Guest Stogey24 Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 4 minutes ago, illWill said: So the 4th line scoring a bunch is not sustainable but Plekanec and Desharnais not scoring is? You serious or? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Max and Plek are slumping. Therrien didn't help matters by removing Plekanec from the powerplay in favour of Desharnais. DD has been such a crutch for this club. It's none of his fault. He gives it his all for the Habs. But if they got rid of him two seasons ago maybe they would have actually addressed the middle instead of constantly fiddling with Galchenyuk. Bergevin's legacy will include his decision to keep DD on the club for five years instead of addressing the centre position with some actual insight. Therrien doesn't have a legacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Yes, Plex and DD not scoring is entirely sustainable. Max and Gally not scoring is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Within the "all in" description some of us seem to think, maybe Bergevin actually has the brains to add something significant, and thinking we are not even close to being a contender is a bit over dramatic, since we are in 1st overall, just sayin' I am not in the chicken little camp about the problems we don't have outweighing the success we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 11 minutes ago, KoRP said: Within the "all in" description some of us seem to think, maybe Bergevin actually has the brains to add something significant, and thinking we are not even close to being a contender is a bit over dramatic, since we are in 1st overall, just sayin' I am not in the chicken little camp about the problems we don't have outweighing the success we have. Okay, I really want you to look at this as objective as possible. October W: 8 L: 0 OT: 1 PTS: 17 (1st) GF: 31 (4th) GA: 13 (1st) PP: 21.9% (13th) PK: 88.6% (4th) November W: 8 L: 5 OT: 1 PTS: 17 (11th) GF: 37 (14th) GA: 36 (18th) PP: 21.1% (7th) PK: 78.8% (25th) Let me also add that 14 of the Habs 23 games have been at home (12-1-1 record, best in the NHL) while the remaining 9 were on the road (4-4-1, 14th) which is a pretty big gap between the two. It ain't like the Habs will play every playoff game at home. Montreal and Ottawa both sit at the top of the Atlantic having played less road games than the other teams in their division. I hate to bring up last year, but on December 1st of last year, Montreal was 1st in the league with 39 points in 25 games. Kinda like this year's 34 in 23. Can you at least see why some would be concerned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 17 minutes ago, KoRP said: Within the "all in" description some of us seem to think, maybe Bergevin actually has the brains to add something significant, and thinking we are not even close to being a contender is a bit over dramatic, since we are in 1st overall, just sayin' I am not in the chicken little camp about the problems we don't have outweighing the success we have. People want a perfect team with no holes. Such a team doesn't exist in the salary cap era. Pittsburgh's defense was shit. Chicago's 3 cup wins had Dave Bolland, a washed up Brad Richards, and Michal Handzus as their #2 centres depending on the year. Los Angeles never had enough scoring depth. Boston's PP didn't work and defence had 2 guys and the rest shit. Those are our cup champs since 2010. Every single one had a major flaw. But the thing is there are no perfect teams anymore. The 1976-77 Montreal Canadiens; or the 1983-84 Oilers do not exist in the era of free agency. Add in a salary cap on top of that and its even worse. So yes the Habs roster, like 29 other teams, has flaws. The question will be if its strengths are enough to overcome those flaws and win despite them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 2 hours ago, Stogey24 said: You serious or? Only if you think Plekanec will finish the season with the 4 goals he is on pace for 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 49 minutes ago, Commandant said: People want a perfect team with no holes. Such a team doesn't exist in the salary cap era. Pittsburgh's defense was shit. Chicago's 3 cup wins had Dave Bolland, a washed up Brad Richards, and Michal Handzus as their #2 centres depending on the year. Los Angeles never had enough scoring depth. Boston's PP didn't work and defence had 2 guys and the rest shit. Those are our cup champs since 2010. Every single one had a major flaw. But the thing is there are no perfect teams anymore. The 1976-77 Montreal Canadiens; or the 1983-84 Oilers do not exist in the era of free agency. Add in a salary cap on top of that and its even worse. So yes the Habs roster, like 29 other teams, has flaws. The question will be if its strengths are enough to overcome those flaws and win despite them. Excellent and logical post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 38 minutes ago, Commandant said: People want a perfect team with no holes. I think they want a team that has done everything its power to win a Stanley Cup. - Chicago took advantage of the salary cap to get players on good deals that would hurt them in later years but give them space to win a Cup in their prime. They also stacked their offence and defence so they wouldn't have to worry so much about perfect goaltending (Niemi was good enough, Crawford is pretty good). 