Burke out in Toronto....

[brobin]

Apparently Burke was fired today. Shame, he was an excellent GM at keeping the leafs in the basement.

[Habsfan]

I was about to say the same thing. Here's to another 8 years with the leafs out of the playoffs!

[dlbalr]

This was a shocker to me. I could see them firing him back in September but at this stage? Heck, he and his whole team were at the Bulldogs game last night, Burke himself was the 1st intermission interview on the Hamilton broadcast, I managed to catch the end of it.

I now have to wonder, now that Dave Nonis is in: Would he still be getting the job if Rick Dudley, now with the Habs, was still there?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

On a human level, this has to be a very strange and ambivalent feeling for Nonis. He is the personal beneficiary of his longstanding ally and mentor getting his throat cut. 'Hey, we just axed your best friend...here's his job.'

Happy for Nonis in a way, though...I thought he got a bit of a raw deal in Vancouver, notwithstanding that Gillis proved to be a shrewd choice.

[dlbalr]

On a human level, this has to be a very strange and ambivalent feeling for Nonis. He is the personal beneficiary of his longstanding ally and mentor getting his throat cut. 'Hey, we just axed your best friend...here's his job.'

Oddly enough, they in a way somewhat switched roles. Burke is still with the Leafs as an advisor which in large part is what Nonis was (he was an assistant GM but their other assistant, Claude Loiselle, handles a lot of the day-to-day assistant duties).

[BlueKross]

I am wondering if they are protecting themselves against another Kesseline deal? Luongo you can have him but you have to give up your first-born?

[brobin]

Bob mcGowan didn't just throw Burke under the bus, he backed it up and spun the wheels on him....

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Y'know, I agree the Kessel deal was a bad one, but I wonder if it's been blown out of proportion. Kessel got 84 points and 37 goals last year - production vastly better than any Montreal player - and was atop the scoring leaderboard for much of the season. He's only 24 years old to boot. I certainly agree that Seguin has a higher ceiling (one reason the trade wasn't good), but you're basically talking about two elite young players at this stage. Only if Seguin becomes a superstar and Armstrong a top-4 defender does the trade really become atrocious. Neither has happened yet.

There are many worse trades than the Kessel deal. MacDonagh for Gomez, for instance. Ribeiro for Ninimaa, for instance.

He also got Grabovski for free (another fleecing), added van Riemsdyk, Lupul, Phaneuf, and several other useful players. Had he been able to add a good goalie, the Laffs probably would have made the dance last year.

Burke failed to get TO into the playoffs and did deserve to be let go based on the overall results. But I don't think he was a disaster by any means and part of me thinks the fair thing to do would have been to let him ride out this season to see whether the team he assembled, which almost put it together for a playoff berth last season, could take that next step. I think he got a bit of a raw deal.

[brobin]

In my opinion, he screwed up a few deals, like a certain defence man we all know, but what killed him the most was the failure to sign a real goalie. Give them a top ten goalie and they make the playoffs at least a few of those years.

Off the ice, being at war with most of the reporters from the two media companies that just bought his team isn't a way to job security. Media companies are a bit sensitive on media image. Go figure.

[DON]

Y'know, I agree the Kessel deal was a bad one, but I wonder if it's been blown out of proportion. Kessel got 84 points and 37 goals last year - production vastly better than any Montreal player - and was atop the scoring leaderboard for much of the season. He's only 24 years old to boot. I certainly agree that Seguin has a higher ceiling (one reason the trade wasn't good), but you're basically talking about two elite young players at this stage. Only if Seguin becomes a superstar and Armstrong a top-4 defender does the trade really become atrocious. Neither has happened yet.

There are many worse trades than the Kessel deal. MacDonagh for Gomez, for instance. Ribeiro for Ninimaa, for instance.

He also got Grabovski for free (another fleecing), added van Riemsdyk, Lupul, Phaneuf, and several other useful players. Had he been able to add a good goalie, the Laffs probably would have made the dance last year.

Burke failed to get TO into the playoffs and did deserve to be let go based on the overall results. But I don't think he was a disaster by any means and part of me thinks the fair thing to do would have been to let him ride out this season to see whether the team he assembled, which almost put it together for a playoff berth last season, could take that next step. I think he got a bit of a raw deal.

