Training Camp Thread

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Well, a handful of undistinguished playoff games replacing the marginal Bouillon, to me, are insufficient evidence of an automatic roster spot; I'm with dlbalr and Jeff on this. He does not have a body of work sufficient to make him a regular. Also, does Tom Gilbert change the calculation? With him, we have three puck-moving defencemen: one who is elite (Subban), one near-elite (Markov), and one respectable (Gilbert). Because Gorges was not really an effective puck-mover, this configuration might alter Beaulieu's prospects by making him redundant. Team balance might be better served by adding a defenceman of, say, Tinordi's profile; after all, we have three puck-movers and only one bruiser (Emelin).

If I were Nate, I'd be highly motivated to remove all doubt that I am THE guy. Right now, he ain't it IMHO.

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

Hope he can put it all together and be an impact player, but see him more like a Mike Green who will always be a somewhat weak in own end but offense is enough to offset that and no where near as bad as a MAB (or Nygren?).

If he develops into a 40-50 point d-man, maybe i'll agree. But right now, he's neither offensively nor defensively worthwhile.

Beaulieu hasn't proven anything. He's never shown he can compete effectively at the NHL level - he's not even reliable at the AHL level.

Talent? He's got that in spades, but if I had a nickle for every player touted as having incredible talent who never produced enough to warrant his roster spot, I'd be hobnobbing with Subban, Kane and Toews in the off-season. I know a lot of people here are really big on Beaulieu, but right now, if I'm MT, barring some sudden turnaround in his work ethic and on-ice performance, Beaulieu starts the season in Hamilton.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

If he develops into a 40-50 point d-man, maybe i'll agree. But right now, he's neither offensively nor defensively worthwhile.

The kid's only 21, right? So in the bigger picture, we probably should not be alarmed if he's not there yet. We definitely need him to be emerging as 40+-point defenceman by the end of Markov's contract, though.

[dlbalr]

With him, we have three puck-moving defencemen: one who is elite (Subban), one near-elite (Markov), and one respectable (Gilbert). Because Gorges was not really an effective puck-mover, this configuration might alter Beaulieu's prospects by making him redundant. Team balance might be better served by adding a defenceman of, say, Tinordi's profile; after all, we have three puck-movers and only one bruiser (Emelin).

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, just for fun. With Gilbert joining the team, I could see the defensive strategy shifting to having them be more aggressive/opportunistic offensively to suit the strengths of Subban, Markov, and Gilbert. If that's the case, Beaulieu may fit in better than he has to-date because of his mobility/passing/offensive instincts.

Obviously it's not guaranteed to happen but it's an option. It's that uncertainty that should have him playing really hard in these exhibition games though, to try to sway the staff not only to keep him but to give the coaches the confidence to play a little more up-tempo with their blueliners which would benefit Beaulieu more than most.

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

The kid's only 21, right? So in the bigger picture, we probably should not be alarmed if he's not there yet. We definitely need him to be emerging as 40+-point defenceman by the end of Markov's contract, though.

Being 21 nets you some leeway if you're working hard to make it at the NHL. "N8 the Gr8" spends his time acting like a proven star, like he's already earned his spot, but he's never proven anything. Serious attitude adjustment needed.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Being 21 nets you some leeway if you're working hard to make it at the NHL. "N8 the Gr8" spends his time acting like a proven star, like he's already earned his spot, but he's never proven anything. Serious attitude adjustment needed.

That's quite a bit of hyperbole, but you've never really expressed anything positive about him. Sound more like you have an axe to grind.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, just for fun. With Gilbert joining the team, I could see the defensive strategy shifting to having them be more aggressive/opportunistic offensively to suit the strengths of Subban, Markov, and Gilbert. If that's the case, Beaulieu may fit in better than he has to-date because of his mobility/passing/offensive instincts.

Obviously it's not guaranteed to happen but it's an option. It's that uncertainty that should have him playing really hard in these exhibition games though, to try to sway the staff not only to keep him but to give the coaches the confidence to play a little more up-tempo with their blueliners which would benefit Beaulieu more than most.

