Is Michel Therrien a real genius like Don says?

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

He's better defensively,

You lost me there. Eller's been a defensive liability...he's a major minus on a largely plus team, despite not having the excuse of getting most of his points on the powerplay. I don't trust the +/- stat much, but Eller's been no more consistent defensively than he has offensively. He's NOT a shutdown forward. He might be someday, but so far he's been an offensively only forward without any offense.

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

Again with the Eller debate. Look, Eller probably has been better than Bourque, all told, although it's a marginal advantage. Eller's "big year" (the half-season of 2012-13) actually coincided with a strong season by Bourque, so they do oddly mirror each other. Contrary to myth, Eller is not good defensively (-15 on a plus team, playing mostly against other teams' secondary lines, does not speak to awesome defensive prowess); he brings marginal offence; he does hit, but not in any particularly impactful way; he's solid, not awesome, on face-offs; and he is not consistent at all. The $3.5 we threw at him is based almost entirely on potential. Unlike Bourque, he does have potential. I am skeptical that he will fulfill it but I don't rule out the possibility. Zoot Suit is less skeptical. We'll see how it turns out.

He has more potential than Bourque based solely on his age.

I don't think it will happen, but you have to remember that Bourque is only two seasons removed from his 4 year stretch of really good offensive production. The fact that 4 years ago he put up 27 goals, and 3 years ago he put up 18 needs to be remembered. It isn't beyond belief that he'll suddenly find that touch again - it's not like he's aged much in that time frame -- he just lost his brain or something.

When you're looking at the potential of two players, past performance is a factor. We KNOW Bourque could put up 27 goals this year. He's done it, he has the capability, he just needs to show up every game and make it happen.

We DON'T know what Eller is capable of. I hope it's more than he's doing now. If it were 27 goals this year, I'd be elated. But we simply don't know. We're all hoping he's never shown us, and does soon.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

He has more potential than Bourque based solely on his age.

I don't think it will happen, but you have to remember that Bourque is only two seasons removed from his 4 year stretch of really good offensive production. The fact that 4 years ago he put up 27 goals, and 3 years ago he put up 18 needs to be remembered. It isn't beyond belief that he'll suddenly find that touch again - it's not like he's aged much in that time frame -- he just lost his brain or something.

When you're looking at the potential of two players, past performance is a factor. We KNOW Bourque could put up 27 goals this year. He's done it, he has the capability, he just needs to show up every game and make it happen.

We DON'T know what Eller is capable of. I hope it's more than he's doing now. If it were 27 goals this year, I'd be elated. But we simply don't know. We're all hoping he's never shown us, and does soon.

It's an interesting point. At day's end, though, I'd rather be spending on a younger guy with an interesting potential ceiling than an old guy who is four years removed from being an impact player. I disagree that we "know" Bourque can do it again; four years is an eternity, especially the way Bourque has looked for much of that span (i.e., completely and utterly disinterested). You may as well say that Gomez once routinely got 60 points so we "know" he can do it again.

Skepticism is the appropriate attitude to both of these enigmatic players. Eller gets more rope because he at least can still claim to be going through growing pains. Bourque has no excuse, unless it be concussions, which in itself bodes poorly for his future prospects.

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

It's an interesting point. At day's end, though, I'd rather be spending on a younger guy with an interesting potential ceiling than an old guy who is four years removed from being an impact player. I disagree that we "know" Bourque can do it again; four years is an eternity, especially the way Bourque has looked for much of that span (i.e., completely and utterly disinterested). You may as well say that Gomez once routinely got 60 points so we "know" he can do it again.

Skepticism is the appropriate attitude to both of these enigmatic players. Eller gets more rope because he at least can still claim to be going through growing pains. Bourque has no excuse, unless it be concussions, which in itself bodes poorly for his future prospects.

I agree on all counts. (Except that Bourque was an impact player in calgary during 2011-2012, with 13 goals and 3 assists in 38 games. The problems started the moment he got traded to montreal, where he only got 5 goals, 3 assists in his next 38 games -- still managing a respectable 18 goals in a 76 game season, but down significantly from 27 the year before. By the looks of his numbers, he'd have gotten 26 had he stayed in Calgary. So he's really only 2.5 years removed from being an impact player, not four. I'd love for someone to pinpoint what the difference was in calgary that let him excel, but fat chance of that, i think. I think the biggest problem Montreal and Bourque are having, is that the Montreal Canadiens are not the Calgary Flames. I can't for the life of me understand why that would be a bad thing for Bourque, but it seems to be the case.)