2 elite young players, Seguin and Hamilton + 2nd rounder currently in AHL and you are fooling yourself if you dont think Hamilton will be a top 4 d-man. He is 6'5" and the #1 scoring d-man in the OHL, He maybe a top 4 d-man as a friggin teenager.

And what has Seguin done lately, led his NHL team in scoring as a 19/20 year old and just tore up the Swiss league with 20 goals in 20 games.

I think i would take Bruins side in that deal.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

2 elite young players, Seguin and Hamilton + 2nd rounder currently in AHL and you are fooling yourself if you dont think Hamilton will be a top 4 d-man. He is 6'5" and the #1 scoring d-man in the OHL, He maybe a top 4 d-man as a friggin teenager.

And what has Seguin done lately, led his NHL team in scoring as a 19/20 year old and just tore up the Swiss league with 20 goals in 20 games.

I think i would take Bruins side in that deal.

Sorry, I said Armstrong, but meant Hamilton. And I agree it was a dodgy deal. My point is just that as of right now, its awfulness has been overstated.

Anyone who reads my posts will know that I never bank on a young player until he has actually delivered in the NHL. Right now, Hamilton looks awesome but has done exactly diddly-squat in the bigs. Like I said, if he does indeed become a top-4 defender and Seguin does indeed become a superstar - which he has not yet done, whatever his triumphs in the Swiss league - then the deal shifts over into 'awful' territory. Cripes, if Seguin gets 85 points this year and so does Kessel, the deal remains a saw-off unless and until Hamilton charges into the top-4. If you take Kessel seriously as an elite young player, I still don't see how you fire Burke because someday that deal might be proven really bad - it's firing for hypotheticals. Gainey made several deals I would regard as decidedly worse.

[mineral]

I swore Dave Nonis was going to cry in that press conference. He isn't happy at all about taking that new job.

[BlueKross]

I swore Dave Nonis was going to cry in that press conference. He isn't happy at all about taking that new job.

If this is about Luongo as some sports sites have suggested, it has the stench of upper management making hockey decisions. That is not only toxic but fatal. Ask me how Bud Adams made out with Vince Young and Pacman Jones.

[Commandant]

Sorry, I said Armstrong, but meant Hamilton. And I agree it was a dodgy deal. My point is just that as of right now, its awfulness has been overstated.

Anyone who reads my posts will know that I never bank on a young player until he has actually delivered in the NHL. Right now, Hamilton looks awesome but has done exactly diddly-squat in the bigs. Like I said, if he does indeed become a top-4 defender and Seguin does indeed become a superstar - which he has not yet done, whatever his triumphs in the Swiss league - then the deal shifts over into 'awful' territory. Cripes, if Seguin gets 85 points this year and so does Kessel, the deal remains a saw-off unless and until Hamilton charges into the top-4. If you take Kessel seriously as an elite young player, I still don't see how you fire Burke because someday that deal might be proven really bad - it's firing for hypotheticals. Gainey made several deals I would regard as decidedly worse.

If Seguin scores the same points as Kessel... the bruins win in getting the younger player, with the smaller cap hit, who is further away from Free agency.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

If Seguin scores the same points as Kessel... the bruins win in getting the younger player, with the smaller cap hit, who is further away from Free agency.

Argh! Yes, yes, it's a bad deal, I never said it wasn't!! But it seems to have acquired this mythic status as some cataclysmic disaster, and I don't think it is...at least not yet.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Argh! Yes, yes, it's a bad deal, I never said it wasn't!! But it seems to have acquired this mythic status as some cataclysmic disaster, and I don't think it is...at least not yet.

The Gomez trade also wasn't some cataclysmic disaster and worked in the short term.

I actually consider the Gomez trade better because Montreal didn't have any great center options on the UFA at the time. Burke could have signed Cammalleri if he was at the ACC on Free Agency day instead of chasing a Sedin dream in Sweden (and then claiming it was for Gustavsson which is even worse). Cammalleri was offended that Burke wouldn't meet him in person and sent Nonis instead. That would have meant his top six sniper set, FROM TORONTO, while still keeping his draft picks. Might have got him 500K cheaper than Montreal too, but nope. Burke ego.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The Gomez trade also wasn't some cataclysmic disaster and worked in the short term.

