Commandant Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 I see what you mean. I don't disagree with this way of managing the team. Where I don't really agree is on what will bring this kind of tanking ( I mean not tanking 100% for multiple seasons). I believe that, doing so, we're more likely to remain a bubble team than becoming a true contender. We'd never get enough talent back from the draft picks we'd receive from buyers. These teams will give 20+ overall draft picks in return. Teams with top 5 draft picks will not give them for Plekanek, Markov, Eller, etc as they will miss the playoffs them too and keep them. No sure 1st line/top pair player will come from that. We could be lucky enough to fall on a few 2nd line guys that we could package for a true 1st line player, but nothing is less sure than that. Our only chance to finish low enough is to send Price to a surgery and him missing the entire season. Sure, step 1 is shut price down for the season and i agree no one is trading us top 5 picks. What we get is a bunch of picks in the 20s. or even second rounders. Max was 22nd overall, PK was a second rounder. its possible to get these guys, but i agree its not likely. You know what improves your chances though? Having more and more picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Sure, step 1 is shut price down for the season and i agree no one is trading us top 5 picks. What we get is a bunch of picks in the 20s. or even second rounders. Max was 22nd overall, PK was a second rounder. its possible to get these guys, but i agree its not likely. You know what improves your chances though? Having more and more picks. And this is why tanking for one season is not, IMHO, the way to go. Succesfully finding pearls in the draft by just having more and more picks in a given draft year is just pure luck. If you want to tank properly, you empty the team of all your 25+ years old players with value (yes, Price and Subban included) and start from scratch with more and more picks, yes, but also with top 5 picks for several years in a row. That ensure you a high % of chance of building a true contender. You trade your Plekanec and Eller at trade deadline creating a bidding war. You trade your Price, Pax and Subban during summer or at the draft to the teams with very high draft picks. Then, you finish dead last for several years and get more high draft picks. The goal is to bring together a bunch of players around the same age group that can all reach their ceilings and fit under the cap. Just like the Blackhawks or the Oilers (who didn't undestand that you have to start with high end Dmen and Goalies cuz they take longer to develop and then, top skilled forwards)) However, this is not the route I want the Habs to go. Because it's a losers route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 There's no shutting Carey Price down. He's the reigning Hart trophy winner. He isn't going to accept being told his season is over unless it's over. Dream about it all you want. You're better off finding a lead pipe and giving him a Harding whack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Bergevin will not throw in the towel. Whoever the Canadiens can get in the first round, you can forget about. Bergevin will trade Montreal's first rounder along with some solid young assets to make a run this year. Even if this team is 10 points out come deadline. I've never seen a Montreal team give up, although sometimes it's what's best for the team. Management is just as concerned about "the window" as the fans. Bottom line is that this team was built poorly. Our core players weren't in their primes 5 years ago, and management failed to bring in a supporting cast for them when they had the opportunity. Instead every year they thought it was "their year to win" and went for it instead of cleaning house and sacrificing a little then to have success now. Tanking is not in their DNA, nor is giving up. Same story, different year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 There's no shutting Carey Price down. He's the reigning Hart trophy winner. He isn't going to accept being told his season is over unless it's over. Dream about it all you want. You're better off finding a lead pipe and giving him a Harding whack. I know. And it is the reason why I don't want the team to tank. Tanking with Price = sure failure. Failure to score goals because you dealt your NHL players AND failure to finish low enough and get good picks cuz Price will probably be able to steal many games. This has Maple Leafs draft position written all over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 We don't tank. And there is no longer much point to it. The way the draft is you aren't guaranteed anything. Look at Buffalo they thought they would get McDavid. They got Eichel which is pretty damn good anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 We don't tank. And there is no longer much point to it. The way the draft is you aren't guaranteed anything. Look at Buffalo they thought they would get McDavid. They got Eichel which is pretty damn good anyways. The draft lottery rules have changed this year too. You can finish last and technically draft fourth now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 The draft lottery rules have changed this year too. You can finish last and technically draft fourth now. My point exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 The draft lottery rules have changed this year too. You can finish last and technically draft fourth now. So we'd get one of Pulijarvi, Laine, and Tkachuk. I'm ok with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Yes please, The habs will get Mathews, the league owes them one on the John Scott trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbhatt Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Are any of you located in Sens territory like I am? Amazing how many of their fans couldn't wait to come up to me to talk today...they are loving this. I've had many "I told you so!" moments during the tail end of this slide, with regards to their insistence that the Habs have always been a bad team being carried by Price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 4 wins in our next 21 games takes us to top 4. 