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2 hours ago, DON said:

So you have got zero prospects that you know have mistreated or should be in the NHL right now given 'better' coaching.

I agree and cant think of any either.

 

There are a number of prospects who had a chance to make it.... for every single one of them to fail is an indictment of coaching.  If 10 prospects all have a 25% chance of making the NHL and none of them makes it... thats statistically improbable.... and indicates that there might be something wrong with the development system. 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I have never heard ANYONE say a good thing about Lefevre. It's kind of incredible.

I heard his dog likes him, well sort of , at supper time.

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33 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

There are a number of prospects who had a chance to make it.... for every single one of them to fail is an indictment of coaching.  If 10 prospects all have a 25% chance of making the NHL and none of them makes it... thats statistically improbable.... and indicates that there might be something wrong with the development system. 

 

This reminds me of the debates over Gainey's regime: was the problem drafting, player development, or 'other?' And I strongly felt, based on positive reviews of our drafting, and on the fact that several of our better prospects in that era had behavioural/attitudinal issues, that player development was definitely the weak link. This view was reinforced when Bob fired the entire Hamilton staff, suggesting he too agreed with this analysis.

 

Your argument makes sense. Either that, or we have to accept that the Timmins-led scouting staff isn't very good. And again, given Timmins's credibility, along with universal opprobrium directed at Lefebvre, it's probably 'development.'

 

MB's idea of identifying a promising francophone coach and grooming him in the AHL was a good one. But at some point you have to cut the guy loose if he sucks. Sadly, at least when it comes to coaching, MB's priority seems to be protecting his bum-buddies rather than winning frigging hockey games.

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Timmins is still getting some of his prospects on the team, and with later picks like Lehkonen and Gallagher.  (and Galchenyuk too, but really you shouldn't miss on 3rd overall)... but the fact is that these guys are the ones who are total gems and have made it with very little AHL time.  Why can't the ones who need some polishing in the AHL graduate?  Its a particular problem at forward.... at least on defence we can point to Beaulieu and Pateryn as graduates. 

 

I also note that the draftees do reasonably well to really well in the junior/NCAA/European ranks before they get to the AHL. 
 

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The biggest issue to me is a guy like Hudon.  The fact that he's offensively ready but doesn't have the defensive game is a huge red flag to me.  Huge. Cause here is a guy who was one of the best defensive forwards in the entire CHL.  Assigned to a defensive specialist role on Canada's national junior team both as an 18 year old and a 19 year old.  Performed great at it too... (missed one tournament due to health, but was great in the summer tourneys, in training camp, and in exhibition for that team); was great in the Subway Series in that role too. 

 

And then he gets to the AHL, and shows no progression in his defensive game.  Is now not in the NHL cause he's considered a defensive liability. 

 

How is there a guy who shows an aptitude in the CHL, but we can't take that and coach him up to be even average or decent at the AHL level, nope, we've now got a defensive liability. Yes, the AHL is harder than junior, but when you have a good junior you should be able to take that and make him better. 

 

 

How is that not on coaching?

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Just now, Commandant said:

The biggest issue to me is a guy like Hudon.  The fact that he's offensively ready but doesn't have the defensive game is a huge red flag to me.  Huge. Cause here is a guy who was one of the best defensive forwards in the entire CHL.  Assigned to a defensive specialist role on Canada's national junior team both as an 18 year old and a 19 year old.  Performed great at it too... (missed one tournament due to health, but was great in the summer tourneys, in training camp, and in exhibition for that team); was great in the Subway Series in that role too. 

 

And then he gets to the AHL, and shows no progression in his defensive game.  Is now not in the NHL cause he's considered a defensive liability. 

 

How is there a guy who shows an aptitude in the CHL, but we can't take that and coach him up to be even average or decent at the AHL level, nope, we've now got a defensive liability. Yes, the AHL is harder than junior, but when you have a good junior you should be able to take that and make him better. 

 

 

How is that not on coaching?

 

Love your insights, Commandant. :thumbs_up:

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I'm glad that I'm not the only one seeing the problem with the development system in Montreal.  It's one thing to fail to get a 7th round pick or even some other late round project or longshot to the NHL, but it becomes an issue when your blue chip prospects aren't making it.

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4 hours ago, Commandant said:

The biggest issue to me is a guy like Hudon.  The fact that he's offensively ready but doesn't have the defensive game is a huge red flag to me.  Huge. Cause here is a guy who was one of the best defensive forwards in the entire CHL.  Assigned to a defensive specialist role on Canada's national junior team both as an 18 year old and a 19 year old.  Performed great at it too... (missed one tournament due to health, but was great in the summer tourneys, in training camp, and in exhibition for that team); was great in the Subway Series in that role too. 

 

And then he gets to the AHL, and shows no progression in his defensive game.  Is now not in the NHL cause he's considered a defensive liability. 

 

How is there a guy who shows an aptitude in the CHL, but we can't take that and coach him up to be even average or decent at the AHL level, nope, we've now got a defensive liability. Yes, the AHL is harder than junior, but when you have a good junior you should be able to take that and make him better. 

 

 

How is that not on coaching?

 

Almost the exact same thing happened to Jordan Eberle. 

