Lovett's Magnatones Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 It wreaks of stupidity if you think a Harvard education = a Stanley Cup Chiarelli has a Harvard education and he makes shrewd trades and has a cup. As does Brian Burke, who has a Juris Doctor from Harvard and he helped build Vancouver, Anaheim and Toronto. (They didn't do much, but after JF jr still an accomplishment). Dean Lombardi has a law degree from Tulane. Stan Bowman has a degree in finance and computers from Notre Dame. Education is very important in all areas of life, including management in hockey. I agree about the lack of Canadian player, Canadian players help you win, that's just the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 The caps dominated all night and kept us pinned in our own end, so we only got our 4th shot on goal, when they had four goals in the back of our net.... And this is good? Using a player who clearly isn't capable of playing top minutes and playing him against Washington's first line is a coaching decision.... and a dumb one. Even Murray's biggest fans should see that there is no way he is capable of playing such a matchup... and I don't know if you noticed, but Ovechkin did get a point with Murray on the ice. Ben, as always, you have valid points, but am a Murray fan (even when he was with San Jose) But, basically my point is; way too much emphasis, finger pointing, Bergevin/Therrian bashing seems to involve/centre around Murray, when a group of players making 3-4 times the salary to carry the team (31, 67, 21, 79, 74, 48, 17) and produce should be point of concern and discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 The caps dominated all night and kept us pinned in our own end, so we only got our 4th shot on goal, when they had four goals in the back of our net.... And this is good? Using a player who clearly isn't capable of playing top minutes and playing him against Washington's first line is a coaching decision.... and a dumb one. Even Murray's biggest fans should see that there is no way he is capable of playing such a matchup... and I don't know if you noticed, but Ovechkin did get a point with Murray on the ice. I'm with you Don. Murray once again had a solid game against the caps. I think its hilarious fingers are being pointed at him of all players, when a guy like Max Pac has 2 goals in last 10 games. Pacioretty is invisible if he's not netting the puck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Chiarelli has a Harvard education and he makes shrewd trades and has a cup. As does Brian Burke, who has a Juris Doctor from Harvard and he helped build Vancouver, Anaheim and Toronto. (They didn't do much, but after JF jr still an accomplishment). Dean Lombardi has a law degree from Tulane. Stan Bowman has a degree in finance and computers from Notre Dame. Education is very important in all areas of life, including management in hockey. I agree about the lack of Canadian player, Canadian players help you win, that's just the way it is. But there isn't a lack. There are more Canadians than any other country on the team. We currently have more Canadians than the Chicago Blackhawks had last year when they won the Cup. You're buying into xenophobia. You're seriously saying you'd rather Eric Boulton than Evgeni Malkin just because of where one is from. That's insanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 But there isn't a lack. There are more Canadians than any other country on the team. We currently have more Canadians than the Chicago Blackhawks had last year when they won the Cup. You're buying into xenophobia. You're seriously saying you'd rather Eric Boulton than Evgeni Malkin just because of where one is from. That's insanity. Correct, with Parros out it's time to work the phones for Boulton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Naw Machine, Malkin or Boulton? Apples to apples if you are going to compare man, c'mon..... I'd rather have Crosby than Malkin, and O'Rielly than Plekanec, I never indicated I'd rather have a plug because he's Canadian. I'd rather have effort like Ryan White, than disinterest by Eller, or anyone else more talented and higher paid, that just wants a pay cheque. And I meant to say more Gallagher(effort) than Plekanec(quits when it's rough, he does and you know he hates the corner) We also don't have the talent that Chicago has re: our Euros, their Euros. There is nothing wrong with a Euro, or American that has game, and compete running through their veins. Magnatones' I don't mean to say you may not have a point, but you may not ya know? I'm not saying an education isn't important, just saying it isn't the end all be all either, it's hockey, not biology. Bergevin has an NHL degree... as a player, and has worked some management in Chicago. Everyone in his position has advisors for their weak points. I'm sure Bergevin has some advisors that have passed the Bar exam to deal with finance and legal issues. By your logic George Bush would never have become President of the united states, now that guy is stupid and uneducated.....I don't care what his bought and paid for credentials are. Anyway, it's just my opinion, doesn't mean a hill of beans........ Edited January 27, 2014 by KoRP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Its silliness.... it may have been true twenty years ago that Europeans were soft or didn't have what it takes in the playoffs, but things have changed. There are plenty of players who are great in the playoffs who come from Europe, and there are plenty of Canadians who suck come playoff time. If a GM is looking at players' birth certificates instead of their play on the ice... its doomed to failure. This idea that Plekanec quits when the going gets rough is also a myth, as his career PPG in the regular season and playoffs are nearly identical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Its silliness.... it may have been true twenty years ago that Europeans were soft or didn't have what it takes in the playoffs, but things have changed. There are plenty of players who are great in the playoffs who come from Europe, and there are plenty of Canadians who suck come playoff time. If a GM is looking at players' birth certificates instead of their play on the ice... its doomed to failure. This idea that Plekanec quits when the going gets rough is also a myth, as his career PPG in the regular season and playoffs are nearly identical. Euro players and Russians do have a different outlook and culture than North Americans (Sedin standing for Machand slapping him around with zero response would be fine by euro persons and Marchand would be chastised for it; but, for sure seen as weakness or being a pussy by North American hockey fans) Also 'euros' have SEL-KHL as solid back-up plan (a la Nygren), but a McCarron will do all he can to make ECHL-AHL-NHL and then as last resort maybe go Euro-KHL. So there is a difference, maybe not so-much in quality/style of play though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 The Sedins did not fight back against Marchand because non-retaliation was crucial to the Canucks' entire game plan. They went into the series with a lethal power-play. Vigneault's plan was to let the Bruins draw penalties and then kill them on the PP. The crime in that incident was NOT that Sedin was following the game plan and being a great team player willing to take punishment and humiliation in order to help the team win. It was that the refs declined to call the series in any fashion resembling an actual organized sport, and absolutely not in any fashion consistent with how penalties had been called before that. So a Marchand had free rein to bitch-slap star players all he liked without any fear of being penalized. The Canucks could not win that kind of series. The list of blood-and-guts Euros goes on and on. Lidstrom. Datsyuk. Zetterberg. Forsberg. Chara. Plekanec. Koivu. Salming. Alfreddson. Pleaknec. The Sedins (one of whom merely racked up an iron man streak of 600+ games - wow, what a pussy). Mats Naslund. Etc. etc. etc. This whole thing is a ridiculous trope. Remember when Ottawa dealt Hossa for Heatly and all the fans were excited that they'd finally "Canadianized" the team? How'd that work out? Last I checked, Hossa is the guy with Cup rings and Heatly has degenrated into a whiny mediocrity. None of this has any effect on the stereotype, of course. When a Canadian player is a lazy slob or a bad team guy, that NEVER says anything about Canadian hockey, right? But when a Euro is, well, that's all the evidence we need. It's called confirmation bias, and it's mostly a bunch of bunk. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Pleks is such a warrior that you even mentioned his deformed half-brother, Pleaknec. Great post, CC. Those repeated Marchand punches are such an embarassment to the NHL. It makes me think the refs and league administrators are the same xenophobic idiots as the Bruins fans who cheered it on. I wonder what would have happened if a mid-tier Russian player was taking shots like that on Toews or Kane, who were holding back to draw a penalty - how would that have been called? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 So you don't have an issue about the idiotic CANADIAN Refs who didn't call a penalty on Marchand?? Euro players and Russians do have a different outlook and culture than North Americans (Sedin standing for Machand slapping him around with zero response would be fine by euro persons and Marchand would be chastised for it; but, for sure seen as weakness or being a pussy by North American hockey fans) Also 'euros' have SEL-KHL as solid back-up plan (a la Nygren), but a McCarron will do all he can to make ECHL-AHL-NHL and then as last resort maybe go Euro-KHL. So there is a difference, maybe not so-much in quality/style of play though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Pleks is such a warrior that you even mentioned his deformed half-brother, Pleaknec. Great post, CC. Those repeated Marchand punches are such an embarassment to the NHL. It makes me think the refs and league administrators are the same xenophobic idiots as the Bruins fans who cheered it on. I wonder what would have happened if a mid-tier Russian player was taking shots like that on Toews or Kane, who were holding back to draw a penalty - how would that have been called? The Russian/European leagues seem to be xenophobic as well. I'm not sure about the SM Liga or SEL, but the KHL has a 5 man limit on "imports" for each roster. They seem to be doing this to protect their brand of hockey, and I don't see an issue with, say, the CHL putting a limit on non Canadian or North American goalies. We hear about Cherry non stop, but to me it's obvious other nations have similar views, although it's probably for protectionist reasons instead of nationalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I think it's really sad that some people on here are calling players human garbage, and commenting on Bergevin not having a high school education. It wreaks of arrogance, stupidity and ignorance..... arrogance by thinking in the same position(which you will never be in) that you could somehow magically get other GM's to trade us great players in return for our under performers. It wreaks of stupidity if you think a Harvard education = a Stanley Cup since our last cup was with a coach that was illiterate, and ignorance to make such an ignorant statement, because that's what it is. Human garbage? C'mon man! Also should add forgetful, you forget the last 20 years of mediocre teams, with no GM that could see we needed to rebuild not trade prospects like McDonagh, and not a scouting staff that picks ie: Kostitsin over Getzlaf, and Euro talent over Canadian heart as a "go by strategy", including drafting midgets over size and skill. That's just BS. This team has had the same core of players for the last few years, Markov, Plekanec, Patcioretty, Subban and Price. Price and Subban are the only players that the Habs have that are true top line players, with heart, ability and passion, and the tools to make the Habs a perennial cup Contender. Markov and Plekanec are players that would give us a decent return in a trade, and would change the dynamic of the team the most IMO, and the culture of the team id what we need. There are no deals where we can trade our failed players for Steven Stamkos, Claude Giroux, or Sid..... I've said it before, and I'll say it again, maybe not a PC statement, but accurately describes the Hab's biggest deficiency..... The biggest problem is the Habs don't have enough Canadian players........ like it or lump it, mark my words, Bergevin will change the culture, he has shown and has said that he wants a hard working, tooth and nail competitive team, and although it may take a couple years, and that's what the Habs really need. More Gallagher, less Plekanec...... Ummm, who are the guys we REALLY need to dump from our team for either being useless, washed up, top small and soft or grossly over paid for what the bring: -Bourque -DD -Briere -Giona -Bouillon -Gorges -Diaz Guess what, 4 out of the 7 are Canadians and from what I understand Bouillon pretty much grow and played his junior hockey in Canada. Who is the biggest floater on this team - yeah Bourque. Canadian. And I won't apologize for calling him human garbage - which is my opinion of anyone who doesn't try to EARN the money he is being paid. So your saying you would rather have Bergeron over Datysuk? Any Canadian Dman from 2000 onwards over Lidstrom??? A young Rick Nash (captain canada who hasn't won anything in the NHL), over a young Jagr? Vinny Lecavalier in his prime over Malkin?? When the Pens won the cup, who won the Conn Smythe. Oh yeah, it wasn't Crosby, it was that lazy, uninterested Russian, Malkin. For some perspective, how many cups did the great canadian, Yzerman lead the wings to before he got his lazy/soft/no desire russian and swedish teammates? Who won the conn smythe last year, oh yeah, it was the lazy Kane. The Canadian over Euro/AMerican/russian argument is as much nonsense as the cheering for Gerbe and trashing Hertl for the friggin move to score a goal! The whole Canadians WANT to win more than euros is the most ignorant trite that there is, so I don't think there is even any point on commenting on seeing a lack of education as an unfair criticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 korp: More Gallagher, less Plekanec.... You are kidding right? I love Gallagher. He is a great insperation, but really Plex at this point is a much more valuable player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 The Russian/European leagues seem to be xenophobic as well. I'm not sure about the SM Liga or SEL, but the KHL has a 5 man limit on "imports" for each roster. They seem to be doing this to protect their brand of hockey, and I don't see an issue with, say, the CHL putting a limit on non Canadian or North American goalies. We hear about Cherry non stop, but to me it's obvious other nations have similar views, although it's probably for protectionist reasons instead of nationalism. Oh yeah, xenophobia and racism is a given to a certain degree across the board. Doesn't make the xenophobic and racist idiots any less idiotic, but it's good to have some perspective and see that there's are plenty of Don Cherry equivalents in any country (although they may not have a similar national platform). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 So you don't have an issue about the idiotic CANADIAN Refs who didn't call a penalty on Marchand?? I feel bad for referees. They are simply puppets of billionaire bosses, who seem to like to toy with the rules and how game gets called, whenever they feel like it (when they think it can make more $$ for them). So, "you cant call a x-check like that in the finals", it is the finals and we want to let players play and let them sort things out, old school like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Yup drafting Euros sure did hurt us when we took Markov in the 6th round... surely there was a Canadian kid available instead. or Emelin in the third round. or Koivu in the first round (who was our only good first rounder for like the entire decade of the 90s) or Plekanec in the fourth round. and you can go on down the list. Yeah, you can argue that Andrei Kostitsyn was a bad pick, but he's pretty much the only Euro first rounder we've had. Anything later than that is a crap shoot and we've had plenty of Euros who turned out well. But this is besides the point.... you don't make vague generalizations like "Lets not draft Euros, lets draft only Canadian kids." I'd prefer our scouting department isn't concerned with where the kid is born, but how he plays on the ice, and the attitude he has off it. Those are both things specific to an INDIVIDUAL and are not common to people all born in the same area. To believe otherwise is bigotry, plain and simple. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I can recall Kostitsyn being called and Pierre McQuire basically ranting (I know that goes without saying), "he has top 5 skill, good pick and only question are his seizure's" (unlike when Price was called 2 years later) There didn't seem to be experts panning the pick then and he did rack up numerous 20+ goal seasons (even while being the clumsiest NHLer I have ever seen). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I can't believe this whole "Euro" issue is still coming up Next we'll be arguing about whether French Canadian players are "sissies." Or whether white men can jump. On drafting in general: I don't think there's much sense in griping about this or that specific pick, unless it's an absolute howler. Drafting's notoriously inexact. All you can do is look for patterns. If the Habs have a worse track record of 1st-round drafting than other organizations, that's a legitimate gripe. If the Habs pick a particular, well-regarded prospect who doesn't pan out in the end, that's not a legitimate gripe. Also, while Kostitsyn was a regrettable choice, nobody who ever believed that AK 47 would be a "future star" for the organization has a right to flame Timmins or Gainey retroactively for that choice. Finally, there's a difference between drafting and player development. To this day I believe that the big problem with the Gainey regime was not the former, but the latter. They just had no idea how to take a young player and mentor him into a pro in today's NHL. Perhaps if the organization had had a stronger "development" culture, players like the Kostitsyns wouldn't have fallen into the traps they fell into, a guy like Higgins would not have spent three years in the wilderness before reconstructing his game, a Grabvoski would not have driven himself off the team, Hainsey would not have needed to go elsewhere to become an NHL regular, Ribs wouldn't have been such a punk, Fats would have learned how to work out, etc., etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Yup drafting Euros sure did hurt us when we took Markov in the 6th round... surely there was a Canadian kid available instead. or Emelin in the third round. or Koivu in the first round (who was our only good first rounder for like the entire decade of the 90s) or Plekanec in the fourth round. and you can go on down the list. Yeah, you can argue that Andrei Kostitsyn was a bad pick, but he's pretty much the only Euro first rounder we've had. Anything later than that is a crap shoot and we've had plenty of Euros who turned out well. But this is besides the point.... you don't make vague generalizations like "Lets not draft Euros, lets draft only Canadian kids." I'd prefer our scouting department isn't concerned with where the kid is born, but how he plays on the ice, and the attitude he has off it. Those are both things specific to an INDIVIDUAL and are not common to people all born in the same area. To believe otherwise is bigotry, plain and simple. Isn't that kinda like how we should be hiring our coaches and GM's. The best available without worrying about what languages they speak? I always have to laugh that to coach in Montreal you must speak french but to coach in europe/russia/ anyfriggin place you can just speak english, not the mother toungue of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 habsrule, I sort of agree with you. I disagree to the extent that it is part of North American sports culture that teams and their representatives communicate with fans in a common tongue; Quebec is not different from the mainstream in this. But I would draw a distinction between hiring French-speakers, and hiring people who are willing to learn enough French to be able to communicate meaningfully with the community of which the team is a part. What I find really frustrating is that the whole option of intensive language training has somehow fallen off the table in this hysteria over speaking French. To my mind, a prospective coach or GM who refuses to undertake intensive language training in the offseason, paid for by the organization, is simply an arsehole and not somebody worthy of the Montreal Canadiens' heritage or their fans. So make THAT a condition of hiring - not that the individual ALREADY BE bilingual, which shrinks the talent pool ridiculously. I also think it's more important that the coach be able to speak French than the GM. The former deals with the media day in and day out, the latter only occasionally. But that's a lost cause, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 habsrule, I sort of agree with you. I disagree to the extent that it is part of North American sports culture that teams and their representatives communicate with fans in a common tongue; Quebec is not different from the mainstream in this. But I would draw a distinction between hiring French-speakers, and hiring people who are willing to learn enough French to be able to communicate meaningfully with the community of which the team is a part. What I find really frustrating is that the whole option of intensive language training has somehow fallen off the table in this hysteria over speaking French. To my mind, a prospective coach or GM who refuses to undertake intensive language training in the offseason, paid for by the organization, is simply an arsehole and not somebody worthy of the Montreal Canadiens' heritage or their fans. So make THAT a condition of hiring - not that the individual ALREADY BE bilingual, which shrinks the talent pool ridiculously. I also think it's more important that the coach be able to speak French than the GM. The former deals with the media day in and day out, the latter only occasionally. But that's a lost cause, of course. I agree with what you say but the fact "that it is part of North American sports culture that teams and their representatives communicate with fans in a common tongue" is somewhat of a red herring since every other team speaks english.I don't notice the Cowboys giving press conferences in spanish. I agree that we should at least give a candidate the opportunity to learn french. However I really question how important it is to have the coach give the usual platitudes at press conferences in french. Most of these media scrums are rehashed tripe. Copy from the last press conference. Unless of course you hire John Tortarella, now he quite often has interesting things to say. Michele Therrien? Very boring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Let's avoid the personal attacks, folks. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Let's avoid the personal attacks, folks. Thanks. what personal attacks. I sure hope you don't mean me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 what personal attacks. I sure hope you don't mean me. Nope. I did a bit of thread cleaning earlier so the offending post(s) aren't visible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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