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General Training Camp Thread


dlbalr
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I can understand why you'd feel safer with Barberio than Tinordi as the latter provides a lot of nerve wracking moments. I'd rather neither were in the lineup though. Some want to put Barberio ahead of Emelin but I'd be more comfortable with Emelin than either of those two.

I hope that this is the scenario:

1. Bergevin trades Gilbert( prospect or a pick). 2. Tinordi blossoms. 3. We are all happy with our GM...until his next decision

I fear this decision: Tinordi is waived; Tinordi is claimed; Tinordi blossoms in another organization that plays him at the NHL level; Habs fans lament his loss for a decade...or longer, most of us have veerrrry long memories for the ones that got away.

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I hope that this is the scenario:

1. Bergevin trades Gilbert( prospect or a pick). 2. Tinordi blossoms. 3. We are all happy with our GM...until his next decision

I fear this decision: Tinordi is waived; Tinordi is claimed; Tinordi blossoms in another organization that plays him at the NHL level; Habs fans lament his loss for a decade...or longer, most of us have veerrrry long memories for the ones that got away.

Like Raphael Diaz, Yannick Weber, Andre Benoit and Ryan O'Byrne?

The last time a guy who played third pairing and we let him go through waivers that became good was like Ron Hainsey. Mark Streit played top four and we never wanted to lose Beauchemin and got screwed. Who am I missing? What third pairing defenceman last burned us?

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Like Raphael Diaz, Yannick Weber, Andre Benoit and Ryan O'Byrne?

The last time a guy who played third pairing and we let him go through waivers that became good was like Ron Hainsey. Mark Streit played top four and we never wanted to lose Beauchemin and got screwed. Who am I missing? What third pairing defenceman last burned us?

Actually, I wasn't referring specifically to d-men who were lost. I was referring to the fact that many of us can recite GM mistakes for the last 20 plus years. However, Beauchemin is a good example. Gainey didn't think he would be claimed and he was... and it still gets mentioned after all these years I just hope we don't give up on Tinordi too soon and I am not, and will never be, a big fan of Gilbert.

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Similar to McCarron, I didn't like drafting a big strictly defensive d-man in 1st round, simply because he is huge sized kid. GMs and scouts simply get blinded by freakish size and start drooling at what they may become.

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I don't think we lose much by keeping Tinordi. He still has top 4 potential I think. People often forget that defensive defensemen (especially larger ones) take quite a bit longer to mature. Give him a chance to succeed this year. The ship has sailed for trading him at good value, so let's just ride it out with him.

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Similar to McCarron, I didn't like drafting a big strictly defensive d-man in 1st round, simply because he is huge sized kid. GMs and scouts simply get blinded by freakish size and start drooling at what they may become.

You mean like Chara?

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No...I saw Chara when he first entered the WHL and he is no comparable to Tinordi and Chara was taken where big lumbering guys should be, the 3rd round (or in the 2nd round like Lucic is fine).

So you bringing up Chara actually boosts my case that; could of taken a similar player to Tinordi (Stephen John's say) with the 2nd round pick they traded and still picked a skilled player in 1st round.

Just a pet peeve, but I still thought Tinordi would be a solid physical NHL d-man, but dosent seem to be turning out that way. But Tinordi is only 23/24 this year so maybe he will still sneak into some games and impress?

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I don't think we lose much by keeping Tinordi. He still has top 4 potential I think. People often forget that defensive defensemen (especially larger ones) take quite a bit longer to mature. Give him a chance to succeed this year. The ship has sailed for trading him at good value, so let's just ride it out with him.

I agree whole heartedly with this post... and I really think that is Bergevin's plan with him.

Injuries, and Gilbert's(and to some degree Emelin's) failure to play well, will give Tinordi opportunities throughout this season, to develop and learn at this level, what he needs to do to be an NHL player.

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Couldn't the question be De la Rose vs. Smith-Pelly? DSP has been placed on a lot of fifth lines and playing LW would be his off wing.

I think the difference is two fold.

1) i wouldnt leave the 20 year old in montreal to play less than 10 minutes a game or find himself in the press box. Let him play more in ahl. Its top 9 or ahl with a kid that young.

2) dlr can go down without waivers. Dsp can not.

Barberio is just 25. Hes pretty young and could continue to develop. Regardless hes better than tinordi right now. Has much more ability to move the puck and a highly doubt tinordi ever reaches that level of skating and passing.

Moving the puck is hugely important for dmen today. More than any other skill imo. Barberio has it. Tinordi doesnt.

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I think the difference is two fold.

1) i wouldnt leave the 20 year old in montreal to play less than 10 minutes a game or find himself in the press box. Let him play more in ahl. Its top 9 or ahl with a kid that young.

2) dlr can go down without waivers. Dsp can not.

Barberio is just 25. Hes pretty young and could continue to develop. Regardless hes better than tinordi right now. Has much more ability to move the puck and a highly doubt tinordi ever reaches that level of skating and passing.

Moving the puck is hugely important for dmen today. More than any other skill imo. Barberio has it. Tinordi doesnt.

Agreed. i would add this that maybe if SLY had got the bulldogs in the playoffs in the last three years, maybe the tin man may have developed enough MOJO by now. Secondly, if there is any notion to keep 8 defensemen, you could see somebody playing some wing.

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Have to believe MB is working hard on trades. After what DLR showed last season, he's an NHL-quality player. Losing Tinordi to waivers would be a mistake. Big defensemen take longer to mature - that's been a fairly consistent truism.