What I disagree with is giving Eller 3.5 million a year with that extra rope.

[DON]

All you are comparing is points between the two.

Bourques best is 58 points, Eller was 54 point pace in shortened season, so no real diff.

But Eller is 7 years younger, Bourque has had a whooping 16 assists in 128 games with Habs, dosent take faceoffs nor play PK and is a Centre vs Winger, so not quite good comparison.

And I doubt any GMs would trade Eller for Bourque even up.

[Commandant]

The bottom line is that Bourque is ######ing terrible and the only reason he scored some goals in the playoffs was that his shooting percentage went through the roof to an unsustainable level for a short sample size.

I'd trade him in a second if we could....

I'm no huge Eller fan, and I think they gave him too much, but based on contract vs production Bourque is the worst on the Habs by far right now.

[Neech]

Yeah, I'd unload Bourque in a heartbeat if we got some value for him or filled the capspace with a better player, but otherwise he's come through in the playoffs for us and we're a team trying to go deep.

[JoeLassister]

The bottom line is that Bourque is ######ing terrible and the only reason he scored some goals in the playoffs was that his shooting percentage went through the roof to an unsustainable level for a short sample size.

I'd trade him in a second if we could....

I'm no huge Eller fan, and I think they gave him too much, but based on contract vs production Bourque is the worst on the Habs by far right now.

This sentence makes no sense.

I understand your point, but the reason he scored goals has nothing to do with an increasing shooting %.

In fact, it's the opposite. The reason for an increasing shooting percentage is that he scored goals...

Now that being said, while it is true that his shooting % was really, but really higher than usual, it is not really fair to take away from Bourque and his teamates the fact that they scored some beautiful goals and made beautiful plays in the playoffs, which led to more goals.

For example, that slick shot he took after like 6-7 seconds against Tampa. Beautiful shots will make % go up, because they will go in the net. Not the opposite.

[Guest Stogey24]

This sentence makes no sense.

I understand your point, but the reason he scored goals has nothing to do with an increasing shooting %.

In fact, it's the opposite. The reason for an increasing shooting percentage is that he scored goals...

Now that being said, while it is true that his shooting % was really, but really higher than usual, it is not really fair to take away from Bourque and his teamates the fact that they scored some beautiful goals and made beautiful plays in the playoffs, which led to more goals.

For example, that slick shot he took after like 6-7 seconds against Tampa. Beautiful shots will make % go up, because they will go in the net. Not the opposite.

Only a stats guy would say "the only reason he scored was because his shooting percentage was high". He scored because he found his game. Hating at it's finest

[DON]

But would you want to wager that lil Rene will have a good, moderately productive regular season?

Even frickin Emelin had more offense, in fewer games, than Numbnuts did.

And Bourque still thought he was playing well, when asked what was the problem.

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

But would you want to wager that lil Rene will have a good, moderately productive regular season?

Hell no.

I also am not willing to wager that Lars Eller will have a good, moderately productive regular season, either.

I hope they both do. I want to be impressed. But I find skepticism tempered with being aware of the possibilities is always the best way to look at something.

[ICEWATER77]

I hope bourque continues his post season success this season, and he just may as he's playing alongside eller again, just to shut all you haters up! holy christ, how quickly you forget how great that line was in the playoff run! GO BOURQUE GO!

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

I hope bourque continues his post season success this season, and he just may as he's playing alongside eller again, just to shut all you haters up! holy christ, how quickly you forget how great that line was in the playoff run! GO BOURQUE GO!

I hope so, too! I just don't expect it.

Damn, though, what an amazing team this would be if everyone plays up to potential.

[ICEWATER77]

it's shaping up nicely, I think. mb and staff are a welcome addition I tell ya

[hab29RETIRED]

The problem with Bourque did not start when he was traded to Montreal. He would score 2 or 3 goals in a game and then disappear for the next 5 games. He was useless when he wasn't scoring and played like he was 3'11". He was only physical when elbowing or high sticking someone in the head, or hitting someone from behind. He was suspended 2 or 3 times and would take stupid penalties. He was a cancer in the room, was ripped by the Calgary media during his past two years for his lazy, disinterestness and lack of physicality. He was constantly ripped for playing like a power forward for 10 to 15 games a year and a balarina the rest of the season. He was ripped three weeks running by Kelly Hrudy on HNIC for being one of the laziest and softest players in the game. The guy was a bum and when he was producing benefited from playing behind iginla.

He is exactly the kind of player that MB says he doesn't want and exactly the type of player i would have expected Gauthier to trade for.