Yes, your hypothetical strategy could be spot-on. I'm a big believer in doubling-down on your strengths. That said, your second paragraph is also perceptive. Bottom line is, if I'm Habs' management, I could see myself saying, "well, if Beaulieu proves he's ready, then we go with the ultra-mobile D model; if Tinordi or Pateryn are ready, we add him to the mix and go with a 'balanced D' model." Certainly I'd do that before slotting an entitled and under-prepared Beaulieu into the mix. Either way the Habs can't really lose, and on neither scenario should Nate be assuming he's a lock.

[Guest Stogey24]

Good posts boys. I definitely don't think Beaulieu is lock, but I do think he's top of the rookie blue liners depth chart. Things can easily change though.

[habs rule]

Being 21 nets you some leeway if you're working hard to make it at the NHL. "N8 the Gr8" spends his time acting like a proven star, like he's already earned his spot, but he's never proven anything. Serious attitude adjustment needed.

I am always interested in where these ideas come from, how does act like a proven star? Like he has earned his spot? Serious attitude adjustment needed?

It is very possible that yu are much closer to the scene in Montreal than I am, and know something that I have no way of learning. Do you talk to the players? Do you know MT on a personal level? I am asking these questions seriously because I have seen guys run out of Montreal based on rumour and inuendo. I just wonder where these these ideas come from that are portrayed as fact.

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

You can see it by watching him. All we have for his attitude other than what he's doing on the ice is his off-ice antics. It's clear he was dogging it in Hamilton last year and at training camp right now with his performance so far. His promoters here even say so, as if that's okay to them, because it's not an NHL game yet. The thing is, he's never done anything to earn his spot yet. He's played a grand total of 30 NHL games (7 of those in the playoffs), and has 6 assists to show for it. In each and every shift he's been a defensive liability at best. That's okay if you're a 21 year old prospect ... you let them develop in the AHL while they work out their issues. Only by his Hamilton performance, I get the impression he thinks he's too good for the AHL now, and only the NHL matters. This couldn't be further from the truth. (If you don't accept that this is his attitude, remember, I'm being charitable, because the alternative is that he really sucks that much that even in the AHL he's outclassed.)

Someone above compared him to Subban. You know, PK Subban is a proven star, and he has never once failed to give 100% in every single shift. Oh, he makes mistakes, sure. Everyone does...but each practice, each pre-game warmup, each interview, one gets the impression of a warrior's competitiveness and a work-ethic where anything less than total effort no matter what he's doing is unacceptable to himself, personally. Despite fans and media alike criticizing his "atittude," PK has always been team-first, the epitome of modesty in an interview. He does something stupid like scowling at the entire boston bench as he skates by, and gets dressed down for it by Markov when he gets back to the bench. A player with too much ego or pride would take offense - who is Markov to criticize me? But PK takes it constructively and respectfully and learns from it. What impresses me about Subban is everything N8 the Gr8 lacks -- so far, anyway. I don't see that work ethic. I don't see that hunger and competitive drive. I don't see that humility that is the hallmark of self-improvement.

No matter your talent level, you can display that. I don't see it from NB. And as an unproven kid, Beaulieu needs that more than any amount of talent. All the better if you can maintain it after a Norris trophy, but N8's not there yet. I want him to develop into the player some people here think he already is, because I'm a Habs fan and I want their prospects to reach their potential in Montreal and help us get 25 someday soon. But I'm not seeing the upside for N8. I've never seen it. There's not even flashes of brilliance like Eller or Bourque. There's simply undeveloped "talent" that's not translating into an on-ice asset.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I am always interested in where these ideas come from, how does act like a proven star? Like he has earned his spot? Serious attitude adjustment needed?

It is very possible that yu are much closer to the scene in Montreal than I am, and know something that I have no way of learning. Do you talk to the players? Do you know MT on a personal level? I am asking these questions seriously because I have seen guys run out of Montreal based on rumour and inuendo. I just wonder where these these ideas come from that are portrayed as fact.

Hmmm. I agree that the Habs have been too quick to give up on young guys with immature attitudes (Grabovski, Ribeiro, and Hainsey all come to mind). I'm less clear on when we rode guys out of town 'based on rumour and innuendo' - ?

EDIT: Jeff's post above is very strong and captures the underlying worry about Beaulieu. I'd add that this 'Beaulieu' debate may be doubling as a proxy for a more long-running argument on this board, the argument between those (like me) who demand that young players actually EARN their spots and their ice-time, and those who seem to want to anoint players irrespective of whether they've done anything yet. Anyone who takes the 'earn your spot' attitude is probably going to have some concerns about young Mr. Beaulieu, precisely because he does not seem to be 'bringing it' when he should.

