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Gonchar in, Moen out!


revvvrob

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You're waiting for Bobby Orr Part II to appear out of a 17th overall in 2011 defenceman?

Are you dealing with a concussion right now?

There's a vast gap in between Bobby Orr and "NHL-quality defenseman." Beaulieu does not yet fall inside that gap.

A 2011 first round pick should be much better than we're seeing 3 years after the draft.

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Guest Stogey24

Meh. I haven't seen any offense out of Tinordi.

But I haven't seen any out of Beaulieu,

Thing is, Offense is Beaulieu's seule raison d'être, so if he's not providing it, there's a problem. Tinordi's here for other reasons.

Beaulieu looked decent last night. Don't understand your hate for him. He made some good passes and also fought and won in the Minni game.

The kid is starting to realise the smart play is the easy play, for now anyways. He's had to adjust him game a lot. He's been a free range defensemen his entire career, you can't play that style in the show and especially not with a coach like Therrien. His game will come around with steady reps in Montreal

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I am not going to miss Travis Moen...

Gonchar, who I have cursed for killing the Habs more than twice over the years, not that long ago I watched a game and was furious when he at 40 beat us on a great individual effort, something that Moen can't even spell.

I am not going to expect anymore than a veteran depth defenseman, as in a PP boost/part time player/PP coach, likely on LTIR and salary off the books after this season.

Moen is about our 4th best PK killer this season, and I'm being generous at that, waste of nearly 2 mil, gimmie Ryan White back any day over Moen, cya!

Gonchar isn't going to hurt, and he is great depth at D....

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I am not going to miss Travis Moen...

Gonchar, who I have cursed for killing the Habs more than twice over the years, not that long ago I watched a game and was furious when he at 40 beat us on a great individual effort, something that Moen can't even spell.

I am not going to expect anymore than a veteran depth defenseman, as in a PP boost/part time player/PP coach, likely on LTIR and salary off the books after this season.

Moen is about our 4th best PK killer this season, and I'm being generous at that, waste of nearly 2 mil, gimmie Ryan White back any day over Moen, cya!

Gonchar isn't going to hurt, and he is great depth at D....

I think that sounds a bit harsh toward Moen, but I can't say I disagree with anything there (Except for the Ryan White idea... Ryan White made us worse by being on the ice. We played better shorthanded than with him skating.)

If we didn't sign Weise and Malhotra, I'd probably be screaming blue murder, but the fact is Moen's redundant now. He's not bad at his role, and he gives his all every game, but we have better guys who try just as hard. It sucks, but it's how it is.

Gonchar... is too fricking expensive. At 5 million, i feel like I should be livid. Okay, okay, with 18.3% of the season gone, and Dallas holding onto 8% of his salary, his total cap hit to Montreal is only 3.76 million, and with 1.5 million of Moen's salary going to Dallas, that means we're getting Gonchar for 2.26 Million extra. That's still too much.

But the fact is, we have the room this year. Next year, we'll need that cap space, and Gonchar and Moen will both be off the books. That makes this deal far better than my gut instinct tells me.

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Beaulieu looked decent last night. Don't understand your hate for him.

Don't care how he "looked." Show it to me on the scoreboard. Bourque "looked" good on the ice, day in and day out, bad luck, every shift. Pucks off the posts, pucks that should have gone in, great saves against...but eventually, consistent bad luck is obviously not a matter of luck. Bourque's a potential 27 goal scorer - he's done it before, in recent history, in Calgary the year before he came to Montreal. That doesn't mean I want him here stinking it up while we wait for a return to form that's probably never gonna come.

I give Beaulieu more credit than that - he's a kid. He's got potential. He might eventually be NHL ready. But right now, he's done less for us this year than René Bourque has. Think about that.

And as I said in the other thread...

It's not a matter of hate. It's a matter of "What has he done for us?"

