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Fire Bergevin


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Whoah, whoah....

 

MB could have gotten us Duchene and destroyed the next three years of our franchise to do so. And we would not have won with Duchene.

 

We all know this.

 

Our core is good but whatever IT is, they don't have IT. He gave them the best chance he could without selling the franchise down the river.

 

The real test for MB was not the trade deadline - it's this summer. If he doesn't go with a scorched earth move, (Pax, Plex, Emelin, et al.) then I'm disappointed. And he should be fired because the summer market could be played to sell our aging core at a premium. Hell he might trade Price and I'd be cool with it as long as he gets the buyer to overpay. 

 

We have to remember that hockey is a business of value investing not speculation based on 25 years of pent up emotions.

 

MB understands this and I applaud his ability to make moves based on value.

 

Now burn it Marc. Burn.

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33 minutes ago, zumpano21 said:

Whoah, whoah....

 

MB could have gotten us Duchene and destroyed the next three years of our franchise to do so. And we would not have won with Duchene.

 

We all know this.

 

Our core is good but whatever IT is, they don't have IT. He gave them the best chance he could without selling the franchise down the river.

 

The real test for MB was not the trade deadline - it's this summer. If he doesn't go with a scorched earth move, (Pax, Plex, Emelin, et al.) then I'm disappointed. And he should be fired because the summer market could be played to sell our aging core at a premium. Hell he might trade Price and I'd be cool with it as long as he gets the buyer to overpay. 

 

We have to remember that hockey is a business of value investing not speculation based on 25 years of pent up emotions.

 

MB understands this and I applaud his ability to make moves based on value.

 

Now burn it Marc. Burn.

I thought last summer was supposed to be his big test.  Guess what he failed.  Only difference between the two years is that price was healthy this year and the core is older now.  The top D is much older.  Price only has one year left and pleks is washed up. Oh and unlike going into last summer when it looked like galchenyuk was our number 1 centre, our #1 centre going into this summer is danuelt.

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7 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I thought last summer was supposed to be his big test.  Guess what he failed.  Only difference between the two years is that price was healthy this year and the core is older now.  The top D is much older.  Price only has one year left and pleks is washed up. Oh and unlike going into last summer when it looked like galchenyuk was our number 1 centre, our #1 centre going into this summer is danuelt.

On June 30 of last year I would say that the Canadiens had a good chance at a Cup run.  Most of the analysts also agreed that montreal would be the best Canadian team and in all likelihood, a top 10 finisher. 

 

On Jul 1, MB got the best FA not named Stamkos.

 

Given the positive outlook, I think MB did fine mostly by NOT paying for goods we can't afford.

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I agree with the sentiment that MB didn't have some sort of epic fail last summer or at the deadline...but he has failed overall since the start of his tenure.  Failing to land a top center, and banking on a kid to fill that role quickly (Galchenyuk) was a colossal ####-up.  If anything, you get solid vet offensive center and hope/pray #27 can handle being the number-two center, with your wildest dreams being he'll develop into that number-one everyone wants in a few years.   But, that didn't happen...MB rolled the dice on a longshot and crapped out.  We can only hope the kid hasn't been ruined by the immense pressure added by those sky high expectations.  The other holes in the lineup are amplified as a result, and with a pretty bare blue-chip prospect cupboard, it's hard to see how it gets better without first getting even worse.

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7 hours ago, sbhatt said:

I agree with the sentiment that MB didn't have some sort of epic fail last summer or at the deadline...but he has failed overall since the start of his tenure.  Failing to land a top center, and banking on a kid to fill that role quickly (Galchenyuk) was a colossal ####-up.  If anything, you get solid vet offensive center and hope/pray #27 can handle being the number-two center, with your wildest dreams being he'll develop into that number-one everyone wants in a few years.   But, that didn't happen...MB rolled the dice on a longshot and crapped out.  We can only hope the kid hasn't been ruined by the immense pressure added by those sky high expectations.  The other holes in the lineup are amplified as a result, and with a pretty bare blue-chip prospect cupboard, it's hard to see how it gets better without first getting even worse.

