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The Habs Need a Better Backup


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1 hour ago, JoeLassister said:

Based on where the organization is going.

 

They want to developp Lindgren into a starting goalie to  play him or trade him.

NHL starter is his ceiling, his potential.


Not Montoya's.

This  +  his record so far as illWill points out.

That record is over 3 years and dosent include any poor outings or losing streaks, so that is still unchartered waters for the kid.

Last time (2015-16) in hindsight many critics were very vocal about not getting an experienced goalie to help Condon carry the load and I see same situation at the moment and wouldn't say Lindgren is ready for 40+ more starts with Montoya as his back-up.

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Just now, DON said:

That record is over 3 years and dosent include any poor outings or losing streaks, so that is still unchartered waters for the kid.

Last time (2015-16) in hindsight many critics were very vocal about not getting an experienced goalie to help Condon carry the load and I see same situation at the moment and wouldn't say Lindgren is ready for 40+ more starts with Montoya as his back-up.

?????  We do have an experienced goalie to help Lindgren carry the load  in Montoya...

I would say that Lindgren is more than capable to play 6 to 7 games out of 10 with Montoya as the backup as long as he keeps playing like yesterday.

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7 minutes ago, Commandant said:

When Price is healthy, I'd deal montoya.  Even if it imeans a 6th or 7th in return. 

Why ?   To put Lindgren as the backup ?   Why slow down his developpment instead of being #1 in the AHL ?

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1 hour ago, JoeLassister said:

Why ?   To put Lindgren as the backup ?   Why slow down his developpment instead of being #1 in the AHL ?

 

I don't think he has much more "development" to do in the AHL.  He's about to be 24 next month. 

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14 minutes ago, Commandant said:

I also don't know why we are talking about him playing the next 20 games or something.  All reports were that price's injury is minor. 

It was supposed to be minor 2 years ago as well...

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2 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

I would say that Lindgren is more than capable to play 6 to 7 games out of 10 

Based on what?

His 3-3-2, 3.53 gaa and 0.885% record in AHL this year maybe?

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Well, we just bought gear for my son, so if they can hold out another 11-12 years, he should be ready by then.

 

Lindgren's brief NHL career numbers are nice, but it's a rather small sample size. While I'm happy with the results of last night's game, I can't say (from what I saw) that I'd anoint him the next starter just yet.

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2 minutes ago, huzer said:

Well, we just bought gear for my son, so if they can hold out another 11-12 years, he should be ready by then.

 

Lindgren's brief NHL career numbers are nice, but it's a rather small sample size. While I'm happy with the results of last night's game, I can't say (from what I saw) that I'd anoint him the next starter just yet.

Agree and will wait and see on the goalie prodigy.

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27 minutes ago, DON said:

Based on what?

His 3-3-2, 3.53 gaa and 0.885% record in AHL this year maybe?

Dude,  you're the most vocal supporter of eye test on this board.

 

Lindgren has been at least pretty good in each and every game he played in the NHL so far.

I return the question :  He would not be capable of playing 6 to 7 games out of 10 for the Habs  based on what ?  Based on the feeling that the sample is too small so he will probably lose some games ???  Of cours he will.  Price will, Montoya will,  Martin freaking Brodeur will.

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1 hour ago, DON said:

Based on what?

His 3-3-2, 3.53 gaa and 0.885% record in AHL this year maybe?

 

Could be he's bored in the AHL.

 

Could be he's overperforming in the NHL. 

 

But right now I am on the Lindgren train and I am not getting off!*

 

 

 

*until he plays poorly

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2 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

Dude,  you're the most vocal supporter of eye test on this board.

 

Lindgren has been at least pretty good in each and every game he played in the NHL so far.

I return the question :  He would not be capable of playing 6 to 7 games out of 10 for the Habs  based on what ?  Based on the feeling that the sample is too small so he will probably lose some games ???  Of cours he will.  Price will, Montoya will,  Martin freaking Brodeur will.

Yes, he played great vs Chicago and made several awesome saves that Montoya (or Price) wouldn't have made.

 

I know I cant remember any of his other three starts, as they are ancient history.

 

"as long as he plays like he did yesterday" Is what you said and we all know he wont every game and that is the big unknown. How will he rebound (or not) after being pulled or losing a couple games, is what I want to see before jumping on bandwagon.

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1 hour ago, Trizzak said:

 

Could be he's bored in the AHL.

 

Could be he's overperforming in the NHL. 