Results are all that matters. You don't put a guy on the ice at the NHL level to develop him to get results. You develop him in a development league. If he's ready, he will give you results at the NHL level from day 1. Show me the numbers. Show me the points. Show me what he's done to merit his roster spot - because he's played enough games that we have a good feel for what he's going to give us right now.

If Beaulieu had put up 4-5 points in the first 10 games he played in, I'd be for keeping him. But this offensive defenseman has 0 goals, 0 assists, and is a -2 in 10 games played this year. Someone said Tinordi's given us more offense, and technically, he has. His paltry 2 assists represent infinitely more offense than 0 points.

I don't give a flying frack about potential, or talent, or age (except as a gage for what to expect coming from Hamilton when we need newer guys.) I only care about results. Results first. Development will come only when results RIGHT NOW are prioritized first.

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Guest Stogey24
Watch a game or two instead of just checking the stat sheet every night.

There have been changes in his style of play. He's slowed his game down a lot. The points will come.

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There's a vast gap in between Bobby Orr and "NHL-quality defenseman." Beaulieu does not yet fall inside that gap.

A 2011 first round pick should be much better than we're seeing 3 years after the draft.

You're wrong about that. The first three defensemen taken in the top ten of the draft that year have had success (Larsson, Hamilton, Brodin) while all the defensemen taking in Beaulieu's range are struggling, like 21 year old, middle of the first round defensemen will do.

PLAYER # PICK GAMES GOALS ASSISTS POINTS

Larsson 4 136 4 25 29

Hamilton 9 122 15 36 51

Brodin 10 136 10 22 32

Murphy 12 58 2 11 13

Oleksiak 14 33 1 3 4

Beaulieu 17 33 0 4 4

Klefbomm 19 19 1 2 3

Murphy 20 45 3 8 11

Morrow 23 5 0 0 0

Percy 25 8 0 3 3

In fact, Adam Larsson was a healthy scratch at the start of this year, so out of all the defensemen picked in the first round of the draft, only Dougie Hamilton appears to be a slam dunk top-2 dman at this stage of the game.

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I don't mind the deal. If i'm not mistaken Gonchar is actually a RD who sometimes plays the left. Wouldn't mind sitting Subban a couple of games to give his head a shake. he has ben brutal. He and Markov are a really bad pairing.

I actually do like Moen and what he brings to the table, unfortunately I think concussions took away his real tough play from years before. Bowman was ok, i'm wondering if De La Rose gets a shot at some time on the 4th line, he's big, defensively pretty good.

I guess we will see where Gonchar fits and how often he is used. Should definitely help the PP, he likes to shoot which no one else seems to want to do.

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Watch a game or two instead of just checking the stat sheet every night.

There have been changes in his style of play. He's slowed his game down a lot. The points will come.

If you base opinions on watching play, one could have come to the conclusion Alexei Kovalev is a future-hall-of-fame forward. One might assume, watching play, that Oleg Petrov was going to be an NHL superstar. Even this year, watching play, you might think René Bourque is a legitimate goal scorer. For some things - such as defensive play - watching play is a better gage than any stat they've come up with. A great defensive player can have a "minus" rating, and very few blocks or hits. But when it comes to offense, nothing tells the story as much as the scoresheet. As you say, if the play is legitimately good, the points will come. I don't doubt that eventually, Beaulieu's points will come. But right now, after all the time he's spent in Montreal, I'm still not seeing it.

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It's not about "mistakes they are making." Mistakes are expected. It's what they're contributing when they're not making mistakes. For Tinordi, that's smart defensive play, hard hits, some grit, muscle and sheer size. For Beaulieu, it generally appears to be skating around aimlessly with his head in the rafters. He contributes nothing, yet.