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10 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I have never heard ANYONE say a good thing about Lefevre. It's kind of incredible.

OK;

He is French, which is very important and a big plus...for this franchise anyways.

He was a grinder type of NHLer in his playing days, which some very successful coaches also were.

He seems very even in his temperament, in interviews anyways.

 

As far as player deployment, usage dlbalr says he makes too many odd or poor decisions (Mayer the goalie being played as he was, as one).

And Commandant also I think would of fired him long ago.

When Bergevin hired all three French coaches several years ago, it surely seemed more political than anything else, same for latest hire, LaCarriere.

Team lack of success has been pretty consistent.

Few prospects it 'seems' have overachieved and some 'may' of been poorly developed.

 

 

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12 hours ago, DON said:

OK;

He is French, which is very important and a big plus...for this franchise anyways.

He was a grinder type of NHLer in his playing days, which some very successful coaches also were.

He seems very even in his temperament, in interviews anyways.

 

As far as player deployment, usage dlbalr says he makes too many odd or poor decisions (Mayer the goalie being played as he was, as one).

And Commandant also I think would of fired him long ago.

When Bergevin hired all three French coaches several years ago, it surely seemed more political than anything else, same for latest hire, LaCarriere.

Team lack of success has been pretty consistent.

Few prospects it 'seems' have overachieved and some 'may' of been poorly developed.

 

 

 

Given the asinine affirmative action policy on coaches, I agree that we should create a bilingual  coaching pipeline. But surely this guy - whom even the even-keeled dlbalr rejects - is not the best that French-speaking North America can come up with. Flush him down the crapper and start over.

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43 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Given the asinine affirmative action policy on coaches, I agree that we should create a bilingual  coaching pipeline. But surely this guy - whom even the even-keeled dlbalr rejects - is not the best that French-speaking North America can come up with. Flush him down the crapper and start over.

Would love to see them toss something to tempt Gallant to take a AHL coaching job...but aint happening. I just don't know enough to say Lefebvre has been terrible or not, it is evident that Bergevin puts little stock in having a successful AHL team and every year hasn't signed the vets to bolster the team and seems of opinion 'let the kids play and sink or swim mentality'. So all the failure of team cant be simply placed at Lefebvre's feet...can it?

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I've been saying for a few years now that Montreal should hire Jean-Francois Houle as the head coach for it's AHL team, and groom him to become the next head coach for Montreal (assuming he does well of course). He has experience coaching in different leagues starting in the NCAA, then doing an amazing job in the Q leading average teams on paper as strong contenders, and now he has experience coaching in the ECHL and the AHL. 

 

As a bonus he's the son of one the so-called glorieux, being the son of Rejean Houle, and although he never made it to the NHL he was drafted by the Canadiens, and knows what it is like to grow in this organization. 

 

I'm not sure why a few years Montreal ignored him as he was coaching literally a few kilometers away from Montreal, the question today would be whether the Oilers - who have recognized his talent and potential - would be willing to let him go if Montreal was to fire Lefebvre now. 

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2 hours ago, DON said:

I just don't know enough to say Lefebvre has been terrible or not, it is evident that Bergevin puts little stock in having a successful AHL team and every year hasn't signed the vets to bolster the team and seems of opinion 'let the kids play and sink or swim mentality'. So all the failure of team cant be simply placed at Lefebvre's feet...can it?

 

Bergevin's indifference towards having players develop in a winning environment is undoubtedly a factor.  They've decided that the function of their farm team is to maximize regular season playing time for their prospects.  I'd suggest the strategy hasn't worked out all that well given that there hasn't been a whole lot coming through Hamilton/St. John's in recent years aside from passable injury call-ups but he doesn't seem to mind the results so far.

 

1 hour ago, CerebusClone said:

I've been saying for a few years now that Montreal should hire Jean-Francois Houle as the head coach for it's AHL team, and groom him to become the next head coach for Montreal (assuming he does well of course). He has experience coaching in different leagues starting in the NCAA, then doing an amazing job in the Q leading average teams on paper as strong contenders, and now he has experience coaching in the ECHL and the AHL. 

 

As a bonus he's the son of one the so-called glorieux, being the son of Rejean Houle, and although he never made it to the NHL he was drafted by the Canadiens, and knows what it is like to grow in this organization. 

 

I'm not sure why a few years Montreal ignored him as he was coaching literally a few kilometers away from Montreal, the question today would be whether the Oilers - who have recognized his talent and potential - would be willing to let him go if Montreal was to fire Lefebvre now. 

 

When they hired Lefebvre, I think they were looking for someone that had pro coaching experience and Lefebvre had that having worked with Colorado before joining the Bulldogs whereas Houle only had junior experience at that time.  Now, he should be a much stronger candidate.  He's only an assistant with Bakersfield so I can't see Edmonton standing in the way if they were to offer him the head coaching job in Laval.

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1 minute ago, CerebusClone said:

True about Lefebvre and professional experience, but bringing in Houle as an assistant would have give the Has some strong options internal candidates for the future. 

 

They did pull a 'Q'-based coach to work with Lefebvre that year - Donald Dufresne.  If I remember correctly, the other assistant in their first year was a holdover from the previous AHL staff in Ron Wilson.

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