[hupette gros]

You can see it by watching him. All we have for his attitude other than what he's doing on the ice is his off-ice antics. It's clear he was dogging it in Hamilton last year and at training camp right now with his performance so far. His promoters here even say so, as if that's okay to them, because it's not an NHL game yet. The thing is, he's never done anything to earn his spot yet. He's played a grand total of 30 NHL games (7 of those in the playoffs), and has 6 assists to show for it. In each and every shift he's been a defensive liability at best. That's okay if you're a 21 year old prospect ... you let them develop in the AHL while they work out their issues. Only by his Hamilton performance, I get the impression he thinks he's too good for the AHL now, and only the NHL matters. This couldn't be further from the truth. (If you don't accept that this is his attitude, remember, I'm being charitable, because the alternative is that he really sucks that much that even in the AHL he's outclassed.)

Someone above compared him to Subban. You know, PK Subban is a proven star, and he has never once failed to give 100% in every single shift. Oh, he makes mistakes, sure. Everyone does...but each practice, each pre-game warmup, each interview, one gets the impression of a warrior's competitiveness and a work-ethic where anything less than total effort no matter what he's doing is unacceptable to himself, personally. Despite fans and media alike criticizing his "atittude," PK has always been team-first, the epitome of modesty in an interview. He does something stupid like scowling at the entire boston bench as he skates by, and gets dressed down for it by Markov when he gets back to the bench. A player with too much ego or pride would take offense - who is Markov to criticize me? But PK takes it constructively and respectfully and learns from it. What impresses me about Subban is everything N8 the Gr8 lacks -- so far, anyway. I don't see that work ethic. I don't see that hunger and competitive drive. I don't see that humility that is the hallmark of self-improvement.

No matter your talent level, you can display that. I don't see it from NB. And as an unproven kid, Beaulieu needs that more than any amount of talent. All the better if you can maintain it after a Norris trophy, but N8's not there yet. I want him to develop into the player some people here think he already is, because I'm a Habs fan and I want their prospects to reach their potential in Montreal and help us get 25 someday soon. But I'm not seeing the upside for N8. I've never seen it. There's not even flashes of brilliance like Eller or Bourque. There's simply undeveloped "talent" that's not translating into an on-ice asset.

Great post.

I remember seeing Beaulieu perform in Saint John during the 2012 QMJHL playoffs. He clearly saw himself above the rest during games (which he actually probably was, talent wise). This translated in arrogance towards the opposing team (he was yapping like an a$$ at players between faceoffs) and also on bad decision making while on the ice (too many incredibly long shifts, too many worthless rushes in the offensive zone, etc.).

The guy is not focused on making small and simple plays with intensity and good judgment. He seems to be focused on showing the world how great his skating and hands are.

I don't like him but I still hope he can turn things around and become an effective player.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Why does everyone hate Beaulieu this much?

The "N8 the GR8" criticisms are over the top. He was a teenager when that happened.

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

Why does everyone hate Beaulieu this much?

I certainly don't hate him. I want him to pull up his socks, give the proverbial 110% on every shift whether he's in Montréal or in Hamilton, and live up to his potential. I just don't see that from him.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Why does everyone hate Beaulieu this much?

I don't. I think this witch hunt on his attitude is getting ridiculous.

To answer Cucumber's question on who we rode out of town? It's not so much about having individual examples and more about how Montreal, Toronto and just about every Canadian team puts every young player on a microscope and questions their attitude, their commitment, their diet, their summer training regiment, how much weight they gained, how much muscle they put on, etc. that it's no surprise most 28 year old free agents would rather play in Philly or New York. French Canadian kids know it best in Montreal which is why they never come here in their prime. We have to trade for them. Or sign a guy like Danny Briere at 36 after his contract gets bought out.

Jeff Price just wrote three paragraphs on a hunch. That's it. And it's that sort of extreme speculation that makes me happy Marc Bergevin doesn't listen to the fans. I honestly don't care if Beaulieu dogs it in practice or scrimmage or exhibition. He's playing as well as I'd expect a 21 year old like him to play. When he starts regressing then we'll talk about it.

