guy has 5 points in 18 KHL games. Unless he comes back strong, that could look as bad as Gomez's deal for the next two seasons in the new cap environment. Part of me wonders whether we might be better off buying him out and spending his dough on a UFA d-man this coming summer. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 The players chose not to dissolve the union to show a sign of good faith to continue negotiations. The NHL responds to this act of good faith by backtracking on one of it's previous statements, and something important to the player, the pension. After the last major blow-up the NHL reported that they told the players if they agreed to 3 points, they could sign a CBA and the pension could be hashed out afterwards. Now since the PA didn't dissolve, making this whole process more complicated than it needed to be in light of progress, the NHL took away their offer with the pension. The NHLPA will re-vote and you better believe if it passes again the union will be dissolved without hesitation. The PA made a huge leap in trust by not dissolving and the NHL abused that trust at the first chance they had. The season is already lost folks. If the negotiations were as close as many believe the PA would not be trying to issue another vote. The NHL is hiding behind "unknown liabilities" to not hash out the pension plan. What a joke Bettman and crew are. EDIT: Just read the NHL is putting in penalties for hiding HRR. Since all HRR go through the league and owners, they are putting in a clause to penalize fellow owners for hiding money from eachother. How are you supposed to negotiate with the PA when you don't trust your own side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 More ludicrousness from what LeBrun accurately calls the most embarrassing labour stoppage in sports history. No surprise at all in seeing the owners act like the utter scumbags they are. However, many commentators warned us that there might be one more blow-up before the whole matter is settled. I guess just enough time remains that the two sides can find a way to outrage each other one more time. Then after a few days' stewing, they'll come back and sign a deal. Really, the wise move is just to ignore it all. 'Get back to me when you're ready to play hockey' - and until then, they can go blow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Very good news indeed. Between Gomer and one other bad contract, that should resolve most of our problems. Am I the only one who worries about that Markov contract? The guy has 5 points in 18 KHL games. Unless he comes back strong, that could look as bad as Gomez's deal for the next two seasons in the new cap environment. Part of me wonders whether we might be better off buying him out and spending his dough on a UFA d-man this coming summer. Just a thought. Two things to consider is that scoring in the KHL is not like in the NHL and Markov has been playing 22+ minutes per game since coming back from the rib injury. In other words there's more to it than basic numbers. Plus he's been fighting people. Which is cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 In light of what happened in the last couple of days, who else believes the damage to the sport may have a far greater impact than the NHL can imagine? The Disclaimer of Interest is being voted on again, will be wrapped up tomorrow. After the stunt the NHL just pulled because the union didn't decertify, once this vote passes, and it will, the union will dissolve almost immediately. This will stop all negotiations until after the drop-dead date of January 11th. Season is going to be cancelled. This is pretty much guaranteed at this point. Now what about the bigger issues. Once the union dissolves, every player can sue it's owner for up to 3 times their contract. Every player probably will. The problem comes with European players, like Ovechkin. They will sue and get their money, feel betrayed and not come back to the NHL but play in the KHL instead. Owners will take major hits and look to the NHL to recoup their losses. Some owners will get out of the business, Bettman fired (not a bad thing really). Phoenix will no longer be an NHL city, with the ongoing negotiations just to keep them there right now. After major hits are taken in the team's finances investors will pull out and people with money invested that can't be recouped will be after the NHL itself to pay it back. Which means more money the NHL will want in the next CBA to make up for what they lost, starting this process all over again. none of this includes the hundreds of thousands of fan, maybe even millions that won't return because it is a disgrace of a league. TV contracts will be pulled and the team will have to pay penalties for not delivering their product. If new TV contracts are agreed on, they will be far less than they currently are because of the history, some won't return. I know it's not true, but it seems like Bettman and crew wants to destroy hockey in North America. their doing everything they can to make a bad situation worse. /rant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 In light of what happened in the last couple of days, who else believes the damage to the sport may have a far greater impact than the NHL can imagine? The Disclaimer of Interest is being voted on again, will be wrapped up tomorrow. After the stunt the NHL just pulled because the union didn't decertify, once this vote passes, and it will, the union will dissolve almost immediately. This will stop all negotiations until after the drop-dead date of January 11th. Season is