3rd in GF in 2010, 2nd in GF in 2013, 18th in GF in 2015 (which they turned around in the playoffs) - Los Angeles added big name scorers when their depth was questioned and some of the players they expected to rely on began to turn unreliable. They also got lucky in making the playoffs once due to the loser point. They are also the poster childs of Fenwick and building a team that wins in the playoffs over a team that wins in the regular season (4th best GF/GP in the past five playoff seasons) - Boston stacked the deck at forward (Bergeron, Krejci, Horton, Lucic, Marchand, Ryder, Recchi) and in goal (Thomas/Rask) so that they could have weak defence (Kaberle sucked but it's forgotten that he tied for points for Bruins D in the playoffs) and still compete. Top 5 in goals for the season they won. - Pittsburgh was 4th in wins/points, third in GF, 6th in GA. They also added Phil Kessel when Montreal added Alex Semin. Pittsburgh is 7th in GF this November. Their Goals Against sucks because of Fleury. Seriously. Murray has a .929 in November. Fleury has a .889. That's not the defence. The only reason Pittsburgh kept being written off as a Cup contender since their last Cup was injuries and Marc-Andre Fleury being a terrible starter. Remember the year Vokoun basically took his job in the playoffs? Murray emerging is why their defence doesn't have to be great. They will once again be a Cup contender and are far more ready to make a run for the Cup than Montreal. I don't blame Bergevin at all for the scoring droughts of Pacioretty, Plekanec, and Gallagher. Nothing he can do about that. But we're in year five of David Desharnais being either a top six centre or a top nine centre and the best Bergevin can say is, "Oh, I tried to trade him last year". This is still the club that had Galchenyuk playing right wing for the first time in his career last season. Montreal's greatest problems lie down the middle and in coaching and it has since Bergevin took over (he also keeps finding a temporary RW instead of a permanent solution, but Radulov is good enough for me to be quiet there right now. If he walks in the summer because Bergevin wouldn't risk a two year deal for him, yeah.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 46 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said: I think they want a team that has done everything its power to win a Stanley Cup. - Chicago took advantage of the salary cap to get players on good deals that would hurt them in later years but give them space to win a Cup in their prime. They also stacked their offence and defence so they wouldn't have to worry so much about perfect goaltending (Niemi was good enough, Crawford is pretty good). 3rd in GF in 2010, 2nd in GF in 2013, 18th in GF in 2015 (which they turned around in the playoffs) - Los Angeles added big name scorers when their depth was questioned and some of the players they expected to rely on began to turn unreliable. They also got lucky in making the playoffs once due to the loser point. They are also the poster childs of Fenwick and building a team that wins in the playoffs over a team that wins in the regular season (4th best GF/GP in the past five playoff seasons) - Boston stacked the deck at forward (Bergeron, Krejci, Horton, Lucic, Marchand, Ryder, Recchi) and in goal (Thomas/Rask) so that they could have weak defence (Kaberle sucked but it's forgotten that he tied for points for Bruins D in the playoffs) and still compete. Top 5 in goals for the season they won. - Pittsburgh was 4th in wins/points, third in GF, 6th in GA. They also added Phil Kessel when Montreal added Alex Semin. Pittsburgh is 7th in GF this November. Their Goals Against sucks because of Fleury. Seriously. Murray has a .929 in November. Fleury has a .889. That's not the defence. The only reason Pittsburgh kept being written off as a Cup contender since their last Cup was injuries and Marc-Andre Fleury being a terrible starter. Remember the year Vokoun basically took his job in the playoffs? Murray emerging is why their defence doesn't have to be great. They will once again be a Cup contender and are far more ready to make a run for the Cup than Montreal. I don't blame Bergevin at all for the scoring droughts of