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

He's playing as well as I'd expect a 21 year old like him to play. When he starts regressing then we'll talk about it.

Well, last year, it was a tossup between him and Doug Murray in the lineup at any given time. Bouillon was a consistently better and more reliable player.

He's gotta play better than that to be anything but a liability at the NHL level.

As far as regression, he went from a -8 to a -19 in Hamilton with similar offensive production. A lot of that could be attributed to a worse team, but I think he was a big part of the team being worse. Honestly, I don't think he's spent enough time in the AHL yet. He needs to develop both offensively AND defensively. If we want him to turn into a bona fide NHL caliber defenseman, we need to give him time in the AHL to do it. He hasn't shown any signs of being ready yet.

[dlbalr]

Zach Fucale has been cut from camp. That's not a big shocker considering they were carrying six goalies, he wasn't likely to play in an exhibition game.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I thought he was definitely better than Murray and Cube. Sending him down was a dumb decision. He obviously outplayed them when he returned to the lineup in the post season as well.

I think you're just clearly biased against him and have proved it in every post about Nathan. I could care less. I just think he's the best offensive D option out of the prospects and people are trying to make mountains out of molehills.

[JoeLassister]

This is my problem with the "has to earn his spot" attitude : There will always be a cheap 33yo UFA who played well enough in recent years and is more proven and reliable than rookies like Beaulieu. See Murray, Bouillon, Wheaver, etc.

Then why do we draft dmen again ? For them to be perfect at the age of 26 and start them slowly on 3rd pair ice-time in the NHL ?

At one point, you gotta give the guy a chance to prove you that he's ready. And sometimes, especially on this board, it seems to me that this point will NEVER happen because there is always a more defensively reliable player out there.

And also, the ones who don't want to rush Beaulieu - Tinordi in the NHL are the same ones who claim that our team is not a true contender anyway for Stanley Cup. Then when will be the best timing to bring them in the NHL ? The year we will be true contenders ?!?!?! Doesn't make any sense to me. The year we'll be true contender, IMHO, is the year that Beaulieu AND Tinordi will be NHL regular. And by always pushing back this moment, we'll always push back, again IMHO, the moment when we'll win #25.

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

I thought he was definitely better than Murray and Cube. Sending him down was a dumb decision. He obviously outplayed them when he returned to the lineup in the post season as well.

I think you're just clearly biased against him and have proved it in every post about Nathan. I could care less. I just think he's the best offensive D option out of the prospects and people are trying to make mountains out of molehills.

2 assists in 23 games. Admittedly, slightly more offense than Murray's 2 assists in 53 games -- double of almost nothing is still almost nothing. I'll give you he had more offensive production than Murray.

Cube, though? Cube had 2 goals, 4 assists in 52 games -- and unlike either Murray or Beaulieu, he was also defensively competent. Seems to me by any objective measure, Cube was better at both ends of the rink than Beaulieu last year.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Cube had four more points than Beaulieu in 35 more games while averaging four more minutes of icetime per game. And you are touting this as Cube being a better offensive player.

Cube's +/- (a flawed stat) looks better than it should due to two late season games against Florida and Detroit where he had a +3. That kept his -5 from being a -11. Beaulieu on the other hand only played two games where he finished the game with a minus, combining regular season and playoffs.

If we dived into advanced statistics you'd see how Beaulieu was merely sheltered by Therrien because he didn't have confidence in him. Watching the games, watching his play, looking at his metrics, he was by no means worse than Bouillon or Murray as a defensive player and drove offence much better than both as well.

The fact you just tried to defend four more points in 35 more games while playing 600 more minutes of icetime is just amazing to me. But you don't hate him of course

[JCPetit]

Well, a handful of undistinguished playoff games replacing the marginal Bouillon, to me, are insufficient evidence of an automatic roster spot; I'm with dlbalr and Jeff on this. He does not have a body of work sufficient to make him a regular. Also, does Tom Gilbert change the calculation? With him, we have three puck-moving defencemen: one who is elite (Subban), one near-elite (Markov), and one respectable (Gilbert). Because Gorges was not really an effective puck-mover, this configuration might alter Beaulieu's prospects by making him redundant. Team balance might be better served by adding a defenceman of, say, Tinordi's profile; after all, we have three puck-movers and only one bruiser (Emelin).