I actually consider the Gomez trade better because Montreal didn't have any great center options on the UFA at the time. Burke could have signed Cammalleri if he was at the ACC on Free Agency day instead of chasing a Sedin dream in Sweden (and then claiming it was for Gustavsson which is even worse). Cammalleri was offended that Burke wouldn't meet him in person and sent Nonis instead. That would have meant his top six sniper set, FROM TORONTO, while still keeping his draft picks. Might have got him 500K cheaper than Montreal too, but nope. Burke ego.

Whew, I can't agree with that. It's true that if Scott Gomez had remained Scott Gomez - that is to say, an elite playmaker and exciting rushing forward good for 60+ points per season - the trade would be merely a dubious one rather than cataclysmically bad. But as it turns out, and for reasons I can't quite fathom, Gomez has instead degenerated into a marginal NHLer. So we gave up a young, cheap, high-quality top-4 defender - something this team could really use - for a $7 million cap drain that literally adds little to no value to our lineup. It's hard to imagine a worse outcome in a cap era.

I see why Gainey did what he did. I supported it at the time (with the caveat that IF MacDonagh became a top-4 defender, then it would become a poor deal; never did I imagine that Gomez would cease to be an NHL-calibre forward), But there is zero way to argue that, based on results, that trade has not been an abject disaster. By contrast, Toronto got back an elite young sniper who is already arguably better than Cammy will ever be, so whatever else happens that trade is not a disaster yet in terms of actual on-ice results.

As for the other stuff, look, Burke went for the Sedins and I don't blame him. They would have changed his franchise in a way Cammalleri never would have,

[Commandant]

Cammalleri not joining the Leafs had nothing to do with Nonis negotiating instead of Burke, and had everything to do with Burke not being willing to pay as much as Gainey offered.

As for Burke going to Sweden, I agree with CC. He tried to go after the best possible UFAs that summer, not his fault it didn't happen.

MOLG, you'll remember from our old board that I was very high on going after the Sedins that summer, and I was very low on the Gomez trade which I predicted would be a disaster from day 1... as even at his best, Gomez was gave us like the 12th best Centre in the Conference

[Colin]

Pick any young player who can score 35+ and ask the GM what it'll take to acquire that asset. Everyone looks at the Kessel deal *after the fact* when the deal was actually done with the hopes that Kessel would aid the Leafs immediately in getting much further up the standings. Burke didn't know it was going to be a Seguin-esque pick, he was thinking that Kessel's play would elevate the Buds to a more middling level in the standings - and one would assume he thought the next first would be even lower. The trade was perfectly reasonable if you're a GM looking for a centrepiece figure around whom you build your club. He got that piece and paid the price.

And before everyone coughs at that, remember the packages rumoured for Lecavalier and some of the other high-end talent Montreal has ostensibly pursued.

Burke's real problem was his unreal loyalty to a coach that had no business being behind the bench. When it became obvious that the team was just not going to perform, Burke needed to make a change in that department and get someone who could, you know, teach a little defence? Instead, he stuck by his man and let a run-and-gun team with the average age of 12 and the talent of the ECHL have a go in the NHL. Big duh - massive failure. You get a good defensive coach in and we all know that a team like that can trap the best teams into oblivion, and while there was never the talent to even make the playoffs in Kessel's first year, there was more than enough... wait for it... WAIT FOR IT... truculence (angry high-five!) to keep that team in fighting position.

[Commandant]

If you are the GM.... it is PART ONE OF YOUR JOB to realistically assess the talent on your team.

In the Kessel trade Burke failed MISERABLY in the biggest part of his own job.

Trading first round picks to get a 35 goal scorer is the Last Move, or close to the Last Move you make when you are rebuilding your franchise. Its not the first move you make.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Pick any young player who can score 35+ and ask the GM what it'll take to acquire that asset. Everyone looks at the Kessel deal *after the fact* when the deal was actually done with the hopes that Kessel would aid the Leafs immediately in getting much further up the standings. Burke didn't know it was going to be a Seguin-esque pick, he was thinking that Kessel's play would elevate the Buds to a more middling level in the standings - and one would assume he thought the next first would be even lower. The trade was perfectly reasonable if you're a GM looking for a centrepiece figure around whom you build your club. He got that piece and paid the price.

And before everyone coughs at that, remember the packages rumoured for Lecavalier and some of the other high-end talent Montreal has ostensibly pursued.

Burke could have tried an offer sheet, which would have cost him a third round pick instead of two firsts but was so opposed to them, he decided to trade with Boston instead.