You can't develop talent to NHL readiness by putting them in the NHL. You develop talent to NHL readiness in a development league until they're NHL ready, then you continue to develop them from NHL readiness to impact player at the NHL level. There's this misconception around here that you develop kids by throwing them into the toughest league in the world unprepared. That simply doesn't work. All you teach them is how to be useless. Beaulieu was barely adequate in Hamilton last year...he's a fringe AHLer at the moment. That doesn't translate into someone you want in your lineup at the NHL level. Let him dominate the AHL as a star offensive defenseman, then we'll know he can take the next step.

"there is a misconception here that you dev elope kids by throwing them into the toughest league in the world unprepared"

like galchenyuk ? not a game in the minors.......

galagher.... half a season with dogs

subban ....one season with dogs

price....half a season with dogs

patches......one season with dogs

who is the misconception with?

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"there is a misconception here that you dev elope kids by throwing them into the toughest league in the world unprepared"

like galchenyuk ? not a game in the minors.......

galagher.... half a season with dogs

subban ....one season with dogs

price....half a season with dogs

patches......one season with dogs

who is the misconception with?

But they were already NHL ready when they joined the league. Galchenyuk produced from day 1. Oh, not up to his potential, nobody expected that, but he contributed. Gallagher, too. Subban surprised us and looked like a future superstar from the moment he laced up skates in a habs uniform. All these guys contributed.

Beaulieu has a long string of zeros to go with almost every NHL game he's played in. You don't want to compare beaulieu to those guys, because that comparison emphasizes exactly what Beaulieu is not yet doing.

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look around the league ................its younger than ever................ boston brought up a guy name griffith, never heard of him. he is playing with lucic and kretchi in "the toughest league in the world" 20 years old....scored 4 goals already. hamilton played one year in junior after being drafted. next year in "the toughest league in the world" playing along side chara for developing purposes. how is that rielly guy doing in t.o? what beailue needs four years in hamilton before he can crack the habs joke of a 6 man d unit. totally disagree with that.


But they were already NHL ready when they joined the league. Galchenyuk produced from day 1. Oh, not up to his potential, nobody expected that, but he contributed. Gallagher, too. Subban surprised us and looked like a future superstar from the moment he laced up skates in a habs uniform. All these guys contributed.

Beaulieu has a long string of zeros to go with almost every NHL game he's played in.

do did dd, where is he now.

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But they were already NHL ready when they joined the league. Galchenyuk produced from day 1. Oh, not up to his potential, nobody expected that, but he contributed. Gallagher, too. Subban surprised us and looked like a future superstar from the moment he laced up skates in a habs uniform. All these guys contributed.

Beaulieu has a long string of zeros to go with almost every NHL game he's played in. You don't want to compare beaulieu to those guys, because that comparison emphasizes exactly what Beaulieu is not yet doing.

3rd year in the league and galchenyuk is not even progressed to playing him at center. listen you may have a point....and if the habs are playing it safe with the two kids and not rushing them...............its a brand new policy because chucky was rushed, gally was rushed, price was rushed, ...............all came through it and are the better for it.................all of a suddedn these two kids are made of glass? habs are not rushing guys.............instead signing old band aids wjile in my opinion stunting the growth of top prospects.

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do did dd, where is he now.

Assuming I'm translating that statement right, no, he really didn't.

David Desharnais had one assist in his first 6 games, true. And he didn't stay with the team that year.

The next year he had 8 goals and 14 assists for 22 points in his rookie year...respectable. Though it wasn't enough for a full time spot - he only played half the season (43 games).

The year after that he put up 60 points and never looked back. From his sophmore year until now, 3 seasons later, he's averaging 0.67 points per game since his rookie year.

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scored 4 goals already.

Hence, why he's still on that line.

Likewise, Hamilton started producing from day 1.

When a player is ready for the NHL, they will contribute in the lineup. If they are not ready, putting them in the lineup is not going to help.

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i'd play beaulieu over gonchar against the bruins. I can see it happening already, gonchar trying to retrieve a dump-in, being too slow, and being a turnover machine or becoming part of the glass. it'll be ugly folks

Given a choice, I'd play Tinordi over either of them against the Boo-ins.