If I were Nate, I'd be highly motivated to remove all doubt that I am THE guy. Right now, he ain't it IMHO.

IMO two youngsters will join the defense squad this year, and Beaulieu won't be part of that duo, at least from the beginning. I believe, like you do, that Tinordi has the edge because the team needs a physical presence at the blue line. Pateryn will be the other one. First of all, he is right-handed, which is always a rarity. He also has excellent size, maturity and a good shot. Beaulieu will have to earn his place the hard way. That's all.

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

He got triple the points (and the goals should count far more than the assists) with about two and a half times as much opportunity.

Furthermore, I hate +/- as a stat. Bouillon is defensively competent. He always has been a reliable defender for us. Beaulieu has thus far made Tomas Kaberle look like he should have been killing penalties.

Look, I've got nothing against an offensively-minded defenseman. You need a few here and there. Ideally, they're good at both ends, but you can get by being stronger on offense than defense. Beaulieu has so far shown no defensive upside. That's okay, because we're told his offensive skills are incredible!

Where are those skills? If you're going to play at the NHL level as an offensive-only d-man, you need to produce offensively! P.K. (who, contrary to popular opinion, is actually pretty damn good, defensively) put up 2 assists in his first two games as a hab. His rookie season he managed 14 goals and 38 points in 77 games. Okay, he's going to be a superstar, the comparison's not fair. So, if Beaulieu was half the offensive defenseman PK was, he'd be putting up 7 goals and 19 assists in a rookie campaign. I might be happy with that. "Oh, but he's only 21!" Yeah, yeah, PK was 20 when he did that. If he's ready, he'll start producing, immediately. He'll get better as he matures, but you don't keep them into the NHL when they sucked at the AHL level and have done nothing but suck thus far at the NHL level.

I'm not biased against Beaulieu. I'm biased by performance. Show me the numbers. Show me what you can do. Don't tell me your potential, don't tell me how fast you skate or how talented you are. PUT IT ON THE ICE. Make me notice. If you can't do that, get your ass back to the minors until you can.

[habs rule]

Great post.

I remember seeing Beaulieu perform in Saint John during the 2012 QMJHL playoffs. He clearly saw himself above the rest during games (which he actually probably was, talent wise). This translated in arrogance towards the opposing team (he was yapping like an a$$ at players between faceoffs) and also on bad decision making while on the ice (too many incredibly long shifts, too many worthless rushes in the offensive zone, etc.).

The guy is not focused on making small and simple plays with intensity and good judgment. He seems to be focused on showing the world how great his skating and hands are.

I don't like him but I still hope he can turn things around and become an effective player.

Ok now you have watched him and this is your opinion on his play. That is a very valid post. I on the other hand have only watched him play in the NHL, I never saw any of that. I saw a young kid making mistakes but aslo showing a lot of talent. I am not defending him per se, but I do wonder why we want denigrate and create a bad reputation for a guy who could be a big part of this team going forward. I mean if you were reading reviews about yourself at your job and they were always negative with a fair smattering of BS in there, I believe it would have a profound impact on your performance. We haven't walked in his shoes and do not know the trials and tribulations he may have gone through to get here. Yes he has to earn his spot, but the coaches and leaders on the team are supposed to be there to help him do that. I personally hope he succeeds in spades. There are lots of players who don't put forward their best in nothing hockey games or practice. Mr Moen is one of them. Mr Lafleur was another.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

IMO two youngsters will join the defense squad this year, and Beaulieu won't be part of that duo, at least from the beginning. I believe, like you do, that Tinordi has the edge because the team needs a physical presence at the blue line. Pateryn will be the other one. First of all, he is right-handed, which is always a rarity. He also has excellent size, maturity and a good shot. Beaulieu will have to earn his place the grad way. That's all.

I could definitely see that happening. It would also be interesting to see Beaulieu and Nygren as the top Bulldogs PP unit. Pateryn works better as a 7th d-man for the reasons you stated .He feels like a guy you can be comfortable in any situation. Tinordi can dig pucks out of corners better than any of the other D's and he looks great carrying out the puck for the first pass.

That said, we're currently basing who will win spots on scrimmages. Nobody likes scrimmages. Let's see how they play in exhibition before deciding anything.

I think Weaver might find himself our #7 by the midway point of the year.