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Have to believe MB is working hard on trades. After what DLR showed last season, he's an NHL-quality player. Losing Tinordi to waivers would be a mistake. Big defensemen take longer to mature - that's been a fairly consistent truism.

The nature of the game has changed dramatically in the past few years. Presently the puck moving defenseman is the most sought after . I really don't have a good sense where guys like Tinordi fit into the modern pecking order. We will soon find out. I really don't want to see him on a division rival.

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Have to believe MB is working hard on trades.

I know that comment was more for the NHL team but I'll throw out a name I think could be dealt soon, Christian Thomas. The fact that he cleared waivers actually boosts his trade value (from zero to slightly more than that). A team that may think he still has some potential should be more interested now that he can go to the minors. It would be a very small return but he has fallen down the depth chart a fair bit where I think they'd be okay with just letting him have a chance elsewhere. And, it would free up a contract spot, something I believe they would like to before signing Fleischmann. (They don't have to do that but I think they'd like to.)

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Today's practice:

@JohnLuTSNMtl


#Habs lines:
Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gallagher
Eller-Galchenyuk-Semin
Fleischmann-DD-Weise
Flynn-Mitchell-Kassian
JDLR-Hudon/Andrighetto-DSP

#Habs practice D & G:
Markov - Subban
Emelin - Petry
Beaulieu - Gilbert
Tinordi - Pateryn
Barberio - Juulsen

Price
Tokarski
Condon
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I don't think we lose much by keeping Tinordi. He still has top 4 potential I think. People often forget that defensive defensemen (especially larger ones) take quite a bit longer to mature. Give him a chance to succeed this year. The ship has sailed for trading him at good value, so let's just ride it out with him.

But what does 'give him a chance to succeed' mean? Does it mean playing him over guys who have outperformed him in camp and bring more to the table day in and day out? Does it mean playing him even if he stinks, over and over? Does it mean keeping him on the team as a 'black ace' just because we don't want to lose him on waivers?

I get that he could still become a good player. I worry about it myself, just because huge defencemen often do take longer to develop, But at the same time I can't defend any of the three scenarios sketched above. First, ice time on champion-calibre teams should go to guys who earn it (e.g., Barberio has been praised for a good camp, surely he deserves it more?). Second, putting players in positions they can't handle is the opposite of setting them up to succeed, and it hurts the team nightly besides. Finally, the 'black ace' thing is not going to help his development at all.

The Habs are kind of in a no-win situation with Tinordi at this stage - and it's Tinordi's fault, not the Habs'.

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But what does 'give him a chance to succeed' mean? Does it mean playing him over guys who have outperformed him in camp and bring more to the table day in and day out? Does it mean playing him even if he stinks, over and over? Does it mean keeping him on the team as a 'black ace' just because we don't want to lose him on waivers?

I get that he could still become a good player. I worry about it myself, just because huge defencemen often do take longer to develop, But at the same time I can't defend any of the three scenarios sketched above. First, ice time on champion-calibre teams should go to guys who earn it (e.g., Barberio has been praised for a good camp, surely he deserves it more?). Second, putting players in positions they can't handle is the opposite of setting them up to succeed, and it hurts the team nightly besides. Finally, the 'black ace' thing is not going to help his development at all.

The Habs are kind of in a no-win situation with Tinordi at this stage - and it's Tinordi's fault, not the Habs'.

Mr Bergevin has always said " the players will decide the outcome". He means that what they accomplish on the ice is how it will play out. I really forking want Tinordi to be the next Big Bird, but if it ain't gonna happen then it ain't. This is a very good team with very few slots open. You have to be damn good to make it. He is close, but..... he ain't there. YET. He may never be. Who knows? I agree with CC this one is tough but when push comes to shove, you gotta go with what is best for the team.

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Barberio isn't exactly old and a finished product as a player either, he's got room to improve even more with more icetime at the NHL level. He's still learning in the NHL and is just 25.

Very true, and tat this point he is ahead of Tinordi by a long way.

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Keep in mind that this is only a good training camp for Barberio.

He hasn't been able to impress TB enough in about 100 games in the NHL to make his way in their top 6-7 either.

Keep that in mind... Don't put him on a pedestal too soon...

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Keep in mind that this is only a good training camp for Barberio.

He hasn't been able to impress TB enough in about 100 games in the NHL to make his way in their top 6-7 either.

Keep that in mind... Don't put him on a pedestal too soon...

There is no pedestal here, but he is ahead of Tinordi at this point. Mind you that is just my opinion

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Was more referring to all the buzz and hype around him in the medias.

Everyone talk about Barberio as a new revelation of some kind, a player good enough to justify trading other players just to make room for him.

(I'm 99% confident that this last sentence would not give me the grades to pass an English class these days in High School)

I find it very funny cuz I clearly remember Michel Bergeron on tv claiming that, after TWO GAMES, we should send Weber or Diaz down or trade them to make room for Frederic St-Denis !!!!!

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Was more referring to all the buzz and hype around him in the medias.

Everyone talk about Barberio as a new revelation of some kind, a player good enough to justify trading other players just to make room for him.

(I'm 99% confident that this last sentence would not give me the grades to pass an English class these days in High School)

I find it very funny cuz I clearly remember Michel Bergeron on tv claiming that, after TWO GAMES, we should send Weber or Diaz down or trade them to make room for Frederic St-Denis !!!!!

And we call him Le Genius 2

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