Bourque was a bum, is a bum and will always be a bum. Eller is still a guy trying to figure out how to be a pro. Bourque doesn't know what it means to be a pro and probably can't even spell pro.

I would trade Bourque for hockey tape, but doubt anyone would be willing.

I agree on all counts. (Except that Bourque was an impact player in calgary during 2011-2012, with 13 goals and 3 assists in 38 games. The problems started the moment he got traded to montreal, where he only got 5 goals, 3 assists in his next 38 games -- still managing a respectable 18 goals in a 76 game season, but down significantly from 27 the year before. By the looks of his numbers, he'd have gotten 26 had he stayed in Calgary. So he's really only 2.5 years removed from being an impact player, not four. I'd love for someone to pinpoint what the difference was in calgary that let him excel, but fat chance of that, i think. I think the biggest problem Montreal and Bourque are having, is that the Montreal Canadiens are not the Calgary Flames. I can't for the life of me understand why that would be a bad thing for Bourque, but it seems to be the case.)

What I disagree with is giving Eller 3.5 million a year with that extra rope.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

He has more potential than Bourque based solely on his age.

I don't think it will happen, but you have to remember that Bourque is only two seasons removed from his 4 year stretch of really good offensive production. The fact that 4 years ago he put up 27 goals, and 3 years ago he put up 18 needs to be remembered. It isn't beyond belief that he'll suddenly find that touch again - it's not like he's aged much in that time frame -- he just lost his brain or something.

When you're looking at the potential of two players, past performance is a factor. We KNOW Bourque could put up 27 goals this year. He's done it, he has the capability, he just needs to show up every game and make it happen.

We DON'T know what Eller is capable of. I hope it's more than he's doing now. If it were 27 goals this year, I'd be elated. But we simply don't know. We're all hoping he's never shown us, and does soon.

Rene Bourque is more than just a couple of seasons away from being a 25+ goal guy. The year he was traded he was lambasted for his lack of effort in Calgary. So he stunk that year even before getting to MTL. He's also had concussions and a lengthy suspension which I believe changed his playing style. Rene Bourque is one of the biggest dogs in the league. I have zero faith that he can get back to that level of production and I would be surprised if he even got 15 goals this year.

[habs rule]

The problem with Bourque did not start when he was traded to Montreal. He would score 2 or 3 goals in a game and then disappear for the next 5 games. He was useless when he wasn't scoring and played like he was 3'11". He was only physical when elbowing or high sticking someone in the head, or hitting someone from behind. He was suspended 2 or 3 times and would take stupid penalties. He was a cancer in the room, was ripped by the Calgary media during his past two years for his lazy, disinterestness and lack of physicality. He was constantly ripped for playing like a power forward for 10 to 15 games a year and a balarina the rest of the season. He was ripped three weeks running by Kelly Hrudy on HNIC for being one of the laziest and softest players in the game. The guy was a bum and when he was producing benefited from playing behind iginla.

He is exactly the kind of player that MB says he doesn't want and exactly the type of player i would have expected Gauthier to trade for.

Bourque was a bum, is a bum and will always be a bum. Eller is still a guy trying to figure out how to be a pro. Bourque doesn't know what it means to be a pro and probably can't even spell pro.

I would trade Bourque for hockey tape, but doubt anyone would be willing.

Whooee let her all out big boy don't hold back. So I take it you think Bourque could improve quite a bit.

[KoRP]

The problem with Bourque did not start when he was traded to Montreal. He would score 2 or 3 goals in a game and then disappear for the next 5 games. He was useless when he wasn't scoring and played like he was 3'11". He was only physical when elbowing or high sticking someone in the head, or hitting someone from behind. He was suspended 2 or 3 times and would take stupid penalties. He was a cancer in the room, was ripped by the Calgary media during his past two years for his lazy, disinterestness and lack of physicality. He was constantly ripped for playing like a power forward for 10 to 15 games a year and a balarina the rest of the season. He was ripped three weeks running by Kelly Hrudy on HNIC for being one of the laziest and softest players in the game. The guy was a bum and when he was producing benefited from playing behind iginla.

He is exactly the kind of player that MB says he doesn't want and exactly the type of player i would have expected Gauthier to trade for.

Bourque was a bum, is a bum and will always be a bum. Eller is still a guy trying to figure out how to be a pro. Bourque doesn't know what it means to be a pro and probably can't even spell pro.

I would trade Bourque for hockey tape, but doubt anyone would be willing.

LoL, hells yeah! Post of the day, if not week!