8 wins the rest of the season takes us to #1 Our slide has been based on bad luck as much as bad play. I find it doubtful that we'd manage to continue so poorly the rest of the way out. And my point stands that barring the #1 pick, we won't get someone who can come in and help our core, which is (supposedly) primed to win now. Giving up on this season doesn't help us very much long term. A much more likely scenario is that our results start to align with our play on the ice and we battle for a playoff spot from here on out. In that case, with a healthy Price, we can give anyone hell in the playoffs. If Price is shut down for the year, however, I'm all for tanking this season and maximizing our draft position. Still doubt we'd crack the top 8, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Our slide has been based on bad luck as much as bad play. I find it doubtful that we'd manage to continue so poorly the rest of the way out. And my point stands that barring the #1 pick, we won't get someone who can come in and help our core, which is (supposedly) primed to win now. Giving up on this season doesn't help us very much long term. A much more likely scenario is that our results start to align with our play on the ice and we battle for a playoff spot from here on out. In that case, with a healthy Price, we can give anyone hell in the playoffs. If Price is shut down for the year, however, I'm all for tanking this season and maximizing our draft position. Still doubt we'd crack the top 8, though. You are likely right, I'm just pissed off as hell over the slide continuing with no end in sight and a loss to Boston. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyhasbeen Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Tanking is for losers. No respect for that kind of management. ###### the Caps, the Pens, the Hawks, Islanders and Edmonton. All of them, no respect. Props to the Bruins, Detroit, Habs and other franchises who go down fighting. Close this thread already. 100% !! Well said. We are not about to start a 5 year rebuild again. I understand everybody's frustrations but unless we trade away the 5 you said we need to keep we end up being out of the lottery pick so be a waste of time. This is the same team minus Semin sitting in the stands that was in first and you all thought was bound for glory. Fickle bunch for sure. I am also beside myself but I am not thinking foolishly about it yet. I am on the page of "If a quality coach was available the time for a move may be now" I just can't think who that would be though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I think a lot of people have different concepts of what tanking actually is just by their statements on here. The original concept was that you deliberately lost games to achieve preferred draft status ex. #1 pick. The NHL has tweaked the rules making that quest pointless. I don't think anyone attempts to lose games, because all it is going to do is get you fired; you are not achieving any advantage. I do believe that approaching trade deadline, using a Kenny Rogers theme,"you got to know when to hold them and when to fold them" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I think a lot of people have different concepts of what tanking actually is just by their statements on here. The original concept was that you deliberately lost games to achieve preferred draft status ex. #1 pick. The NHL has tweaked the rules making that quest pointless. I don't think anyone attempts to lose games, because all it is going to do is get you fired; you are not achieving any advantage. I do believe that approaching trade deadline, using a Kenny Rogers theme,"you got to know when to hold them and when to fold them" Yeah, you have a good point about knowing when to just give in to the circumstances, and when to try to fix it. The year we drafted Galchenyuk, we lost so many 1 goal games, and had injuries and a coaching fiasco, that management knew it was pointless to try and salvage the season, early on, so the best lineup and best coaching change were put off until the next season, as the end began to show long before the book of that season was read. If Price doesn't come back until after mid Feb., then this season is lost... so many teams getting ahead of the Habs, and there seems to be no end in sight to the losing without Price. We could call it semi-tank, Bergevin does a re-grouping for next year, and address the line up issues as best he can at the deadline, draft day, and through free agency, and bang, rebuild done. This team doesn't need much, mainly help on the wing that can score... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Yeah, you have a good point about knowing when to just give in to the circumstances, and when to try to fix it. The year we drafted Galchenyuk, we lost so many 1 goal games, and had injuries and a coaching fiasco, that management knew it was pointless to try and salvage the season, early on, so the best lineup and best coaching change were put off until the next season, as the end began to show long before the book of that season was read. If Price doesn't come back until after mid Feb., then this season is lost... so many teams getting ahead of the Habs, and there seems to be no end in sight to the losing without Price. We could call it semi-tank, Bergevin does a re-grouping for next year, and address the line up issues as best he can at the deadline, draft day, and through free agency, and bang, rebuild done. This team doesn't need much, mainly help on the wing that can score... My biggest complaint about strategies this time of year, is that teams don't read the tea leaves and accurately assess where they really are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Yeah, you have a good point about knowing when to just give in to the circumstances, and when to try to fix it. The year we drafted Galchenyuk, we lost so many 1 goal games, and had injuries and a coaching fiasco, that management knew it was pointless to try and salvage the season, early on, so the best lineup and best coaching change were put off until the next season, as the end began to show long before the book of that season was read. If Price doesn't come back until after mid Feb., then this season is lost... so many teams getting ahead of the Habs, and there seems to be no end in sight to the losing without Price. We could call it semi-tank, Bergevin does a re-grouping for next year, and address the line up issues as best he can at the deadline, draft day, and through free agency, and bang, rebuild done. This team doesn't need much, mainly help on the wing that can score... I was thinking exactly the same thing. This team does not need a complete strip-and-rebuild job - that'd be crazy. It needs what you just described, targeted, significant moves to shore up obvious problem areas. You know, it would not surprise me at all if Bergevin, while disappointed with these results, is not ripping his hair out over them. He may be seeing this as the acid test of what he's got on this team, and may be coolly using this crisis to really identify which guys need to go and where the true holes are. E.g., Pleks, DD, and Markov are all likely to be assessed differently on the basis of this season. Otherwise put, he wanted to know if he had a true contender. Now he knows the answer, and can proceed on that basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 After these two L's to the BJ's, tank it up! Looking at the standings I doubt we could do better than the 8th overall pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 We still could win 20 out of 32 which would put us right in the hunt. But I doubt it without Carey riding in on a white horse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 What you guys want is the Habs to be sellers at trade deadline. Not to start a tanking operation. I agree. Sell : Markov or Emelin - Eller - one or both of Plek/DD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 What you guys want is the Habs to be sellers at trade deadline. Not to start a tanking operation. I agree. Sell : Markov or Emelin - Eller - one or both of Plek/DD. Good point. Maybe we should start asking: OK, what do you think we can get for those players? Pleks - quality prospect Markov - ? Two second rounders? A 1st from a contender? Eller - 3rd rounder DD - 2nd rounder Emelin - 2nd rounder Or am I way off? (And no, I'm not saying dump all those guys). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Way off on DD, he has proved worthless in the playoffs and no contender wants that. Emelin and Eller I think are bad contracts for bad contracts and hope you win the trade. Pleks and Markov have good value still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 27, 2016 Author Share Posted January 27, 2016 Good point. Maybe we should start asking: OK, what do you think we can get for those players? Pleks - quality prospect Markov - ? Two second rounders? A 1st from a contender? Eller - 3rd rounder DD - 2nd rounder Emelin - 2nd rounder Or am I way off? (And no, I'm not saying dump all those guys). I think the question to ask is who is needed here next season and who is not.... Dump anyone who is not needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Good point. Maybe we should start asking: OK, what do you think we can get for those players? Pleks - quality prospect Markov - ? Two second rounders? A 1st from a contender? Eller - 3rd rounder DD - 2nd rounder Emelin - 2nd rounder Or am I way off? (And no, I'm not saying dump all those guys). How much money beyond this season you're willing to take back (either via salary retention or taking a player or two signed beyond this season) will have a big impact on the 'future asset' you're getting for any of these players. With there already being talk of a stagnant or even lower cap, I suspect teams will be more gun shy than usual on taking contracts beyond this season unless they're moving some salary back the other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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