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Douglas Murray Signed


nhfarber
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If Tinordi has a good camp and if everyone stays healthy, we will have quite the logjam after Emelin is back.

Markov, Subban, Gorges, Diaz, Yemelin, Murray/Bouillon seems a good amount? And if Pateryn or Tinordi show enough and grab the #6 slot, that shouldnt be a problem, or will be a good problem for Habs.

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So are the D-pairings:

Subban - Markov

Diaz - Gorges

Murray - Bouillon

Drewiske

Tinordi and Beaulieu start the year in Hamilton?

I disagree.

Gorges - Subban

Markov - Tinordi

Murray - Diaz

Bouillon (Drewiske)

Bouillon and Murray split the 6/7 role. Every pairing has a puck mover and grit.

Subban gets a dependable partner that he can trust to stay behind while PK works magic. Tinordi gets the Markov Effect. Diaz gets partnered with either a Ram MK II or a Stridsvagn 103.

If Tinordi can't handle top 4 workload, then I don't know what to do. It is really important that Murray play with somebody who can skate. A pairing of any of Bouillon/Tinordi/Murray will get eaten alive by speed.

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I disagree.

Gorges - Subban

Markov - Tinordi

Murray - Diaz

Bouillon (Drewiske)

Bouillon and Murray split the 6/7 role. Every pairing has a puck mover and grit.

Subban gets a dependable partner that he can trust to stay behind while PK works magic. Tinordi gets the Markov Effect. Diaz gets partnered with either a Ram MK II or a Stridsvagn 103.

If Tinordi can't handle top 4 workload, then I don't know what to do. It is really important that Murray play with somebody who can skate. A pairing of any of Bouillon/Tinordi/Murray will get eaten alive by speed.

I like this. I never considered a Markov - Tinordi pairing before. I know he's not the same player now, but when you consider what Markov did for Komisarek's game, that pairing might be perfect for the Habs and Tinordi's development.

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I disagree.

Gorges - Subban

Markov - Tinordi

Murray - Diaz

Bouillon (Drewiske)

Bouillon and Murray split the 6/7 role. Every pairing has a puck mover and grit.

Subban gets a dependable partner that he can trust to stay behind while PK works magic. Tinordi gets the Markov Effect. Diaz gets partnered with either a Ram MK II or a Stridsvagn 103.

If Tinordi can't handle top 4 workload, then I don't know what to do. It is really important that Murray play with somebody who can skate. A pairing of any of Bouillon/Tinordi/Murray will get eaten alive by speed.

Not sure you even want to set Tinordi up to possibly fail, which is chance you take playing him 20+minutes/night.

And if speed is an isue, Pateryn is more mobile and likely more NHL ready right now than Tinordi anyways.

Just dont see the need for any AHL d-man with or without Yemelin, with Murray on-board now.

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Yep, plus Tinordi is a LD, Let him play and be successful on his correct side. There will be injuries.

I like what MB has done overall. Turning the team to the younger players after this season while being competitive,

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Not sure you even want to set Tinordi up to possibly fail, which is chance you take playing him 20+minutes/night.

And if speed is an isue, Pateryn is more mobile and likely more NHL ready right now than Tinordi anyways.

Just dont see the need for any AHL d-man with or without Yemelin, with Murray on-board now.

Eh... it was Tinordi playing in the playoffs, not Pateryn. But we'll know more in training camp.

My worry is that Murray without a mobile defenseman is universally considered a liability at this point. Am I wrong in considering Diaz our 2nd most mobile behind Subban?

Murray and Diaz better be joined at the hip, in my opinion.

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Eh... it was Tinordi playing in the playoffs, not Pateryn. But we'll know more in training camp.

My worry is that Murray without a mobile defenseman is universally considered a liability at this point. Am I wrong in considering Diaz our 2nd most mobile behind Subban?

Murray and Diaz better be joined at the hip, in my opinion.

Well Beaulieu skates incredibly but NHL ready then yeah, Diaz would probably be it.

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When everyone's healthy (Emelin could be back around December), Montreal now has eight d-men on one-way deals plus the youngsters like Tinordi, Beaulieu, Pateryn, and Nygren waiting in the wings. If you're Marc Bergevin, do you take the chance at that point to move one of the extra bodies out or would it be better to hold onto the extra depth, particularly given the Habs' penchant for injuries?

