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Nov. 23, Penguins vs Habs, 7 PM


dlbalr
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I only got to see the last ten minutes, I don't miss too many games, but I did get a Turkey out at the bowling alley!

You got Sid the kid at a bowling alley? I wondered where he was tonite? :lol:

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Murray's are worse per game played and much worse per minute played. Boullion got half of his while playing with Murray.

Agreed

Bouillion is bad, but he's our number 6.

Murray can't even ing skate. He's the worst defenceman in the NHL.

Sit them both and rotate Pateryn/Beaulieu/Tinordi in callups til one claims his spot.

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My worry is we would bet burnt again. MaxPac may not be a power forward, but he is a pure goal scorer. He is not the problem. The problem is we have too many players like DD, Briere, Gionta in our top 6,

Ok, I get the hate for DD and maybe Briere--although he has been playing very well recently--but if you have been watching this game, Gionta does not belong on you S.H.I.T. (short, high-paid, ineffective, twerp) list

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Agreed

Bouillion is bad, but he's our number 6.

Murray can't even ######ing skate. He's the worst defenceman in the NHL.

Sit them both and rotate Pateryn/Beaulieu/Tinordi in callups til one claims his spot.

Your analysis is usually good, but you are wrong about Murray--he is a very useful physical presence at 6/7. Have a look at his work in the Wash game--he was hammering people and that is something we have missed since Emelin got hurt.

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For what?

I don't want to insult anyone, but trading Patches is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard in a while. A big strong winger who scores and skates like that? There are only a handful in the league. And for a team filled with small forwards to even consider trading the biggest, best scoring winger on the team? Madness. Patches may not be out there wiping guys out with body checks and fighting, but thats not what a power forward is in todays NHL. A "power forward" is basically a big strong guy who goes to the net hard, which is exactly what Patches is when healthy.

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A "power forward" is basically a big strong guy who goes to the net hard, which is exactly what Patches is when healthy.

That's not his game. The only reason he was ever labeled a power forward is because he's 6'2". He's never been a crasher and banger.

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The biggest difference between the two teams was in goal. Price was outstanding, and Fleury was maybe a little weak on the Pleks goal. It was the type of game that we would have lost last year.

Letang was pitiful on the third goal. He's nowhere near Subban's league.

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Your analysis is usually good, but you are wrong about Murray--he is a very useful physical presence at 6/7. Have a look at his work in the Wash game--he was hammering people and that is something we have missed since Emelin got hurt.

Correct. How many puck movers do you need?

Here's my analysis of Murray-

Skating-Poor

First pass-Poor

Shot blocking-Excellent

Crease clearing-Good

Positioning-Average

PK-Good

There's my "advanced analysis" of Murray. Basically, he can block shots and clear the crease. But I will take him doing two things well, versus Bouillon who is below average in every aspect of the game.

There's this cult nowadays that value a defenseman's first pass, puck possession, and shot attempts over all else. Their "advanced" analysis is rejected by professional hockey executives, yet they press on, in a heroic, albeit bizarre fashion, not unlike the alchemists in the middle ages. Fight on Noble Sirs!

I still believe what I said a month ago, that Murray will get burned five times this year, and it will be ugly, but at least he's not Yannick Weber. Enough is enough with the redundant, cookie cutter puck movers. One on each pairing is fine. Put him with Diaz, shelter him from top competition and use him on the PK.

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Agreed

Bouillion is bad, but he's our number 6.

Murray can't even ######ing skate. He's the worst defenceman in the NHL.

Sit them both and rotate Pateryn/Beaulieu/Tinordi in callups til one claims his spot.

And Hal Gill was no ballerina o the ice and was a key role player for Habs. I see the same in Murray and have been impressed every game with his simple solid play. I would compare him to other lead-footed Hab d-men like Rick Green, Craig Ludwig who imitated pylons often, but were good Habs to have on roster.

I imagine you will toss out some stats to prove his meets your 'Worst D-man" call, but ask Bergevin, Rick Dudley, Ray Shero, why they would recently trade for and recruit & sign him, they have all the information, statistical analysis, etc etc.

