Neech Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Low hockey IQ. Bad decision-making. Brainfarts and gaffes. Doesn't seem to take a cerebral approach. This has nothing to do with how he is away from the rink, in the room, in interviews or in the media, or playing a game of scrabble at home. Purely on the ice. PK's dumb. Not to say he isn't an excellent player, because he IS! Most nights he is one of or among the most dominant players out there. But his athletic gifts were not paired with equal resources between the ears. On one end of the spectrum we have guys like Lidstrom, Keith, even our aging Markov, who throughout his career has made the most of his rather limited physical abilities. Towards the other end we have PK, and this is a problem, because I can't think of a dumb player leading his team to a Cup. I'll ramp back the hyperbole a bit at this point, because I don't think he's horribly dumb, like the worst in the league or even on the team. He's mostly reliable. Just that it matters a lot more because he's by far our best player and he's a defender to boot. This could be a separate thread, but maybe he's naturally a winger - an excellent passer and shooter, a powerful skater and a strong frame; perhaps these skills would be best used closer to goal. But I digress. His position as a D makes his mental gaffes more frequent and more costly. Ovechkin is a player who is dominant physically but has questionable hockey sense when his team doesn't have the puck - but he makes up for it with dozens of goals, and he's sheltered on the wing. And he hasn't gone three rounds deep yet. Is PK dumb? Can a team led by a dumb player win a Cup, especially if he plays defense? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Considering his advanced stats have him as one of the best DEFENSIVE DEFENCEMEN in the entire NHL, I disagree that he is dumb, and I disagree that he should be moved off of defence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 You can't just say 'Advanced stats. Case closed'. The eye test matters too. At the very least advanced stats have failed this team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 My eye test is quite a bit different than yours if you think PK is a dumb hockey player and a liability defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 Maybe it's not dumb so much as not smart. Pleks is a smart player. So is Markov. Gallagher I'd put as smarter than Pacioretty. PK I'd put below them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Again my eye test disagrees with you. What I see from PK right now is a guy who is doing everything he can to get the team out of the slump. Maybe he's trying a bit too hard in recent weeks and that has him taking extra chances, but I don't see that as being dumb, in fact I see it as quite the opposite. PK has 14 points in the last 14 games, the Habs have scored 28 goals in those games. Complaining about PK right now is the thing that seems to be dumb to me. When the team was going well and scoring lots, and PK didn't need to put it all on his back he played smart defensive hockey. I don't think it has anything to do with what he's capable of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 I actually thought of this long before our slump. I agree that PK's our best guy on the ice, and he's the only one with the athletic gifts to be a force out there through sheer will-power. There are a handful of attributes that make a good hockey player - skating, physical toughness, mental toughness, skill, etc and hockey IQ is one of them. I believe PK is a big positive in all of those except hockey IQ. Maybe he's not a net negative, but it's just not his strength. I realize there may be a tendency to over-criticize him simply because he's relied upon so much, but I just see him making dumb plays too often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l<OV4L3V Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 PK has 14 goals in the last 14 games, the Habs have scored 28 goals in those games. I assume you mean assists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 I think PK is actually very intelligent, on and off the ice. Most of his "gaffes" are because he is trying to do too much, and cover too many people his team mates don't pick up. Best player on the team. This year showing beyond a doubt that he is a stellar defenseman at both ends of the ice and will be a contender for the Norris until he is old and gray. That is the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 I think that Subban is the one player during this whole slump that's been beyond reproach. He does make some gaffes like any other defenseman, but I wouldn't slight him for not being perfect. I think the issue is his ice time. PK plays a high intensity game, and he's playing as many minutes as someone like Ryan Suter, who has a different approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 This is the DUMBEST thread I've ever seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 I assume you mean assists 14 points which was exactly what i wrote looking back on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 14 points which was exactly what i wrote looking back on that. Actually, it was goals, I just edited it for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Actually, it was goals, I just edited it for you. thanks... it was late Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l<OV4L3V Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Actually, it was goals, I just edited it for you. LOL I was just about to reply that the edit button is a helluva thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 I love