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PK and the Olympics


brobin

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He is young, takes penalties and prone to costly defensive gaffs, that is bottom line. But, he would be in my lineup over Bowmeister.

If he cant beat the others out don then how and why did he win the norris ? I am far from a homer but is there another d man on canada would you trade one for one for P.K?

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To be honest it's pretty clear that it's more than just PK. They were playing John Tavares on the fourth line. How in the heck does one justify playing the second best healthy Canadian forward in the league on the fourth line? That's like if Russia decided to play Malkin on the fourth line.

Canada has a problem over thinking things.

Exhibit A: Pick Kunitz and stick him with Crosby, because of "chemistry." Crosby had chemisty with Colby Armstrong! He's the best player in the world! Don't leave off someone like Hall or Seguin or St Louis to get Crosby going!

As an American, I have no problem with that. How do you get three goals against a team with one NHLer? We hung seven on Jaro Halak and Chara.

USA USA USA

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If he cant beat the others out don then how and why did he win the norris ? I am far from a homer but is there another d man on canada would you trade one for one for P.K?

You know why.

Same reason Ray Bourque won any at all.

(the most overrated d-man, ugg.... hate even calling him that, of all time)

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Guest Stogey24

If he cant beat the others out don then how and why did he win the norris ? I am far from a homer but is there another d man on canada would you trade one for one for P.K?

I don't really get a chance to watch other teams besides the Canadiens. After watching the Canada game yesterday, I noticed that there isn't one D-man on that team that has the skating power of Subban. They're all great passers for sure and can skate the puck, but Subban is a different breed.
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You know why.

Same reason Ray Bourque won any at all.

(the most overrated d-man, ugg.... hate even calling him that, of all time)

I know why P.K should be playing and better then any d men on that team. Put him on the hawks team or the kings and he would have 10 or more pts a season. As far as him taking penalties part of it is we are a soft team so he has to play with an edge. Doughty, keith Bouwmeester would be run out of town.

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Bouwmeester? Absolutely.

Doughty? A lot of times he reminds me of Ron Hainsey with more talent so yeah, that's a good possibility.

Keith is the real deal though. I think he should be treated like Ryan Suter. He actually doesn't get enough credit for his play in Chicago.

Shea Weber has really dropped a notch without Ryan Suter. Suter got better without Weber. That should tell you something.

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I know why P.K should be playing and better then any d men on that team. Put him on the hawks team or the kings and he would have 10 or more pts a season. As far as him taking penalties part of it is we are a soft team so he has to play with an edge. Doughty, keith Bouwmeester would be run out of town.

You make my point for me. POINTS, he is a "defenseman", who 1st and primary job is to defend.

Keith is awesome all-round and Pietroangelo is what Tinordi should aspire to be (but obviously wont be that good all-round) and Weber is also a big solid d-man who has an 'OK" shot (that scares the crap out of all in front of net)

At this stage of career I would have Subban as the #4/5 d-man on this team, if I had to pick to build a team around...Subban is it.

But, all of these guy are very very good d-men and Habs would kill to add any of them to play with Subban.

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Stupid but predictable.

If we win gold, then hey - the snubbing of Subban remains an irritant, but all's well that ends well.

If we end up losing due to a lack of offensive punch in a key game in which PK is sitting out - then Babcock deserves to be tarred, feathered, and thrown off the Peace Tower.

Pretty simple logic.

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Stupid but predictable.

If we win gold, then hey - the snubbing of Subban remains an irritant, but all's well that ends well.

If we end up losing due to a lack of offensive punch in a key game in which PK is sitting out - then Babcock deserves to be tarred, feathered, and thrown off the Peace Tower.

Pretty simple logic.

I will defer to Babcock, Julian, Hitchcock and if they want Hamhuis and Vlasic because they are steady, low-risk d-men who can kill penalties, then fine by me and hope team steamrolls Russians in gold medal game.

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Stupid but predictable.

If we win gold, then hey - the snubbing of Subban remains an irritant, but all's well that ends well.