going to be cancelled. This is pretty much guaranteed at this point. I still doubt they go ahead and do this, especially not right away. The ability to have that hammer so to speak is what they're looking for to keep Bettman and company honest. Frankly, I think there's little point in disclaiming until after January 11th. If the NHL formally cancels the season, then by all means go ahead, it would make lots of sense. To go ahead early and put the final dagger in the season is just asking for the fans to turn on the players. As much as people on here are for the most part on one side or the other, there are a lot who are equally mad at each and will really lash out against the side that kills the season. I still don't see the PA wanting to bring that on themselves unless things really take a turn for the worse in the next day or two (which, given the way this has gone so far, is certainly possible). As for that 'bump in the road' that most pundits (and I'm sure most of us too) have expected, we may be seeing it now. The HRR battle that ultimately yielded the same penalties as were in the last CBA wasted a day and turned the mood sour to the point where they didn't meet yesterday to discuss the other issues and apparently may not today either. They can only afford to wait so long so I'm hoping this is that bump and not something worse later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I still doubt they go ahead and do this, especially not right away. The ability to have that hammer so to speak is what they're looking for to keep Bettman and company honest. Frankly, I think there's little point in disclaiming until after January 11th. If the NHL formally cancels the season, then by all means go ahead, it would make lots of sense. To go ahead early and put the final dagger in the season is just asking for the fans to turn on the players. As much as people on here are for the most part on one side or the other, there are a lot who are equally mad at each and will really lash out against the side that kills the season. I still don't see the PA wanting to bring that on themselves unless things really take a turn for the worse in the next day or two (which, given the way this has gone so far, is certainly possible). As for that 'bump in the road' that most pundits (and I'm sure most of us too) have expected, we may be seeing it now. The HRR battle that ultimately yielded the same penalties as were in the last CBA wasted a day and turned the mood sour to the point where they didn't meet yesterday to discuss the other issues and apparently may not today either. They can only afford to wait so long so I'm hoping this is that bump and not something worse later. Agreed. That's the thing - blowing up the league is not in anybody's interest, whether it be players or owners (or fans). This hiccup shows that force is the only language the owners understand, but it's one thing to possess a nuclear bomb, another to use it. I continue to believe that the likeliest scenario is a few days of sullen stewing, followed by a final bout of negotiating that saves the season, simply because this is what is ultimately in the best interest of all concerned. I don't rule out the possibility of everything going catastrophically wrong - I just think it's the less likely of the two scenarios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Apparently the NHLPA has two conditions for them to accept a 10 year term: - The opt-out would be at 7 years instead of 8 - Minimum salary must be $800,000 by year 9 I can see that second one being a concern frankly for both sides. Over the course of the past CBA, the minimum went from $450,000 to $525,000, an increase of about 17%. To bring it to $800,000 would be a raise of a little over 52% (phased in over the years of course). The owners won't like that. On the flip side, I can see a scenario where raising it that much will start to squeeze out the middle-salary guys. Every team will want to carry a few minimum salary players to offset the higher paid ones. I can see this being an issue that carries over late into next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 The bigger issue is the owners changing wording on HRR to benefit themselves the day after the union didn't decertify. You would think a dirty, sneaky, underhanded trick like this would be the last either side would want to pull off at this stage. Oh well, the season is lost and Bettman will probably go along with it. The other part of good news is this is going to be unrecoverable for Phoenix, so at least the team can go somehwere it can make money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 If we do lose a whole season, are we as fans coming back? I'm not so sure, myself. I can handle losing three months to this lunacy, but for them to sacrifice a whole season on the altar of what is basically nonsense really would be a massive betrayal. At that point, I will begin looking for more congenial things to do with my time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 If we do lose a whole season, are we as fans coming back? I'm not so sure, myself. I can handle losing three months to this lunacy, but for them to sacrifice a whole season on the altar of what is basically nonsense really would be a massive betrayal. At that point, I will begin looking for more congenial things to do with my time. I speak for myself, but I'm 100% back. I will even try to attend the very first game if I can. Hockey is important in my life at the point where I somewhat build my weekly schedule around Habs games. But I'm not waiting after the NHL to