27 is no longer a kid. He is what he is. I can't see much faith in him now.

 

Matthews, by contrast, is a kid and he's doing just fine as a centre in TO.

 

Management had good reason to assume they had an in house solution to a long standing issue. Turns out 27 isn't up to the job despite everyone's best efforts.

 

Sell the core. No one's safe if we can get the buyer to overpay. Get picks and prospects. Restock the cupboard. 

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44 minutes ago, zumpano21 said:

27 is no longer a kid. He is what he is. I can't see much faith in him now.

 

Matthews, by contrast, is a kid and he's doing just fine as a centre in TO.

 

Management had good reason to assume they had an in house solution to a long standing issue. Turns out 27 isn't up to the job despite everyone's best efforts.

 

Sell the core. No one's safe if we can get the buyer to overpay. Get picks and prospects. Restock the cupboard. 

McDavid is young centre and doing OK, but what does that have to do with Galchenyuk?

A team that's finishes 8th overall, is just a bit unlikely to 'sell the core', that is simple foolish as you know Montreal fans would riot if missed playoffs for couple years in a row...on purpose.

Turns out Galchneyuk is likely better off on the wing...for now at least and again I say that is fine by me.

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8 hours ago, sbhatt said:

I agree with the sentiment that MB didn't have some sort of epic fail last summer or at the deadline...but he has failed overall since the start of his tenure.  Failing to land a top center, and banking on a kid to fill that role quickly (Galchenyuk) was a colossal ####-up.  If anything, you get solid vet offensive center and hope/pray #27 can handle being the number-two center, with your wildest dreams being he'll develop into that number-one everyone wants in a few years.   But, that didn't happen...MB rolled the dice on a longshot and crapped out.  We can only hope the kid hasn't been ruined by the immense pressure added by those sky high expectations.  The other holes in the lineup are amplified as a result, and with a pretty bare blue-chip prospect cupboard, it's hard to see how it gets better without first getting even worse.

 

Yes. The case for firing Bergevin is not based on a single summer or a single move. It's cumulative. What I would add is that the apparent mishandling of Galy is only one part of that wider picture - a picture that, sadly, includes a weak player-development pipeline. 

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54 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Yes. The case for firing Bergevin is not based on a single summer or a single move. It's cumulative. What I would add is that the apparent mishandling of Galy is only one part of that wider picture - a picture that, sadly, includes a weak player-development pipeline. 

 

I don't see him fired this summer. They've got one more season, realistically, to make some noise with the different deals coming up and the age of some players. There are too many balls in the air to have a new GM. 

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13 hours ago, zumpano21 said:

Whoah, whoah....

 

MB could have gotten us Duchene and destroyed the next three years of our franchise to do so. And we would not have won with Duchene.

 

We all know this.

 

Our core is good but whatever IT is, they don't have IT. He gave them the best chance he could without selling the franchise down the river.

 

The real test for MB was not the trade deadline - it's this summer. If he doesn't go with a scorched earth move, (Pax, Plex, Emelin, et al.) then I'm disappointed. And he should be fired because the summer market could be played to sell our aging core at a premium. Hell he might trade Price and I'd be cool with it as long as he gets the buyer to overpay. 

 

We have to remember that hockey is a business of value investing not speculation based on 25 years of pent up emotions.

 

MB understands this and I applaud his ability to make moves based on value.

 

Now burn it Marc. Burn.

 

Or he could have acquired just one forward with skill as a deadline rental for a cheap price. 

 

Habs gave up... Sven Andrighetto, a 4th round pick, a 6th round pick, and got 1g 1a in 50 gp from 3 scrubs. 

 

anaheim gave up a conditional second rounder and got Patrick Eaves 12 goals, 5 assists, 17 points in 24 games for Anaheim. 
Florida gave up a third rounder and got 10 points in 20 games from Vanek
Boston gave up a 6th rounder and got Drew Stafford. 10 points in 24 games, 


He didn't have to gut this roster to add some offence. 