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When everyone's healthy (Emelin could be back around December), Montreal now has eight d-men on one-way deals plus the youngsters like Tinordi, Beaulieu, Pateryn, and Nygren waiting in the wings. If you're Marc Bergevin, do you take the chance at that point to move one of the extra bodies out or would it be better to hold onto the extra depth, particularly given the Habs' penchant for injuries?

Can never have enough d-men.

Markov, Bouillon and Murray all will likely be gone next year.

Habs weakest spot now seems to be 1 too many small top forwards. But may need to toss in d-prospect with DD to get back a bigger top 9 forward upgrade?

But am fairly satisfied with present roster and Bouillon/Murray contracts would be easy to move/waive/sit in pressbox I think, if Tinordi and Beaulieu shine in Hamilton in the fall?

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I like the signing on so many levels. As much as we want to see the kids play in the show, there's absolutely no rush at all. At this point Tinordi and Beaulieu need to master the AHL, they both struggled heavily in the first part of last season. Tinordi in particular needs to be comfortable to the point where he can be physical on an AHL level before playing full-time. Even PK spent a full season in Hamilton. You think of all the great defensemen in the NHL, and most of them spent considerable time in the minors. The only exceptions I can think of are the Drew Doughty/Chris Prongers. Even Ryan Murray the #2 pick in the draft spent the entire year in the AHL, but he did have injury issues, if I recall.

Let's see-

Subban-1 full year in Hamilton

Slava Voynov-Parts of 5! season in the AHL

James Wisniewski-2 seasons and change in the AHL

Dennis Seidenberg-Three seasons in the AHL

Braydon Coburn-1.5 seasons in the AHL

Dan Boyle-2 seasons in the AHL

Kevin Bieksa-1.5 seasons in the AHL

Duncan Keith-2 seasons in the AHL

All of these guys are top pairing dmen comparable to Tinordi/Beaulieu. It's hard to be patient, but they need much more seasoning.

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I like the signing on so many levels. As much as we want to see the kids play in the show, there's absolutely no rush at all. At this point Tinordi and Beaulieu need to master the AHL, they both struggled heavily in the first part of last season. Tinordi in particular needs to be comfortable to the point where he can be physical on an AHL level before playing full-time. Even PK spent a full season in Hamilton. You think of all the great defensemen in the NHL, and most of them spent considerable time in the minors. The only exceptions I can think of are the Drew Doughty/Chris Prongers. Even Ryan Murray the #2 pick in the draft spent the entire year in the AHL, but he did have injury issues, if I recall.

I've always been a fan of having prospects 'play their way' out of the AHL. As I've noted already, I think Tinordi can do that this year if he gets the chance. A quick note on Ryan Murray too, he only played junior last year, he was too young for the minors.

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Quick notes on Murray:

- Our WWI column, which I'm sure you've all been anxiously awaiting for, is now online: http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=3173

- Murray will wear #6 with the Habs, continuing a recent trend of depth players wearing that jersey (Ninnimaa, Kostopoulos, and Spacek in recent years).

- There are unconfirmed reports out there that 1/3 of his salary is coming via a signing bonus. I don't think that's the case but the talk is out there.

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Another reason that we needed a signing like this is that we don't know how Emelin will play after his return. If November came around and we were counting on him to be our physical anchor on D right after a significant knee injury we might be asking for trouble. It could take a while for him to be comfortable again.

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OK, I'll buck the trend here:

Murray is a waste of cap space by MB. Worse yet, he might play 15 mins per night.

That's the big difference between Parros and Murray? They can both add much needed toughness. But Parros can ride pine on the 4th line and play 5 mins and rack up a couple of 5 min penalties.

The 3rd d-pairing is far more important than the 4th line.

Murray is slow and getting slower, and his stats show that he is amongst the very worst veteran dmen in the NHL. I won't start citing the stats or cutting and pasting graphs, because the tone above seems to be hostile to such approaches. Yet the fact is those stats reveal that, increasingly over the past 3 seasons, when Murray is on the ice his team gets hemmed up in their own end, pounded with shots, and scored on more often then when he is not on. He happened to be on excellent +/- teams the past couple of years (Sharks, Pens) and was nonetheless a minus. His PK stats are also bad - he is not a good penalty killer. And his fenwick and corsi numbers are ugly.