[Habs30/31]

Would like to see the head coach make a change at the top of the pecking order. I will never take any team seriously, if said team employs Tomas Plekanic as the top forward. ( leader in ice time). MT plays the guy like he is Gordie Howe.

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

If Bourque were playing with all the lack of intensity he always seems to play with, and yet scoring 25+ goals, our complaints about him would be very different than what they are now, and he'd be earning his salary and worth his spot on the roster.

The fact remains, 2.5 years ago, when he was traded to Montreal, he was on pace for an easy 26 goals in Calgary.

He finished with 18, and has never lit the lamp in Montreal the way he did in Calgary. He may have issues that started before Montreal, but it was in Montreal where he lost his ability to find the back of the net.

[KoRP]

I think a lot of Bourque's trouble has been concussions, none of us really know his character, so that's all speculation, and Kelly Hrudey? I haven't cared what he said since he was wearing that bandana in the net!

Bourque always fought in the western conference, and he was pretty good at it too, but as with Moen, it took it's toll, especially that fiasco vs Leafs. Before that he looked like he was buying in to the Montreal mindset, and might juts score 20 plus for us.

Hell, his first shift for the Habs, he had to fight a Washington goon for a hit from behind on a softy Russian, wasshisname, in Carolina now.... and he beat the goon.

At any rate, Bourque has looked like he wants to earn another contract this year, somewhere, he looks aggressive and in good shape this camp. I'm sure if he does get a contract, it won't be with us, but he may do us some good before his tenure is over, maybe even build some type of trade value, dunno...

[Machine of Loving Grace]

If Bourque were playing with all the lack of intensity he always seems to play with, and yet scoring 25+ goals, our complaints about him would be very different than what they are now, and he'd be earning his salary and worth his spot on the roster.

The fact remains, 2.5 years ago, when he was traded to Montreal, he was on pace for an easy 26 goals in Calgary.

He finished with 18, and has never lit the lamp in Montreal the way he did in Calgary. He may have issues that started before Montreal, but it was in Montreal where he lost his ability to find the back of the net.

We had a guy like that. His name was Michael Ryder.

For all of your defences of Bourque, you always go to the same point: Bourque doesn't score in Montreal. Which means he's worthless to this team at his price. He had a Fernando Pisani post-season. Whee. Good for him. He's a waste of cap space.

Bergevin seems quite good at clearing cap space when need be. I think he'll do away with Bourque when he sees the right opportunity.

[DON]

Dont care what he did in Calgary, when a defensive d-man like Emelin gets more points in fewer games than a winger playing 14+minutes with some PP time, is not good.

His 16 assists in Montreal must be the worst rate of any player forward to ever play that much icetime (0.125 assist/game)?

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

We had a guy like that. His name was Michael Ryder.

For all of your defences of Bourque, you always go to the same point: Bourque doesn't score in Montreal. Which means he's worthless to this team at his price. He had a Fernando Pisani post-season. Whee. Good for him. He's a waste of cap space.

Bergevin seems quite good at clearing cap space when need be. I think he'll do away with Bourque when he sees the right opportunity.

I'm actually not defending Bourque. I'd happily move him, if I thought any other team were stupid enough to want him.

The point of this is the earlier comparison to Eller and the double standard between him and Bourque... it boggles my mind how many people defend Eller and his ridiculous contract when Bourque has almost as much upside and he's the #1 goat. I'm not saying Bourque doesn't deserve the criticism. He does. I'm saying we need to be directing the same critical eye at Lars Eller, who's less accomplished in his admittedly shorter career with no sign of improvement, yet. He's done nothing to deserve a 3.5 million a year contract, at all. He's done nothing to warrant the expectations people have of him. His flashes of brilliance are no flashier than René Bourque's. His defensive "prowess" is no more impressive than Bourque's. He's gotta pull up his socks, and I certainly hope he does, but so far he's done NOTHING to indicate to me he'll ever be anything more than he has been.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Dont care what he did in Calgary, when a defensive d-man like Emelin gets more points in fewer games than a winger playing 14+minutes with some PP time, is not good.

His 16 assists in Montreal must be the worst rate of any player forward to ever play that much icetime (0.125 assist/game)?

Advanced Stats based on 5v5 (all Habs, 13-14)

Rene Bourque's goals per 60 minutes: 0.45 (12th)

Rene Bourque's first assists per 60 minutes: 0.30 (19th)

Rene Bourque's second assists per 60 minutes: 0.22 (16th)

Rene Bourque's points per 60 minutes: 0.97 (15th)

Moen is a 1.15 for points per 60 minutes. Bournival a 1.17. Dale Weise an impressive 1.80.