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2 hours ago, zumpano21 said:

27 is no longer a kid. He is what he is. I can't see much faith in him now.

 

Matthews, by contrast, is a kid and he's doing just fine as a centre in TO.

 

Management had good reason to assume they had an in house solution to a long standing issue. Turns out 27 isn't up to the job despite everyone's best efforts.

 

Sell the core. No one's safe if we can get the buyer to overpay. Get picks and prospects. Restock the cupboard. 

 

Galchenyuk is three years younger than Nazem Kadri.  What was Kadri two years ago?  (that would still be 1 year older than Galchenyuk is today, but the same experience in the NHL). He was Nearly run out of town as a weak defensively, cancer in the dressing room, not producing forward. He missed a practice and was suspended by the team. The leafs had patience, hired a new coach to work with him, and look what they have now, a 30 goal 65 point centre who got Selke votes. 

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2 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Galchenyuk is three years younger than Nazem Kadri.  What was Kadri two years ago?  (that would still be 1 year older than Galchenyuk is today, but the same experience in the NHL). He was Nearly run out of town as a weak defensively, cancer in the dressing room, not producing forward. He missed a practice and was suspended by the team. The leafs had patience, hired a new coach to work with him, and look what they have now, a 30 goal 65 point centre who got Selke votes. 

Good point. Kadri is a great example of a successful reclamation.

 

Expectations are not the same for the two players however. 27 was drafted third overall to become the next Damphousse or Muller, not to become a "defensive" centre.

 

Expecations are way higher for Chuck. It's way harder to become a No 1 centre. I don't think he can do it. He'd at least shown more promise by now.

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2 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Or he could have acquired just one forward with skill as a deadline rental for a cheap price. 

 

Habs gave up... Sven Andrighetto, a 4th round pick, a 6th round pick, and got 1g 1a in 50 gp from 3 scrubs. 

 

anaheim gave up a conditional second rounder and got Patrick Eaves 12 goals, 5 assists, 17 points in 24 games for Anaheim. 
Florida gave up a third rounder and got 10 points in 20 games from Vanek
Boston gave up a 6th rounder and got Drew Stafford. 10 points in 24 games, 


He didn't have to gut this roster to add some offence. 

 

Thats fair game on Eaves and Stafford. Good additions.

 

Still, he didn't give up anything valuable and we did get value out of Benn and Ott. Just less than what we were hoping for.

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1 minute ago, zumpano21 said:

 

Thats fair game on Eaves and Stafford. Good additions.

 

Still, he didn't give up anything valuable and we did get value out of Benn and Ott. Just less than what we were hoping for.

Actually I think Benn and Ott are keepers, it is the other boneheads he picked up that I don't understand.

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4 hours ago, DON said:

McDavid is young centre and doing OK, but what does that have to do with Galchenyuk?

A team that's finishes 8th overall, is just a bit unlikely to 'sell the core', that is simple foolish as you know Montreal fans would riot if missed playoffs for couple years in a row...on purpose.

Turns out Galchneyuk is likely better off on the wing...for now at least and again I say that is fine by me.

A team that finished 8th but has reached the upper limit on age for its core. That means we're likely trending down. 

 

And I disagree about the riots. If we're to trade in for a group of dynamic young players with the right pedigree - the place would be packed every night with hope for the future.  The fan base is more intelligent and less angry than people readily admit.

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33 minutes ago, zumpano21 said:

Good point. Kadri is a great example of a successful reclamation.

 

Expectations are not the same for the two players however. 27 was drafted third overall to become the next Damphousse or Muller, not to become a "defensive" centre.

 

Expecations are way higher for Chuck. It's way harder to become a No 1 centre. I don't think he can do it. He'd at least shown more promise by now.