And I would say you are in the minority who hasn't thought Murray should be playing. He has ben blocking shots, clearing the crease, tossing his weight around and not being a major liability out there.

Beaulieu and Tinordi are exactly where they should be, till at least New Year or they start to dominate a bit more in Hamilton.

I would love to see Paterym draw in, but another year in Hamilton wont hurt one bit and he seems to be thriving there.

I don't like crapping on Boullion and think he is a capable 3rd pairing guy, but another sub-6 footer or smallish d-man vs the physical presence of Murray, I will take Murray

for fewer shifts and I am sure the top 4 or 5 don't mind playing an extra shift or 2 anyways.

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Murray averages at least one egregious turnover per game. Sometimes he's bailed out and sometimes it ends up in the net. It's pretty bad considering his limited minutes and purely defensive role.

I'm not in the camp that considers him the worst in the league, but i'm not sure if his physical play makes up for his deficiencies.

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Your analysis is usually good, but you are wrong about Murray--he is a very useful physical presence at 6/7. Have a look at his work in the Wash game--he was hammering people and that is something we have missed since Emelin got hurt.

He played 10:30 minutes in the Washington game?

Why? Because he can't be trusted for more than that.....

A defenceman playing 10:30 minutes is garbage. It puts way too much stress on your other 5 defencemen and would lead to guys wearing down over a long season.

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And Hal Gill was no ballerina o the ice and was a key role player for Habs. I see the same in Murray and have been impressed every game with his simple solid play. I would compare him to other lead-footed Hab d-men like Rick Green, Craig Ludwig who imitated pylons often, but were good Habs to have on roster.

I imagine you will toss out some stats to prove his meets your 'Worst D-man" call, but ask Bergevin, Rick Dudley, Ray Shero, why they would recently trade for and recruit & sign him, they have all the information, statistical analysis, etc etc.

And I would say you are in the minority who hasn't thought Murray should be playing. He has ben blocking shots, clearing the crease, tossing his weight around and not being a major liability out there.

Beaulieu and Tinordi are exactly where they should be, till at least New Year or they start to dominate a bit more in Hamilton.

I would love to see Paterym draw in, but another year in Hamilton wont hurt one bit and he seems to be thriving there.

I don't like crapping on Boullion and think he is a capable 3rd pairing guy, but another sub-6 footer or smallish d-man vs the physical presence of Murray, I will take Murray

for fewer shifts and I am sure the top 4 or 5 don't mind playing an extra shift or 2 anyways.

Murray can't carry Hal Gill's jock strap.

Murray is terrible.

As for asking Ray Shero.... he's a guy who didn't even offer Murray a contract after seeing him up close and personal. And I'm gonna bet that we don't offer Murray another contract after this year. He was good 3-4 years ago, but right now, he's regressed so much.

He's played 10 games, and is a -5. Thats bad.... Thats being -41/82 games.

And thats while playing limited minutes, and on the third pairing, without having the toughest competition.

Here's a look at what Murray brings.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2013/11/17/5110272/is-douglas-murray-the-worst-defenseman-in-the-nhl

He gives up nearly 3 goals per every 60 minutes of ice time at Even Strength, and 35 shots against per 60 minutes..... his corsi in that time TERRIBLE.

Yeah, he's big and throws hits... but he gets caught out of position doing so... or pushes his man into our goalie (see the columbus goal on Budaj) when doing so.

Gill was strong defensively.... Murray isn't.

Murray is honestly the worst defenceman i've seen in Habs uniform since the dark days of the late 90s/early 2000s. The only guy I've seen that he's better than are names like Patrick Traverse and Christian LaFlamme. I'm not even exaggerating here... I'd take guys like Dandenault, Bouillion, Hainsey, and every other defenceman we've played since Gainey took over the team all those years ago over Murray.

He's big, but thats literally all he brings....

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He played 10:30 minutes in the Washington game?

Why? Because he can't be trusted for more than that.....

A defenceman playing 10:30 minutes is garbage. It puts way too much stress on your other 5 defencemen and would lead to guys wearing down over a long season.