"Burke didn't know it was going to be a Seguin-esque pick" is ridiculous seeing how the Leafs had continued to fall in the standings and now would be without several major scorers (Sundin especially) and hadn't actually solved their goaltending problem yet. Goaltending was their biggest problem in the Ferguson era. I can't remember the season but they were 6th in Eastern Conference goal scoring but bottom three for goals allowed. It was a terrible diagnosis of the Leafs team and that's why everyone jumped on it.

And yes, the package for Lecavalier was absolutely ridiculous and had the NHL not stopped the deal, Montreal would have been stripped of major assets for years. It would have been a terrible trade.

Remember, Toronto's biggest issue was goaltending and where was Burke on opening free agency day? In Sweden, trying to sign "The best goaltender not in the NHL" in Jonas Gustavsson. He banked on THE MONSTER to solve their goaltending issues and ignored about how much scoring disappeared from the team when Sundin, Antropov, Potofcoffee, Blake, Stajan, Kaberle, Kubina, McCabe, etc. were traded or left.

At least Leaf fans will have a GM who is actually in Toronto for UFA day now.

[Commandant]

He went to Sweden to try and Sign the Sedins.

Gillis also went to Sweden.

The difference was Gillis got the signatures on the contracts and Burke didn't.

Burke deserves a lot of criticism, but going to Sweden wasn't a mistake IMO.

[Colin]

"Burke didn't know it was going to be a Seguin-esque pick" is ridiculous seeing how the Leafs had continued to fall in the standings and now would be without several major scorers (Sundin especially) and hadn't actually solved their goaltending problem yet. Goaltending was their biggest problem in the Ferguson era. I can't remember the season but they were 6th in Eastern Conference goal scoring but bottom three for goals allowed. It was a terrible diagnosis of the Leafs team and that's why everyone jumped on it.

So what I think you're saying here is that Burke was ridiculous because he should have seen that adding a 30+ goal guy to the lineup without taking anything out was not going to change the Leaf fortunes and that they were probably going to get a very high pick regardless?

I do agree that goaltending was (and is) an ongoing Leaf issue.

[Commandant]

So what I think you're saying here is that Burke was ridiculous because he should have seen that adding a 30+ goal guy to the lineup without taking anything out was not going to change the Leaf fortunes and that they were probably going to get a very high pick regardless?

I do agree that goaltending was (and is) an ongoing Leaf issue.

He had already taken out A LOT of scoring without replacing it at the previous trade deadline. So yes, it was ridiculous to think he was adding a 30 goal scorer without weakening his lineup and forgetting the guys he moved out the previous year, and loss of Sundin.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

So what I think you're saying here is that Burke was ridiculous because he should have seen that adding a 30+ goal guy to the lineup without taking anything out was not going to change the Leaf fortunes and that they were probably going to get a very high pick regardless?

I do agree that goaltending was (and is) an ongoing Leaf issue.

"Without taking anything out"

He took out Pavel Kubina, Nik Antropov and Dominic Moore, replacing them with Mike Komisarek, Phil Kessel and Wayne Primeau. More goals out than in. He also continued to rely on Gustavsson/Toskala after they allowed 34 goals in 8 games. That 7-2 blow out in Boston in December should have been the bell toll for the goalies but Burke waited until JANUARY 31 to finally shake up his team. You know, January. The month in which Toronto lost 12 of 15? Toronto had only six wins going into December yet Burke continued to rely on the back-end.

But wait, let's goto January 31. In one day, Burke adds Dion Phaneuf and JS Giguere. Good additions for the club. What does he lose? Close to 50 goals in Jason Blake (10), Matt Stajan (16), Ian White (9) and Nik Hagman (20). Then nearing deadline gives up Ponikarovsky (19) and Stempniak (14) for another 33 goals. And what was brought in to replace that? Not much. Toronto was lucky that Grabovski did come into his own the next year.

Burke was ridiculous for thinking he could continue trading pieces of a TEAM that scored a lot of goals as long as he added an INDIVIDUAL who could score a lot of goals himself. And then, he was ridiculous for thinking that NOT SOLVING HIS GOALTENDING ISSUE would mean his pick would not be so high because HE ADDED A GOAL SCORER, SOMETHING THE TEAM DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAVE ISSUE DOING.

See where I'm getting at here?