how a negative thread about Subban gets a +1, but if anyone even mentioned something like this about baby boy Plekanec, there would be hell to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 I love how a negative thread about Subban gets a +1, but if anyone even mentioned something like this about baby boy Plekanec, there would be hell to pay.Only complaint I have about Plekanec is his incapacity to perform a one-timer shot on a 2 on 1. That being said, there goes the +1 about PK being dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Beaulieu with wide open empty net, misses net and hits goalie who is to the side of net...basically sums up Habs of past couple months. (You could see Galchenyuk licking his chops when he saw Nate the Great wide the F open in front of net, got the puck and set him up perfect for gift wrapped goal.) Not sure Subban is lacking hockey IQ, but his zero effort (give a F meter) backchecking and over handling of puck is irritating. But, on a crap roster like this he is doing his part offensively for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Pk Subban is a charismatic franchise defenceman. Easily the single best position player on this team in every facet of the game and one of the very best players in hockey. If he's not a superstar. he's very close. And he will go down as one of the great Montreal Canadiens defenceman. He makes mistakes. So does ANY player who is creative, dynamic, and willing to take risks in order to make things happen. That's what it means to have a star player. Larry Robinson made mistakes too. Perhaps Montreal fans have forgotten this, since we haven't had a player of PK's calibre since Guy Lafleur. If you ask me, the weakness in PK's game is his first stride. By the second stride, he is nearly unstoppable, but that first stride is choppy and often raises alarm when it looks like he's not going to be able to pull away from a checker or get out of a jam. I think that if his first stride were not so dodgy, this myth of him as a 'high risk defender' would never have been started in the first place. I never found him especially high-risk, not even when he was a rookie, because I noticed right away that he got himself out of jams about 99% of the time. His rep has been a victim of a ridiculously risk-averse coaching culture. Of all the things we could be posting and arguing about, PK Subban is LAST. We are lucky to have one of the most exciting and effective players in hockey, and we get to watch him, hopefully, for the next decade. Enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 If you ask me, the weakness in PK's game is his first stride. By the second stride, he is nearly unstoppable, but that first stride is choppy and often raises alarm when it looks like he's not going to be able to pull away from a checker or get out of a jam. I think that if his first stride were not so dodgy, this myth of him as a 'high risk defender' would never have been started in the first place. I never found him especially high-risk, not even when he was a rookie, because I noticed right away that he got himself out of jams about 99% of the time. His rep has been a victim of a ridiculously risk-averse coaching culture. This speaks to a lack of awareness on the ice. Instead of making a simple play he complicates things by trying to skate away with the puck. We see him do this all the time in the defensive zone, and it's a high risk/low reward play. Most importantly, this type of game does not age well. He'll lose a stride around 30, and won't be able to get away with it as much. Maybe he'll be able to adjust, but it would be better if he was making a smart play all along. And let's not forget that Babcock was another coach who didn't trust PK to be reliable out there. Look, I get the gripe that he has been our best player this year and he's the least of our problems, but this is a flaw I've seen in him BEFORE the slump. Before this season. I don't think smarts are a strong point for him, and I think that is a key point for your very best players in the 3rd and 4th round of the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Babcock is not infalliable.... and clearly deciding that Dan Hamhuis was a better option than PK Subban was a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Why do you guess it was a mistake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbhatt Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 He makes an occasional boneheaded decision, but he's our best player damn near every night. PK is also the guy who is trying his hardest every night...long after most of his teammates have slumped their shoulders, and are going through the motions while having a self-pity party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 The fact that he was behind a never won anything loser like Bouwmeester was a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Again my eye test disagrees with you. What I see from PK right now is a guy who is doing everything he can to get the team out of the slump. Maybe he's trying a bit too hard in recent weeks and that has him taking extra chances, but I don't see that as being dumb, in fact I see it as quite the opposite. PK has 14 points in the last 14 games, the Habs have scored 28 goals in those games. Complaining about PK right now is the thing that seems to be dumb to me. When the team was going well and scoring lots, and PK didn't need to put it all on his back he played smart defensive hockey. I don't think it has anything to do with what he's capable of. I agree with Commandant on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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