If we end up losing due to a lack of offensive punch in a key game in which PK is sitting out - then Babcock deserves to be tarred, feathered, and thrown off the Peace Tower.

Pretty simple logic.

Even as the 7th defenseman, why wouldn't you want the game breaker on your bench instead of the "steady low-risk guy".

The 7th defenseman isn't gonna play much... but I tell you one thing, if I'm down a goal with 10 minutes left, I'd like to be able to say... Hey PK take some shifts instead of Vlassic, or go out for this PP and let that Howitzer go.... rather than worrying about if I need Hamhuis or not, because lets face it, even with a penalty killing situation, up 1 goal, you are gonna turn to your top defenders and thats not Hamhuis or he wouldn't be number 7.

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Even as the 7th defenseman, why wouldn't you want the game breaker on your bench instead of the "steady low-risk guy".

The 7th defenseman isn't gonna play much... but I tell you one thing, if I'm down a goal with 10 minutes left, I'd like to be able to say... Hey PK take some shifts instead of Vlassic, or go out for this PP and let that Howitzer go.... rather than worrying about if I need Hamhuis or not, because lets face it, even with a penalty killing situation, up 1 goal, you are gonna turn to your top defenders and thats not Hamhuis or he wouldn't be number 7.

Good questions, but you know they would have an explanation for why and have run +/- of every combo and maybe is just a RH shot & experience reason? I don't know; but, this is what Mgmt thinks is the best of 18 very very good d-men asked to camp in summer and I like all of them as choices.

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Good questions, but you know they would have an explanation for why and have run +/- of every combo and maybe is just a RH shot & experience reason? I don't know; but, this is what Mgmt thinks is the best of 18 very very good d-men asked to camp in summer and I like all of them as choices.

You have 7 defencemen....

In dressing Hamhuis, you have 4 LH and 3 RH

In dressing Subban you would have 3 LH and 4 RH

There is virtually no difference.

Its just bad management and coaching and thats besides the fact I would have Subban ahead of Pietrangelo and Doughty, but even if you concede on those two, fine... but there is no way that Hamhuis is a better player than PK, or better to have in this situation... no ing way.

As for this idea that management is infallible... sorry I don't buy it. Remember that Management and Coaching of Team Canada once thought that Ray Bourque was a better choice for a shootout than Wayne Gretzky, so yes, sometimes these guys make mistakes, and yes they can and should be questioned when you think they have made a mistake.

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Even as the 7th defenseman, why wouldn't you want the game breaker on your bench instead of the "steady low-risk guy".Th

The 7th defenseman isn't gonna play much... but I tell you one thing, if I'm down a goal with 10 minutes left, I'd like to be able to say... Hey PK take some shifts instead of Vlassic, or go out for this PP and let that Howitzer go.... rather than worrying about if I need Hamhuis or not, because lets face it, even with a penalty killing situation, up 1 goal, you are gonna turn to your top defenders and thats not Hamhuis or he wouldn't be number 7.

There isn't any scenario where I can see Hamhuis or Vlasic being better than PK in any situation. He is an all around better player, he just gets ostracized for his few defensive "gaffs" because he actually tries to create so much. The mentality of the management reminds me of 98 when they picked ROB ZAMUNER!!! Because of his ability to fill a role, not because of how good he is. Good players can adapt to whatever role they need to fill, not the other way around.

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There isn't any scenario where I can see Hamhuis or Vlasic being better than PK in any situation. He is an all around better player, he just gets ostracized for his few defensive "gaffs" because he actually tries to create so much. The mentality of the management reminds me of 98 when they picked ROB ZAMUNER!!! Because of his ability to fill a role, not because of how good he is. Good players can adapt to whatever role they need to fill, not the other way around.

I'm still not sure what was worse in 98'. Zamuner on the team instead of Messier or ANY other skilled player, or Gretzky on the bench for the shootout.

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You have 7 defencemen....

In dressing Hamhuis, you have 4 LH and 3 RH

In dressing Subban you would have 3 LH and 4 RH

There is virtually no difference.