 

Kadri was not drafted 8th overall to be a defensive centre either.  He was the expected leafs saviour at centre for a long time (until last year when they got Matthews). 

 

And the point isn't turning Galchenyuk into a Selke winner. 

 

If you can get the 30 goal 65-70 point, defensively passable guy out of him (and consider he was at a 60 point pace this year over 82 games, and has already had a 30 goal 58 point season)... then he'd be what this team needs.  Chucky producing like a 30 g, 65-70 point guy + another 50 point C + Danault would be fine up the middle. 

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4 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Kadri was not drafted 8th overall to be a defensive centre either.  He was the expected leafs saviour at centre for a long time (until last year when they got Matthews). 

 

And the point isn't turning Galchenyuk into a Selke winner. 

 

If you can get the 30 goal 65-70 point, defensively passable guy out of him (and consider he was at a 60 point pace this year over 82 games, and has already had a 30 goal 58 point season)... then he'd be what this team needs.  Chucky producing like a 30 g, 65-70 point guy + another 50 point C + Danault would be fine up the middle. 

That's a good asset for sure. But who plays #1 C? This is a sore point for all of us but most importantly will be critical to a successful Cup run.

 

If played correctly, we can trade 27 or 67 or whoever for a chance at a real centre.

 

PITT, CHI, LA, BOS. They all had franchise centres.

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I've had my doubts about Bergevin ever since the Kassian and Semin ordeals. Whether or not it was correct to get rid of those players for basically nothing is irrelevant because they were simply Bergevin covering up his own mistakes either way.  The Subban trade does have its negative aspects but for me I felt as though it wasn't necessarily something that Bergevin had full control over and he got a great player in return. As a result, it wasn't like I had a continual dislike towards him but my skepticism did start a lot earlier than most. 

 

With all that in place, I constantly see remarks about Bergevin not addressing our most glaring need(s). Sit in Bergevin's chair for a minute, Close your eyes. What is the most nagging comment you hear ringing in your head from the past decade when it comes to our team and our identity?

 

Open your eyes. 

 

Half of you (who aren't actually Bergevin) will hear cries for that scoring top line center. The other half (who also aren't Bergevin) will hear cries about the Habs being too small and needing to get bigger. We're constantly "too soft" and get run over physically by other teams.  

 

This year saw the Habs lose the most physical round 1 series and the Habs themselves played a huge part of that physicality despite possessing the puck quite a bit throughout the series. Bergevin transformed this team into a more physical team this year... and it didn't work. What's the point in all of that? Bergevin did actually address one of our most glaring needs, it simply did not work out. What people who criticize Bergevin fail to assess is that not every move works out. That's not a defense of Bergevin, because the better GMs will have more successful moves over their lifespan, but it's not true to say that he wasn't actively trying to correct our most glaring needs. If Bergevin had a shot at Malkin or Toews, I'm sure he'd be all over it. Since that wasn't possible? Let's address our other need, which is to get a little bigger (no more smurf talk).  Some will argue that speed is better in today's NHL, and I may agree with that as I missed our speed up front against the Rangers, but it doesn't change the fact that we've been criticized for being too small for an era. 

 

Bergevin could have acquired Eaves. He could have acquired Vrbata. He could have acquired Drew Stafford. But when those players didn't work out within our system, how would people have felt? They would have felt the same way and said that Bergevin should have acquired player X instead. There's not a single player that was acquired at the deadline with decent stats who would have produced the same way on the Habs. Eaves on Anaheim is a great fit and Stafford doesn't impress me on Boston. 

 

Half of us are pissed that Bergevin didn't do more at the deadline and the other half keep saying that there wasn't anything on the market this season. My personal opinion is that his moves sucked overall, but there really wasn't anything interesting on the market and he was one of the more active GMs in the league at the deadline. He seemingly really was trying to help the team. He's just not as good at the walk. 