But like I said, forget stats. Just look at his speed and imagine Markov towards the end of last season (getting burn right, left and centre) and imagine slower, and without ANY of the amazing offensive upside Markov still brings. That's Murray.

Sure, he can hit (if he can catch a guy) and he can fight. But you do not want a dman playing 15 or more minutes a night costing your team goals and games. That's what will happen if Murray plays for the Habs, and that is why Therrien will not play him very much, which is why Bergevin just wasted cap space.

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If Douglas is even a little faster than ole skillzy Gill was.. Im happy.

He adds that Emelin factor.. and when Emelin is back they'll have some interesting bottom pairing options depending on opponent.

I was seriously praying for Fistric..

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Murray is slow and getting slower, and his stats show that he is amongst the very worst veteran dmen in the NHL. I won't start citing the stats or cutting and pasting graphs, because the tone above seems to be hostile to such approaches. Yet the fact is those stats reveal that, increasingly over the past 3 seasons, when Murray is on the ice his team gets hemmed up in their own end, pounded with shots, and scored on more often then when he is not on. He happened to be on excellent +/- teams the past couple of years (Sharks, Pens) and was nonetheless a minus. His PK stats are also bad - he is not a good penalty killer. And his fenwick and corsi numbers are ugly.

I think most people here are completely fine with advanced stats. They help tell the story of a player.

But I have a problem with people who live and die by them solely. (Berkshire and most of his EOTP crew come to mind.)

Murray may suck based on Fenwick and Corsi, but that doesn't stop Montreal from needing a tough S.O.B who can clear the crease.

Corsi and Fenwick don't take into account team need. They may say Ian White would put up better possession numbers and Montreal would spend more time in the offensive end with him on the ice. Great. He's butter soft and we have 4 guys who already bring what he brings. He ain't gonna help this team.

Great teams can have terrible Corsi players play for them. Dave Bolland has the 7th worst team-adjusted Corsi rating of 2013. He scored the Stanley Cup winning goal. Waste of cap space?

You know what stat I like? It is 100% guaranteed that Douglas Murray is going to catch a very good player from the Boston Bruins with his head down.

And I can't ing wait, because the team needs it.

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It seems Murray is one-dimensional. To echo Trizzak, I think that's OK, because we *absolutely* require that one dimension on the blueline. No one thinks he's the savior. It's a matter of crossing our fingers that he can be just adequate enough in other areas that he can use his toughness in a way that helps us. But seeing that he was a regular on the Sharks, commanded picks at the deadline, and attracted some interest this summer, suggests that it's not completely crazy to hope he can function as the patch-up job we need him to be until Emelin gets back.

Also, we still have Tinordi kicking around if Murray proves to be utterly washed up. I'm much more comfortable with two candidates to play that role on the back end rather than one. And when Emelin comes back, we'll have three. Depth is key. This is not a waste of cap space.

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Not a waste in the sense that they can give him a shot, and as CC calls it, he's a 100% patch-job. There's obviously hope he can be a bit more, but if he adequately holds the fort until Emelin comes back, then the signing is a success. If he's absolutely putrid, waive him and send him down. His 1.5 mil salary is hardly prohibitive. A much better move than MB sitting on his hands doing nothing (which we mostly would have indicted him for if the defence was weak to start the year.)

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It seems Murray is one-dimensional. To echo Trizzak, I think that's OK, because we *absolutely* require that one dimension on the blueline. No one thinks he's the savior. It's a matter of crossing our fingers that he can be just adequate enough in other areas that he can use his toughness in a way that helps us. But seeing that he was a regular on the Sharks, commanded picks at the deadline, and attracted some interest this summer, suggests that it's not completely crazy to hope he can function as the patch-up job we need him to be until Emelin gets back.

Also, we still have Tinordi kicking around if Murray proves to be utterly washed up. I'm much more comfortable with two candidates to play that role on the back end rather than one. And when Emelin comes back, we'll have three. Depth is key. This is not a waste of cap space.

got to agree and really like signing, basically a much bigger tougher Bouillon, albeit with the speed of a Rick Green, which is fine by me and very low risk and Mr. Price should love having more grit post whistle. Even Chara gets turned inside out by smaller quicker players, is price you pay for size.

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got to agree and really like signing, basically a much bigger tougher Bouillon, albeit with the speed of a Rick Green, which is fine by me and very low risk and Mr. Price should love having more grit post whistle. Even Chara gets turned inside out by smaller quicker players, is price you pay for size.