Pacioretty, Plekanec, and Gallagher. Nothing he can do about that. But we're in year five of David Desharnais being either a top six centre or a top nine centre and the best Bergevin can say is, "Oh, I tried to trade him last year". This is still the club that had Galchenyuk playing right wing for the first time in his career last season. Montreal's greatest problems lie down the middle and in coaching and it has since Bergevin took over (he also keeps finding a temporary RW instead of a permanent solution, but Radulov is good enough for me to be quiet there right now. If he walks in the summer because Bergevin wouldn't risk a two year deal for him, yeah.) Yes all those teams had strengths. It doesn't change the fact that LA has consistently been one of the lowest scoring teams in hockey, even with their acquisitions. They are consistently near the bottom in goals for. It doesn't change the fact that Pittsburgh had a defence with Kris Letang as the only real piece that fit his role (seriously the rest of the D was Trevor Daley, Olli Maatta, Brian Dumolin, Ben Lovejoy, Justin Schultz). Thats a bad defence. It doesn't change the fact that Chicago's #2 centre in their cup years put up the following stat lines. 2010 Dave Bolland, 16 points in 39 games regular season 2013 Michal Handzus 0 goals 12 points in 27 regular season games. 2015 Brad Richards 37 points in 76 regular season games. 2nd Line Centre was a major hole on those three Blackhawks teams. Thats a fact. All of those teams had strengths, and they also got a bit of luck... Bickell going on an unsustainable playoff scoring tear. Bolland putting up 8 goals and 16 points in 22 playoff games the first year. Tim Thomas playing otherworldly. Jonathan Quick getting super hot. A rookie goalie coming in and shining for the Penguins. Thats what any team needs to win the cup. A good core. Some strengths, and some guys getting hot at just the right time and helping you win. 30 teams, 16 playoff teams, 1 winner. It takes skill and a little bit of luck in this cap era. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Well, let's look at it another way. As I remarked at the start of this thread, the Habs - while respected as a good team - are not generally regarded by 'experts' and media commentators as in the front-rank of contenders. Now they may well be just plain wrong. But it's worth asking why there seems to be a near-consensus on this. If the Habs really are 'just as good' as teams like Chicago, St Louis, NYR, TB, Pitts, and WASH, how come nobody other than some Habs fans see it? I think a lot of it has to do with (1) the fact that our only legitimate top-6 C is a 24-year-old just rounding into form - C is generally regarded as a key position in a playoff drive; and I don't believe for one second that Pleks or DD are suddenly going to go on Bolland-like tears in the playoffs ; (2) that the Habs, despite Price, often look unconvincing in their own end; and (3) this generation of Habs has never gone past the semi-finals, and its one semi-final appearance was unimpressive. The Habs also don't play what they like to call a 'heavy' game, and lack the superstar firepower needed to compensate. This may be a mix of prejudices and defensible analysis. But I think this is really what Habs fans want to see: their team being widely rated as among the league's very best, a bona-fide front-rank contender, a team that everybody fears - not just a team with a legit chance to make the finals (and probably then lose to some team that is either 'heavier' or faster and more skilled than we are) if everything goes just so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 4 of the last 7 cup champs..... heck if we go back to 2008 6 of the last 9 cup champs... don't play a heavy game. Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago... none of them are heavies. As for who the media picks as cup champ material. No one was on the 2012 Kings. Last year most had written off the Penguins. Etc... etc... not sure what they think is what we should base our assumptions on. this is a team that has had very good regular seasons, has gone to the conference finals in 2014, played a very close series with tampa in 2015, and has the best goalie in hockey behind them. They are a contender. There are weaknesses to address, sure. Here is the thing, the NHL is a league with so much parity, there is no team in the league that if we matched the Habs against them, we would have no chance of winning a 7 game series. This team Could (not saying they will, but they could) beat any team in the NHL in a 4 of 7. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 22 minutes ago, Commandant said: 4 of the last 7 cup champs..... heck if we go back to 2008 6 of the last 9 cup champs... don't play a heavy game. Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago... none of them are heavies. Good post, but as far as this goes, the Habs simply do not have the elite firepower that those three teams had, especially the latter two. As I said, the idea seems to be that if you don't play a 'heavy' game, then you'd better have some Crosbys, Kanes, Malkins, etc., to throw out there if you want to win the Cup. Now this may be wrong. For a long time, I believed the Habs could overcome their 'tweener'-ness by overwhelming teams with wave after wave of fast, offensively productive lines - the whole 'three line team' concept, backed by a good D-corps and a superstar goalie. In other words, I thought we represented an alternative model to either the Heavy Team or the Superstar Team paradigms. But without a decent 2nd-line C, the 'roll three equal lines' vision doesn't really work. And the team as a whole doesn't seem to be as fast as it used to be, either. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to thunder from the hilltops that this team can't win. I'm just having trouble seeing it, at this particular juncture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Yes those teams had Kane, or Crosby etc.... but they didn't have a superstar like Carey Price. No one player can effect a game more than he can. A team with Carey Price, a legit #1 defenceman, a legit #1 C, and at least 3 wingers who can all be considered first liners, has the core to contend. The team can be improved, of course, but the team as it stands could beat anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 1 hour ago, Commandant said: Thats what any team needs to win the cup. A good core. Some strengths, and some guys getting hot at just the right time and helping you win. 30 teams, 16 playoff teams, 1 winner. It takes skill and a little bit of luck in this cap era. Absolutely takes luck. Something Montreal has had in the past. Montreal has had Lars Eller and Rene Bourque playing like first liners. They had Brian Flynn and Torrey Mitchell contributing more than some top six players last playoffs. They even got luck from Dustin Tokarski who helped them get to six games with New York. All examples of luck that Montreal got. Montreal has also dealt with bad bounces like Price getting hurt and the team having zero shot luck against Ben Bishop. Montreal has Carey Price, but let's face the painful truth no Habs fan wants to admit: Carey's save percentage drops in the playoffs. Only in 10-11 did he have a better save percentage than in the regular season (I suspect this is because he carries the team for most of the regular season). Meaning the team in front of him has to be better than they were in the regular season for Montreal to go far. And yes, it's common for most players numbers to drop. But Sidney Crosby has Evgeni Malkin. Patrick Kane has Duncan Keith. Anze Kopitar has Drew Doughty. Are you ready for Price to be a .920 goalie in the playoffs and expect Shea Weber to pick up the slack? That's the big question. Can this Montreal Canadiens team play better in front of Carey Price in the playoffs than the regular season? If the answer is no, or maybe, Marc Bergevin needs to add. How much he needs to add is the difference between "not that much" and "not this year" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 So again the argument comes down to a small sample size of price playing slightly worse in the playoffs than the regular season... in a season where we will end up using Price less than we have in the past. Ok, lets play with that clutch "playoff performer" narrative again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 8 hours ago, Commandant said: The guys playing well are a run of good form. The guys playing poorly are never goiing to be able to get it going. Ok. As for markov... they are playing him way less this year. 2 minutes on average per game. thats gonna help. I mean I haven't said that Galchenyuk is just in a run of good form. I think he is great. I said Weber has been really good and I never said he was going to get worst. I specifically was talking about problems that the team will face and mentioned some problems. I had solid reasoning for what I was saying but I mean you can just ignore that and pretend I wasn't making points if you don't happen to agree with them haha not how dialogue is supposed to go but w.e. I'll revert to lurking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Roy taught us that if you have a goalie who can hit otherworldly levels of supremacy during the playoffs, you can win even with an imperfect roster. So that can't be denied. What can plausibly be denied is Price hasn't generally hit those Roy-like levels in the playoffs, although he has been very, very good. You can flip the 'best goalie wins' narrative on its head to say that the other goalie doesn't have to be better