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Bowman was ok, i'm wondering if De La Rose gets a shot at some time on the 4th line, he's big, defensively pretty good.

The catch with de la Rose is that he's subject to the '9-game rule' that other junior aged players are. Is it worth using (some of) those games now to give him some fourth line time now or save them for later in the year when he might be able to have more of an impact?

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I was always a Moen fan on the Habs. Despite never winning a fight and having hands of stone, he was effective out there as a 4th liner. Is he paid too much? Perhaps, but at least you know what you are going to get from him game in and game out. For what he does he can be replaced at a cheaper rate. Thanks for the service Travis.

I wasn't even aware that Gonchar was still playing, so when I heard about the deal I laughed. A team can never have enough defensive depth though through a long season and playoffs. Having not seen much of Gonchar since he left Ottawa, I can't really comment on his play. But one would have to assume that on a team with Cup aspirations this year, he is will be quite useful on the 2nd pp unit and as a 6th/7th dman. I like the trade

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I was always a Moen fan on the Habs. Despite never winning a fight and having hands of stone, he was effective out there as a 4th liner. Is he paid too much? Perhaps, but at least you know what you are going to get from him game in and game out. For what he does he can be replaced at a cheaper rate. Thanks for the service Travis.

There! that sums up my opinion of Travis Moen. Thank you.

I'm not sure if 1.8 million is too much for a guy like that though. Don't forget, 3 million is the league average - 23 man roster, 69 million dollar cap.

What that means, is if you're making more than 3 million dollars, you better be one of the following:

-starting goaltender

-top 6 forward

-top 4 defenseman

If you're are one of the following:

-backup goaltender

-bottom 6 forward

-bottom 2 defenseman

-pressbox depth

...then you better be earning less than 3 million.

(Entry level contracts tip that balance a little, but it still holds. Any regular player you sign for less than 3 million gives you MORE cap space to work with for everyone else, where any player you sign for more than 3 million gives you LESS cap space to work with for everyone else.)

The simple fact is, it was 1.8 million we didn't need to be paying, because we had other guys to perform his role that we wanted on the ice more than Moen.

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UPDATE:

markov and PK split up on the PP today

markov beaulieau (insert gonchar)

subban gilbert

looks like were already setting up a markov/ gonchar tandem on the PP and i couldn't be happier that MT is finally listening to my plea for 2 lefties on the point or 2 righties on the point.... this is going to pay instant dividends as soon as tomorrow!!!

ultimately id like to see

subban (left half boards) galchenyuk (behind net presence) pacioretty (right half boards)

markov gonchar

i know wrong thread but I'm rurally excited......

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Tinordi sent down to Hamilton today.

Okay, now I kinda feel irritated.

It is irritating, because from what I've seen Tinordi has played decently. Presumably the logic is less that he sucks and more that he will do better by getting massive ice-time rather than the sheltered minutes he'll get here. I'll console myself that he's bound to be back in tolerably short order.

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Tinordi sent down to Hamilton today.

Okay, now I kinda feel irritated.

It doesn't surprise me that he went down. It's clear that Therrien doesn't trust him right now (after playing 15+ minutes his first three games, he has only cracked the 11 minute plateau once since) while Beaulieu is seeing his ice time increase lately. There's little point in carrying eight d-men, especially if it's the youngsters that are going to sit. It's better for Tinordi to play big minutes in the minors than play on the fourth pairing in practice only.

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It is irritating, because from what I've seen Tinordi has played decently. Presumably the logic is less that he sucks and more that he will do better by getting massive ice-time rather than the sheltered minutes he'll get here. I'll console myself that he's bound to be back in tolerably short order.

i think he'll have to clear waivers to be sent down as soon as next year?? so if he's not gonna play might as well at this point.... either play him or send him down... leave him there and give him his minutes so he can be the player we expect of him... i just think were more balanced with him up instead of beaulieau... especially with gonchar now in the mix

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