Ryan Ellis plays 30 seconds more/game than Murray, so that 30 seconds is dividing line between "garbage" and useful I suppose?

Stress on other 5, really, come on, seems a weak argument? Markov is the only one to worry about (but that will not change till he retires), but Subban at 18th, Gorges 84th and Diaz at 88th for d-icetime and Yemelin will be 20+minutes down the road.

So Pateryn (or some non-garbage 3rd pairing hab d-man) would take the 2nd best defending team, to the #1 spot?

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I wasn't calling out the play of Gionta. The point is that you can't have Gionta, DD, Briere and Galleghar in the top 6 and succeed in the playoffs. Of these 4 only Galleghar plays like he is 6'2" - I don't think he knows how small he is, because his size doesn't effect his effectiveness, regardless who he is on the ice with. Gionta competes, but doesn't have the same fight as Galleghar. Yes, he us willing to crashing into Chara, but rarely will he come away with the puck in those situations.

The size and physicality issues is exasperated when you consider that Pleks and Maxpac aren't overly pbysical either.

From the guys playing close to 20 minutes, we need more physical presance.

We've got that in Eller and Galchenyuk, but their offensive impact is limited playing with Prust and they are also getting less ice time than the top two lines.

Ok, I get the hate for DD and maybe Briere--although he has been playing very well recently--but if you have been watching this game, Gionta does not belong on you S.H.I.T. (short, high-paid, ineffective, twerp) list

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I'd rather have Murrey in for 10 minutes than Bouillon for 16 to 18 min.

He played 10:30 minutes in the Washington game?

Why? Because he can't be trusted for more than that.....

A defenceman playing 10:30 minutes is garbage. It puts way too much stress on your other 5 defencemen and would lead to guys wearing down over a long season.

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I wouldn't offer Murrey a contract either, but than I also wouldn't have offered Bouillon a contract last year.

A better move IMO would have been Hainsey. He isn't great defensively or overly physical, but he is better than both Murrey and Bouillon.

Murray can't carry Hal Gill's jock strap.

Murray is terrible.

As for asking Ray Shero.... he's a guy who didn't even offer Murray a contract after seeing him up close and personal. And I'm gonna bet that we don't offer Murray another contract after this year. He was good 3-4 years ago, but right now, he's regressed so much.

He's played 10 games, and is a -5. Thats bad.... Thats being -41/82 games.

And thats while playing limited minutes, and on the third pairing, without having the toughest competition.

Here's a look at what Murray brings.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2013/11/17/5110272/is-douglas-murray-the-worst-defenseman-in-the-nhl

He gives up nearly 3 goals per every 60 minutes of ice time at Even Strength, and 35 shots against per 60 minutes..... his corsi in that time TERRIBLE.

Yeah, he's big and throws hits... but he gets caught out of position doing so... or pushes his man into our goalie (see the columbus goal on Budaj) when doing so.

Gill was strong defensively.... Murray isn't.

Murray is honestly the worst defenceman i've seen in Habs uniform since the dark days of the late 90s/early 2000s. The only guy I've seen that he's better than are names like Patrick Traverse and Christian LaFlamme. I'm not even exaggerating here... I'd take guys like Dandenault, Bouillion, Hainsey, and every other defenceman we've played since Gainey took over the team all those years ago over Murray.

He's big, but thats literally all he brings....

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Murray can't carry Hal Gill's jock strap.

Murray is terrible.

As for asking Ray Shero.... he's a guy who didn't even offer Murray a contract after seeing him up close and personal. And I'm gonna bet that we don't offer Murray another contract after this year. He was good 3-4 years ago, but right now, he's regressed so much.

He's played 10 games, and is a -5. Thats bad.... Thats being -41/82 games.

And thats while playing limited minutes, and on the third pairing, without having the toughest competition.

Here's a look at what Murray brings.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2013/11/17/5110272/is-douglas-murray-the-worst-defenseman-in-the-nhl

He gives up nearly 3 goals per every 60 minutes of ice time at Even Strength, and 35 shots against per 60 minutes..... his corsi in that time TERRIBLE.

Yeah, he's big and throws hits... but he gets caught out of position doing so... or pushes his man into our goalie (see the columbus goal on Budaj) when doing so.