 

But right now I am on the Lindgren train and I am not getting off!*

 

 

 

*until he plays poorly

Is a given that he will play poorly at some point, they all do. It is only when he consistently gives up a softie or two in most games that you likely should jump off bandwagon.

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4 hours ago, DON said:

Based on what?

His 3-3-2, 3.53 gaa and 0.885% record in AHL this year maybe?

 

His stats down there are deceptive, he had a couple real stinkers that were destroying all his averages, however with that said, he is highly regarded as a goalie of the future. Lebrun nailed it on TSN when he said he is likely to go down the same road a guy like Cam Talbot did in NY with the Habs, he is a goalie of the future, just not our future, but we will and certainly should use him while he is still here.

 

Not going to be able to convince this kid or his agent to agree to spend a good chunk of his prime years playing back up to Price, not while he and everyone else are starting to notice he is a potential NHL starter in a couple years. 

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38 minutes ago, Link67 said:

Not going to be able to convince this kid or his agent to agree to spend a good chunk of his prime years playing back up to Price, not while he and everyone else are starting to notice he is a potential NHL starter in a couple years. 

Of course not and hope his value is rising.

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4 hours ago, Link67 said:

 

His stats down there are deceptive, he had a couple real stinkers that were destroying all his averages, however with that said, he is highly regarded as a goalie of the future. Lebrun nailed it on TSN when he said he is likely to go down the same road a guy like Cam Talbot did in NY with the Habs, he is a goalie of the future, just not our future, but we will and certainly should use him while he is still here.

 

Not going to be able to convince this kid or his agent to agree to spend a good chunk of his prime years playing back up to Price, not while he and everyone else are starting to notice he is a potential NHL starter in a couple years. 

 

Raise his value, and then move him for a piece we need (or some good draft choices). That is always the plan. 

 

By the time that happens, McNiven could be ready to be the backup and do the same. 

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8 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Raise his value, and then move him for a piece we need (or some good draft choices). That is always the plan. 

 

By the time that happens, McNiven could be ready to be the backup and do the same. 

 

But how much does a promising young goalie command on the market? Goalies generally seem to be under-valued. 

 

Incidentally, if he evolves into Corey Schneider, we could regret committing to the back-nine of Price's career. (Not saying this is likely - just that a time, perhaps in the next 3-4 years, will come when the up and coming guy represents better value than #31).

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55 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

But how much does a promising young goalie command on the market? Goalies generally seem to be under-valued. 

 

Incidentally, if he evolves into Corey Schneider, we could regret committing to the back-nine of Price's career. (Not saying this is likely - just that a time, perhaps in the next 3-4 years, will come when the up and coming guy represents better value than #31).

 

 

Corey Schnieder got the 9th overall pick. 

Robin Lehner + David Legwand (a cap dump) got 21st overall
Cam Talbot got three picks (57, 79 and 184 overall)
Martin Jones got a 1st round pick and Sean Kuraly
Jonathan Bernier got a 2nd round pick, Matt Frattin, and Ben Scrivens..... shortly thereafter the Kings moved Scrivens for another 3rd. 

Antti Raanta is hard to value cause its a package deal but... Raanta + Stepan got 7th overall and DeAngelo

 

Scott Darling is also hard to value.  They got a third round pick, but were likely losing him in the expansion draft, so the value was depressed. 

There is some value in moving a young back-up, who could be a starter there. 

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I like Price more than most, but the problem that I have is his salary cap hit starting next season. I think that a goaltender that makes much less who performs a bit below Price at 10.5 million, has much more value to the overall team. That's the thing in a salary cap world, we don't just value players based on their on ice performance anymore, there is a number attached to them which increases or decrease their value. I'd rather have a Gibson, Talbot, Valisilevsky or Murray at 4 million or under than even the best goalie in the world at 10.5. If Charlie Lindgren can develop into one of those types of goalies I would much rather keep him during that time before he gets paid the big bucks, and spend the remaining money elsewhere. The return on similar goalies as Commandant pointed out above are for futures, not immediate help. I don't want the Habs to be in the business of developing world class goaltenders for other organizations, and then blowing the draft picks like they have been. 

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There is no reason why you can't win with Price at 10.5 million. 

 

when the Rangers signed lundqvist, his % of the cap, is exactly the same as Price today. 

 

They made a Cup final, another conference final, and have generally been very competitive throughout his deal, while using Talbot and Raantta to fetch other pieces. 