provide me fun, I don't feel like this business owes me anything. I don't believe that this entertainement form is or will be eternal and should not go on strike or lockout. I don't expect that my favorite restaurant will be in business forever neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 The bigger issue is the owners changing wording on HRR to benefit themselves the day after the union didn't decertify. You would think a dirty, sneaky, underhanded trick like this would be the last either side would want to pull off at this stage. Oh well, the season is lost and Bettman will probably go along with it. The other part of good news is this is going to be unrecoverable for Phoenix, so at least the team can go somehwere it can make money. From what I read/heard, the wording didn't change at all from the 288 page proposal sent last week. It appears they when they went to finalize it, the PA noticed the omission. I'd agree the owners tried to pull a fast one (a dumb decision too) but it wasn't because of the DOI not being filed as the language was in the proposal from the week before. If we do lose a whole season, are we as fans coming back? I'm not so sure, myself. I can handle losing three months to this lunacy, but for them to sacrifice a whole season on the altar of what is basically nonsense really would be a massive betrayal. At that point, I will begin looking for more congenial things to do with my time. I'll be back. Heck, after the amount of time I've put in on the site during the lockout (which will have to continue if this goes the distance), I'd be nuts not to. Also, it appears today is the day. Either we're nearing a deal or the DOI is getting filed, according to reports. It appears the pension issue is now once again resolved (or is close to, depending on the reporter) and the mediator has gotten both sides back together. 6 PM is the voting deadline for the DOI so it'll be a few hours before that avenue becomes available again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Kypreos via sportsnet is suggesting a tentative deal could be in place within 24 hours. I think a lot of people are confusing the issue around decertification. Today at six is when that vote is supposed to be finalized. There is no suggestion that I know of that suggests Fehr needs to or will play that card before the season deadline runs out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Kypreos via sportsnet is suggesting a tentative deal could be in place within 24 hours. I think a lot of people are confusing the issue around decertification. Today at six is when that vote is supposed to be finalized. There is no suggestion that I know of that suggests Fehr needs to or will play that card before the season deadline runs out. That's what I noted in my post above, 6 PM is the earliest they could go that route. I believe the logic is that if talks were nearing a point where the PA realized a deal at this rate wasn't going to happen, that they could go early with that and see if the NHL relented on a few things to avoid going to the courts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyhasbeen Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 http://www.thehockeynetwork.com/forum/nhl-national-hockey-league/general-nhl-discussion/general-nhl-talk/31678-breaking-news-reports-surfacing-that-the-nhl-lockout-is-over-this-could-really-be-it-folks.php Is it over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 http://www.thehockeynetwork.com/forum/nhl-national-hockey-league/general-nhl-discussion/general-nhl-talk/31678-breaking-news-reports-surfacing-that-the-nhl-lockout-is-over-this-could-really-be-it-folks.php Is it over? There have been scattered reports all afternoon that it's done but those who are actually out there are saying they're getting closer but nothing imminent as of yet. That said, Minnesota just pulled Mikael Granlund (who is NHL bound when this is done) from the warmups of their AHL team to avoid any risk of injury. So far, it sounds like good news but we're not out of the woods yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I think it goes right down to the wire on the 11th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCPetit Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I think it goes right down to the wire on the 11th. It will be settled before that. We are very close to an agreement IMO. Anyhow, we will have a hockey season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Decertification scared the NHL. Especially the owners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCPetit Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Decertification scared the NHL. Especially the owners. I am not sure about that. It's far from certain that a court would rule in favor of the union. But, as was the case with the NBA, the strategy appears to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I am not sure about that. It's far from certain that a court would rule in favor of the union. But, as was the case with the NBA, the strategy appears to work. Its the uncertainty that scares the owners.... Its a 50/50 chance, but the results if you lose are disasterous, and these guys just aren't that kind of gambler. As for the 11th, I still say we go right to the wire... each side will squeee and claw for every last penny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 If you look at team websites like canadiens.nhl.com they are currently showing a 2012-2013 schedule for games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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