 

When it comes to our centers and how Bergevin has failed to address this need, I think this is the first moment where we can officially start to have questions about Galchenyuk and his overall potential. Even then, I wouldn't be surprised for him to be able to produce like a first line center as soon as next year. He had an injury riddled season and it's always extremely unfair to judge a player based on a season like that. Next, we throw out comments about Plekanec regressing into a bottom sixer like it was fully and obviously expected but again, the evidence of its profound impact on the forward corps as a whole is only relatively recent. Bergevin did add Radulov (only luckily :rolleyes:) but then had a player like Plekanec regress into a bottom sixer. At the moment, we still need two more top 6 players to be a real, legitimate threat to win a Stanley Cup. Bergevin could have added two top 6 players last summer and we'd still be in a hole. Overall, the expectations are simply a bit unrealistic. He would have had to have added 3 top 6 players to have really done a great job. 

 

As for my opinion? I'm not really sure. I definitely think Bergevin has made mistakes along the way which is unacceptable and although there's been too much "new" within the organization recently, I'd be fine with him getting fired. I'm just not convinced that the constant issues people bring up about him are genuinely rational. 

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I really think that the team peaked in 2013-2014 and 2014-2015 and Bergevin failed to recognize it. Not being snide, but he thought he was building a Chicago and lost sight of all that wasn't three inches in front of his nose. The goal of building a contender to compete year after year was lofty and highly suspect. Only the Penguins, the Hawks, and the Capitals (to an extent) have hung on at that level since the salary cap.  And they have the best players in the game, which is why they've been able to shuffle around depth pieces to rejig contenders through multiple iterations. If you have Toews, Kane, and Keith or Sid, Malkin, and Letang, a couple of early exits can be tolerated to find the right mix. 

 

They should have gone for it in 2014-2015. They really had the team to make some serious noise and Bergevin's acquisition was Jeff Petry. Pathetic! He totally misread the situation and they went out much like they did this year-with a hermetic defense that wasn't hermetic enough to shut the other team out every game, which was pretty much the only way to the Cup that year and this year.

 

The biggest indictment of Bergevin is player development. In five years, his only draft picks that have made the team full-time are Galchenyuk and Lehkonen. What do they have in common? Neither developed in the organization. Young players consistently struggle to find roles, even the most talented ones.

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4 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

If I'm Chuck I am signing every offer sheet that comes my way.

 

So Montreal can match and you get stuck there?

 

If you really want out, best to refuse to sign anything and demand a trade

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Guest Stogey24
11 hours ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

I really think that the team peaked in 2013-2014 and 2014-2015 and Bergevin failed to recognize it. Not being snide, but he thought he was building a Chicago and lost sight of all that wasn't three inches in front of his nose. The goal of building a contender to compete year after year was lofty and highly suspect. Only the Penguins, the Hawks, and the Capitals (to an extent) have hung on at that level since the salary cap.  And they have the best players in the game, which is why they've been able to shuffle around depth pieces to rejig contenders through multiple iterations. If you have Toews, Kane, and Keith or Sid, Malkin, and Letang, a couple of early exits can be tolerated to find the right mix. 

 

They should have gone for it in 2014-2015. They really had the team to make some serious noise and Bergevin's acquisition was Jeff Petry. Pathetic! He totally misread the situation and they went out much like they did this year-with a hermetic defense that wasn't hermetic enough to shut the other team out every game, which was pretty much the only way to the Cup that year and this year.

 

The biggest indictment of Bergevin is player development. In five years, his only draft picks that have made the team full-time are Galchenyuk and Lehkonen. What do they have in common? Neither developed in the organization. Young players consistently struggle to find roles, even the most talented ones.

The team has no identity

 

Under Beregvin's tenure we went from small and speedy, to a goon squad, back to smallish, and now this year I'm not even sure what to consider this team. Putting a strategy together must be a nightmare for Julien. 

 

Beregvin has zero direction. Which is pretty scary considering we have one more year of price under a manageable contact.

 

I'm just waiting for what his excuse will be this offseason when he does nothing. Or does something completely irrelevant to team needs. 

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