Gill was strong defensively.... Murray isn't.

Murray is honestly the worst defenceman i've seen in Habs uniform since the dark days of the late 90s/early 2000s. The only guy I've seen that he's better than are names like Patrick Traverse and Christian LaFlamme. I'm not even exaggerating here... I'd take guys like Dandenault, Bouillion, Hainsey, and every other defenceman we've played since Gainey took over the team all those years ago over Murray.

He's big, but thats literally all he brings....

Three goals per 60 minutes of ES? Hardly damning statistics. If he plays 12 minutes, that's a goal every game and a half. That's not bad for a number 6/7 defensemen.

I'd like to see statistical genius Andrew Berkshire make business decisions based on statistics. I made that observation on his site and was promptly blocked. No one in the hockey community knows their asshole from their elbow about statistics; there's a good argument out there that hockey is a team game, and all this nonsense is moot. That opinion is shared by 30 GMs in the national hockey league. Seriously, we're one advanced state away from Behindthenet yelling that statistics in hockey are "a series of tubes." If you're from the US, you Understand that reference if not:

Put Subban with Murray, and Gill with Frankie Boo, and we'll see those "stats" even out.

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Ryan Ellis plays 30 seconds more/game than Murray, so that 30 seconds is dividing line between "garbage" and useful I suppose?

Stress on other 5, really, come on, seems a weak argument? Markov is the only one to worry about (but that will not change till he retires), but Subban at 18th, Gorges 84th and Diaz at 88th for d-icetime and Yemelin will be 20+minutes down the road.

So Pateryn (or some non-garbage 3rd pairing hab d-man) would take the 2nd best defending team, to the #1 spot?

Damn straight! According to the Brain Trust at EOTP, we are a Matt Gilroy away from contention, although we're one of the premier defenses at the moment

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Guest Stogey24

I wouldn't offer Murrey a contract either, but than I also wouldn't have offered Bouillon a contract last year.

A better move IMO would have been Hainsey. He isn't great defensively or overly physical, but he is better than both Murrey and Bouillon.

You can't expect a guy who missed most of training camp, got injured, weighs 240lbs, and has played 8 games to be putting up decent numbers.
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For what it's worth - certainly I can't back this up with advanced stats or any such stuff - I'm basically with Habs29. I prefer Murray to Bouillon because Bouillon is thoroughly mediocre while Murray does a couple of things very well, and those are skills that this defence corps desperately needs. (That said, I don't share Habs29's fuming hatred of Boo Boo; I always kinda liked him, back in his prime). That said, with Emelin back - and has anyone noticed that we started winning again once he returned? - Murray's value dips somewhat.

And Habs29 is of course 100% correct when he says that we have a ridiculous proportion of smurfs in our top-9. This is a fundamental weakness. Ironically, it's gotten worse rather than better; we subtracted Cole and added Briere (!). No matter how good each individual midget is, you can't have that many on your team, especially not now that the NHL has idiotically reverted back to becoming a league of rampant interference. (And what a coincidence, we're now hearing all sorts of handwringing and cockamaimie schemes for "increasing scoring," natch. Better to enlarge the nets or calling shorthanded teams for icing, than simply to enforce the goddamned rule book. Anything but that!!).

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You can't expect a guy who missed most of training camp, got injured, weighs 240lbs, and has played 8 games to be putting up decent numbers.

But, what are you thinking! That stuff isn't important, is irrelevant and simply wrong; because it is incalculable to the biostatisticians among us.

Don't you realize that it is cherry-picked stats that matter most (which we all use from time to time to support a point of view).

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Ok, I get the hate for DD and maybe Briere--although he has been playing very well recently--but if you have been watching this game, Gionta does not belong on you S.H.I.T. (short, high-paid, ineffective, twerp) list

Gionta is 34 years old. He has a value cause he is still productive, but he is a little guy taking a lot of punishment, injured last 2 years. Trade him now and try to get as much as you can for him. He isn't going to get any better with time. Or just wait and see, and when he gets hurt next time, he may be finished, and you get nothing. You have to manage your assets.

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