This thread has now referenced Rick Green and Craig Ludwig! That in itself justifies the signing :halm:

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OK, I'll buck the trend here:

Murray is a waste of cap space by MB. Worse yet, he might play 15 mins per night.

That's the big difference between Parros and Murray? They can both add much needed toughness. But Parros can ride pine on the 4th line and play 5 mins and rack up a couple of 5 min penalties.

The 3rd d-pairing is far more important than the 4th line.

Murray is slow and getting slower, and his stats show that he is amongst the very worst veteran dmen in the NHL. I won't start citing the stats or cutting and pasting graphs, because the tone above seems to be hostile to such approaches. Yet the fact is those stats reveal that, increasingly over the past 3 seasons, when Murray is on the ice his team gets hemmed up in their own end, pounded with shots, and scored on more often then when he is not on. He happened to be on excellent +/- teams the past couple of years (Sharks, Pens) and was nonetheless a minus. His PK stats are also bad - he is not a good penalty killer. And his fenwick and corsi numbers are ugly.

But like I said, forget stats. Just look at his speed and imagine Markov towards the end of last season (getting burn right, left and centre) and imagine slower, and without ANY of the amazing offensive upside Markov still brings. That's Murray.

Sure, he can hit (if he can catch a guy) and he can fight. But you do not want a dman playing 15 or more minutes a night costing your team goals and games. That's what will happen if Murray plays for the Habs, and that is why Therrien will not play him very much, which is why Bergevin just wasted cap space.

Advanced stats are great, the reason Berskshire slurps donkey schlong, is not just the fact that he pastes graphs from other sites, and regurgitated the definitions of said stats like he invented standard deviation, but the fact that he can't do QUALITATIVE analysis.

For instance...

Does the fact that Douglas Murray's advanced stats were horrible last year suggest a natural/irreversible regression, or is this due to a condensed schedule? I would guess the latter. Chara and Lucic got worn down last year, like many power forwards and big defensemen. No one is saying he is the savior, but a big, crease clearing defensemen playing against sheltered competition is probably the smallest issue facing any NHL team.

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Risk-free sign. I mean, really, it doesn't get less risky than this. No impact on future cap size and the Habs are so profitable that Murray is a drop in the bucket.

Short term reward is somewhat important and the chances of success aren't low, we are talking about an experienced player and in the beginning of his decline (theoretically). Long term: impact zero, if he doesn't work, don't sign it or trade it in the mid season and move on.

Kudos to MB.

Edited by comfortfablyHABS
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Advanced stats are great, the reason Berskshire slurps donkey schlong, is not just the fact that he pastes graphs from other sites, and regurgitated the definitions of said stats like he invented standard deviation, but the fact that he can't do QUALITATIVE analysis.

For instance...

Does the fact that Douglas Murray's advanced stats were horrible last year suggest a natural/irreversible regression, or is this due to a condensed schedule? I would guess the latter. Chara and Lucic got worn down last year, like many power forwards and big defensemen. No one is saying he is the savior, but a big, crease clearing defensemen playing against sheltered competition is probably the smallest issue facing any NHL team.

It's a three year declining trend for Murray. If he hadn't built up a reputation before this he wouldn't be in the NHL this year.

If we signed Murray to fill in for Emelin and just keep the AHL guys down there because that's where we want them, fine. But the $$$ value compared to what, say, Fistric got seems to suggest they think he can play regularly. Or Andrew Alberts is out there as well if we want physical 3rd pair fill-ins.

I don't understand this signing for the most part. It doesn't make sense for me to use up the space that could be banked for a significant trade deadline acquisition on such a low impact spot. I mean, what is Drewskie even here for if he's not trusted to fill in for one guy being hurt for a couple of months?

As for the use of statistical analysis in these decisions, there is a lot we don't know about what will be relevant in the future but the early returns on signing guys like Murray isn't encouraging in these analyses. I'm not convinced the PK analysis, for example, is super relevant because I think that's a much more technical discipline than a personnel one: I don't think Montreal's PK fall in the past year was due to personnel as much as it was due to changing tactics. Subban should be out there and Markov not but that's not the main fix with Montreal's PKing in the year-to-year change. There's a lot more league wide variety in how teams play on special teams than there is at 5 on 5 for whatever reason.

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