 

Yeah, you get picks and prospects for your goalies... but that doesn't mean you can't turn around and trade a 1st round pick for another player you need on your roster. 

Its an assumption that just cause you move the goalie for a pick, you have to use the pick.... you don't.   Its another asset that can be used to build with.  I just gave you a gauge of value. 

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51 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

 

Corey Schnieder got the 9th overall pick. 

Robin Lehner + David Legwand (a cap dump) got 21st overall
Cam Talbot got three picks (57, 79 and 184 overall)
Martin Jones got a 1st round pick and Sean Kuraly
Jonathan Bernier got a 2nd round pick, Matt Frattin, and Ben Scrivens..... shortly thereafter the Kings moved Scrivens for another 3rd. 

Antti Raanta is hard to value cause its a package deal but... Raanta + Stepan got 7th overall and DeAngelo

 

Scott Darling is also hard to value.  They got a third round pick, but were likely losing him in the expansion draft, so the value was depressed. 

There is some value in moving a young back-up, who could be a starter there. 

 

Very good post, thanks. I guess my impression that goalies are under-valued is a bit out of date; young promising goalies in a cap world do seem to command value.

 

On Price, yes, you can win with him. But after nearly a decade, I believe it's safe to conclude that he will not be the decisive competitive advantage, in the way Roy was, over four rounds. This is the aspect of the Price mystique that we need to abandon IMHO.

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17 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Very good post, thanks. I guess my impression that goalies are under-valued is a bit out of date; young promising goalies in a cap world do seem to command value.

 

On Price, yes, you can win with him. But after nearly a decade, I believe it's safe to conclude that he will not be the decisive competitive advantage, in the way Roy was, over four rounds. This is the aspect of the Price mystique that we need to abandon IMHO.

 

Is it an aspect of the Price mystique we need to abandon, or has the Roy mystique been enhanced.  While he was no doubt the best goalie in the league at the time, and the MVP of those teams, the late 80s/early 90s habs had more talent than given credit for. 

 

A strong number 1 centre in Bobby Smith (86) and Kirk Muller (93)
The best checking line in hockey (Carbonneau's lines)
Dynamic wingers (Naslund and Damphousse)
A Norris winner (Chelios and solid group in 86),  A group of young D that would go onto big things (Schneider, Desjardins, etc...)

 

Has the team in front of price been as good and well balanced as that?  Heck he's never had the number 1 c in front of him. 

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54 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Is it an aspect of the Price mystique we need to abandon, or has the Roy mystique been enhanced.  While he was no doubt the best goalie in the league at the time, and the MVP of those teams, the late 80s/early 90s habs had more talent than given credit for. 

 

A strong number 1 centre in Bobby Smith (86) and Kirk Muller (93)
The best checking line in hockey (Carbonneau's lines)
Dynamic wingers (Naslund and Damphousse)
A Norris winner (Chelios and solid group in 86),  A group of young D that would go onto big things (Schneider, Desjardins, etc...)

 

Has the team in front of price been as good and well balanced as that?  Heck he's never had the number 1 c in front of him. 

 

Actually, I agree. The 1993 team has gone down in history as an average team elevated by a brilliant goaltender. I think I've even read Muller saying something of the sort in an interview. This is poppycock. That team was #1 overall - this in a year when Roy had a pretty middling regular season - until a late-season skid moved it a few spots down the standings. It had a superb mix of elite young talent and excellent veterans, and was only under-valued because it lacked a sublime offensive superstar (this being the Mario/jagr/Gretzky era). What Roy did was put it over the edge.

 

What I'm also pretty confident of, though, is that Price - unlike Roy in that era - is unlikely to outclass his opposite number over four straight series. Sooner or later, we run into a goalie who is playing close enough to Price's level as to neutralize the 'Price advantage.' At the point, we absolutely need to have a team that can win a series against strong teams on its own merits - which, as you say, we haven't had even once in the Price era. But if we're planning on winning a Cup (a fanciful scenario given that the team is run by a dumb-bell) it cannot be on the assumption that we have the clear-cut best-performing goalie each round for four rounds. Historically, Price either gets hurt or runs into a goalie who is playing at his level. So we can't pencil in the 'Price Advantage' as sustaining us over an entire playoff run.

 

And maybe the whole premise is unfair. After all, Crosby has had series where he's struggled and his team has still gone on to win. Maybe the Roy/Dryden '71 scenario is untenable or such a historical rarity that we need to forget about it and recognize that one specific player hardly ever represents The Edge over an entire playoff.

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