than Price; he doesn't even have to be as good as Price, assuming the other team has more offensive weapons than we do. All he has to do is be good enough to allow his team's superior offence to make the difference. That's basically what happened against TB. I'd feel a lot better if we only had ONE significant structural weakness - e.g., a hole in the top-4 OR a hole at C - rather than two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Well luckily for those that have concerns, there's a great chance that there will be some bolstering of the roster heading into playoffs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 32 minutes ago, Commandant said: So again the argument comes down to a small sample size of price playing slightly worse in the playoffs than the regular season... in a season where we will end up using Price less than we have in the past. Ok, lets play with that clutch "playoff performer" narrative again. Yeah... look at how many starts he got in November and tell me if it looks like he's playing less than in the past. Therrien has shown zero signs of actually playing Carey less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 50 minutes ago, bbp said: I mean I haven't said that Galchenyuk is just in a run of good form. I think he is great. I said Weber has been really good and I never said he was going to get worst. I specifically was talking about problems that the team will face and mentioned some problems. I had solid reasoning for what I was saying but I mean you can just ignore that and pretend I wasn't making points if you don't happen to agree with them haha not how dialogue is supposed to go but w.e. I'll revert to lurking. I wasn't rude to you, I didn't attack you... I didn't say anything other than that I disagree with you and I disagree with your reasoning. I pointed out that you are focused on the negative, and that you have assumed negative runs of form for guys like Plekanec and Pacioretty and Gallagher will continue, despite long, successful careers; but don't believe that Emelin and others can keep up their current play. If you can't respond to that, then the failure to create a dialogue is on you and not me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 7 hours ago, Stogey24 said: The Habs are 6th(and steadily falling) in league scoring because they had players like Mitchell, Danault, and Byron all scoring at an unsustainable rates. Not because 1 goal Plekanec and 3 goal Desharnais were tearing it up. ? Pittsburgh is a cup winning franchise in this decade. The Habs are not. ? When you have Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Hagelin, hornqvist, Lettang. You have the depth and skill to do damage. Not mention the fact that after Pitt fired Johnson, they turned their game on. ? You are just tossing crap into a post and making very little sense, but if it makes you feel better, fly at er. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 2 hours ago, DON said: You are just tossing crap into a post and making very little sense, but if it makes you feel better, fly at er. Makes very little sense? I know things go over your head. just take it slow buddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott462 Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 We currently have the Vezina and Norris front runners. And they are leading large. Chucky has been playing some great hockey and will only be getting better. Radulov has become IMO our best forward with incredible playmaking abilities. That group of guys have been good enough to keep us in the top of the standings. Now you have Patch you IMO has progressively been playing better and has started shooting more which is key in him starting to pot more and I'm sure Gally will get it going he's always out there working hard. I know the big question right now is Pleks and his lack of scoring and I think it definitely is an issue but at the same time he is a very good defensive centre and takes a lot of tough minutes and that is important to our system. And then there is DD who is one of our least used forwards and I think will probably be moved before the end of the year or sent down. I think a couple of moves are going to be made before the playoffs but MB is still waiting to see what position he needs to go in for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGC21 Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 On 2016-11-30 at 9:21 PM, DON said: Many Hab fans would say that sucks; oh well, lets kick NJ-Aves-Bruins butt at home then will be revenge game vs San Jose at the Bell Centre. Why, what do you Leaf fans say after a bad roadtrip, ..."as expected"? Please don't ever compare Leafs fans to Habs fans... it's not right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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