The difference is that Hamhuis is taking shifts from the left D instead of the right D, who we can all agree are better. So Bouwmeester and Vlasic will see their icetime decrease, instead of Doughty and Pietrangelo.

I can understand Team Canada's logic even if I don't agree with it. If they see Subban as a guy who has a higher potential to create offense as well as defensive lapses, then they'll take a guy who will make less mistakes and rely on other players for offense. I disagree with their evaluation of Subban, but it's pretty common (I wish Therrien, for instance, could believe in him more).

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You have 7 defencemen....

In dressing Hamhuis, you have 4 LH and 3 RH

In dressing Subban you would have 3 LH and 4 RH

There is virtually no difference.

Its just bad management and coaching and thats besides the fact I would have Subban ahead of Pietrangelo and Doughty, but even if you concede on those two, fine... but there is no way that Hamhuis is a better player than PK, or better to have in this situation... no ######ing way.

As for this idea that management is infallible... sorry I don't buy it. Remember that Management and Coaching of Team Canada once thought that Ray Bourque was a better choice for a shootout than Wayne Gretzky, so yes, sometimes these guys make mistakes, and yes they can and should be questioned when you think they have made a mistake.

Didnt say infallible, but not a bunch of idiots neither are they? And to question/debate choices is fine, but I am not near freaking out, like we all were back in 96 when we heard Bourque was in and #99 was on bench hanging his head! I know sometimes you go with gut, but that was inexplicable.

Whereas I can see why a Subban is sat, even in the one game he made a couple bad plays/turnovers at opposition blueline, instead of just getting puck deep, that likely went over like a lead ballon (but overall I thought he was fine).

He just cant do spinaramas or try and deak checkers at bluelines when you are last man back in a tournament. In a season or series he can afford to cough up puck but not in a win or done game, if his own team dosent give him a letter as a leader, nor use him to kill penalties, I simply can understand why they are sitting him.

As I have always said, I would have him on my team, but I see him as a #4/5 d-man in this group.

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Playing Hamhuis instead of PK really doesn't make any sense to me. IMHO Subban is even a superior shutdown defender than Hamhuis.

The only plausible explanation i can think of for this choice is that for whatever reason, the management and coaching staff just have their favourites and PK is not one of them.

Regardless of R vs L handers, I have not seen anything special from Vlasic, and would play PK over him any day as well.

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Other than Keith, no one else in this core has won a Norris Trophy... just saying.

Is a Karlsson-Subban a better defender than Bowmesteer-Pietroangelo-Weber-Vlasic-Hamhuis or Doughty? Unlikely and if you cant get enough offense from 12 All-Star forwards, you better have some shut down d-men, don't you think?

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I've been really impressed by Doughty and Weber so far in this tournament. They are clearly at PK's level or higher. I don't see any of our other defenceman playing at his level.

The double standard is tiresome, though. When Doughty dangles the puck and goes for a skate and gets caught, that's just fine and dandy 'cause, you know, he's the great Drew Doughty. When Karlsson is -13 or whatever, that's OK, because, you know, he is such a massive offensive threat. None of this applies to PK, of course.

Subban has, as a result of a combination of subliminal racism, the old-school view that young players always have to defer to their elders, and the stupidity and lack of support of his own coaches (in Montreal and at Sochi) been put in a no-win situation. ANY mistake he makes, no matter how small, is taken as "further proof" that he is too high-risk. You try doing your job when every little slip you make is highlighted and every tremendous contribution you make is discounted. If Subban can come out of these years with his confidence and skills undiminished, it will be a real tribute to his resilience.

EDIT: hey, Cherry just called Subban the "best defenceman in the National Hockey League." Finally the old fart says something sensible.

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Guest Stogey24

Vlasic touched the puck 16 times vs Austria and had 11 giveaways.[/size]But remember, he's more defensively responsible and less risky than PK.[/size]

Ridiculous
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Ridiculous

But was such a close game, I bet pressure got to him.

Not sure how a crappy d-man like he is, can lead a San Jose d in +/- for past 2 years?

Maybe Austria is much tougher opponent than Western NHL teams. :canada:

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