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Deadline Day Discussion


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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I wonder if their GM (Kookoo or whatever his name is) has been told "make the playoffs or you're fired." That's what all this futile scrambling looks like to me.

 

He's been told that Panarin and Bobrovsky are leaving after the season. 

 

He had a decision to make.... rebuild or go all in for one run. 

 

He decided to go all in. 

 

They better win the cup, cause they are gonna be F-ed soon. 

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19 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Brannstrom and Suzuki are about the same level of prospect. 

2nd rounders are about the same. 

Tatar >>>>>>>>>>>> Lindberg

 

Bergevin got more for Pacioretty than Dorion did for Stone and I think Stone is the better player. 

That's true. Stone is a pure rental and pacioretty had a full year under contract. Other than that, the pac trade looks very good

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9 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

That's true. Stone is a pure rental and pacioretty had a full year under contract. Other than that, the pac trade looks very good

 

Stone will sign an extension on March 1st. 8 year deal, 9.5 per, full NMC.

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42 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

The only knock I have on stone is his speed. Laraque is faster I think. Him and crankshaft would have a good race. His hands are like budda.

 

Slow foot speed is to this era what small size was 20 years ago. It causes a player to be undervalued even when he is able to excel despite the handicap. Stone scored goals and is dangerous- how he does it is immaterial IMHO.

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Stone's skating isn't great, but its improved to where its passable in the NHL. 

 

His defensive play is amongst the best of any winger in the NHL.  He should be a Selke contender, but it seems you have to be a Centre to now win that award (which was created for Bob Gainey, but I digress). 

He drives possession for a line in a way that very few wingers in the NHL do. 

 

I would love to have him, and if the Habs can't, I'm glad he's out of the division.

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56 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Stone's skating isn't great, but its improved to where its passable in the NHL. 

 

His defensive play is amongst the best of any winger in the NHL.  He should be a Selke contender, but it seems you have to be a Centre to now win that award (which was created for Bob Gainey, but I digress). 

He drives possession for a line in a way that very few wingers in the NHL do. 

 

I would love to have him, and if the Habs can't, I'm glad he's out of the division.

 

What do you think of the AAV though?  That's Kucherov territory, and I can't find a player who's less valuable at that number or higher.

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

Stone's skating isn't great, but its improved to where its passable in the NHL. 

 

His defensive play is amongst the best of any winger in the NHL.  He should be a Selke contender, but it seems you have to be a Centre to now win that award (which was created for Bob Gainey, but I digress). 

He drives possession for a line in a way that very few wingers in the NHL do. 

 

I would love to have him, and if the Habs can't, I'm glad he's out of the division.

Agree. Takeaway numbers are awesome. Datsukian hands. 

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18 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

He's been told that Panarin and Bobrovsky are leaving after the season. 

 

He had a decision to make.... rebuild or go all in for one run. 

 

He decided to go all in. 

 

They better win the cup, cause they are gonna be F-ed soon. 

 

Going all in on a middling team in a year where TB is in your conference and playing like an all-time great steamroller...hmmmm. 

 

This might be the first case I can think of of a franchise going 'all in' and selling its future in order to win a single playoff round. Because that's the vastly more realistic objective for this group.

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People are becoming too prediction oriented and perfectionist based.  I don't think Columbus has a chance at a cup either but while it may be true that it's happened, teams in the east shouldn't simply throw in the towel as though they have no chance. Teams should focus on their own selves and path without worrying about the juggernaut of the league. It's entirely possible that the team that wins the Stanley Cup does so without even facing Tampa. Even in the east.  Perhaps Kucherov and Vasilevskiy get injured by the 3rd game of the playoffs. Anyway, I don't see there being anything wrong with what Columbus did, really.  They weren't the best of teams but should they have traded Panarin and Bobrovsky,  fans would be looking at another 3-5 year rebuild.  The same could perhaps be said after this season, due to receiving no assets in return for those two,  but at least they've placed themselves well in the present. It's easy to assume that they'll only win a playoff round,  but really that's not clear as day.  When they win 3 rounds this year instead of one,  no one will be surprised either. If I'm a fan of Columbus,  and even a knowledgeable one at that,  I'm still happy with the direction the organization went this year. It was a no win situation and I think they did well.

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12 hours ago, Neech said:

 

What do you think of the AAV though?  That's Kucherov territory, and I can't find a player who's less valuable at that number or higher.

 

I think you underrate Mark Stone.  
I think he's a legit top 5 winger in the league.  I think he's better than Panarin.

 

He's more valuable than Jonathan Toews and Jamie Benn right now.  Both are higher AAVs

I think its a fair contract for him.  He can drive a line. 

 

The CF% when he is on the ice for Ottawa, vs when he is off the ice.  Other than Connor McDavid, I don't think any player in the league has as big an effect on his team's results this year.
 

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2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Going all in on a middling team in a year where TB is in your conference and playing like an all-time great steamroller...hmmmm. 

 

This might be the first case I can think of of a franchise going 'all in' and selling its future in order to win a single playoff round. Because that's the vastly more realistic objective for this group.

 

I don't disagree with you.  Just explaining Columbus' thinking here. 

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12 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

I think you underrate Mark Stone.  
I think he's a legit top 5 winger in the league.  I think he's better than Panarin.

 

He's more valuable than Jonathan Toews and Jamie Benn right now.  Both are higher AAVs

I think its a fair contract for him.  He can drive a line. 

 

The CF% when he is on the ice for Ottawa, vs when he is off the ice.  Other than Connor McDavid, I don't think any player in the league has as big an effect on his team's results this year.
 

 

Alright I definitely underrate Mark Stone if he's a top 5 winger in the league.  I was going to mention Toews as a maybe less valuable player at this point due to age, but then I saw he was scoring at a ppg pace with a better scoring history and a strong defensive reputation.  Maybe I value just plain old points more than CF%.

 

I don't think we have any players currently on the roster who are worth that sort of cap hit, even 8M.  

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15 minutes ago, Neech said:

 

Alright I definitely underrate Mark Stone if he's a top 5 winger in the league.  I was going to mention Toews as a maybe less valuable player at this point due to age, but then I saw he was scoring at a ppg pace with a better scoring history and a strong defensive reputation.  Maybe I value just plain old points more than CF%.

 

I don't think we have any players currently on the roster who are worth that sort of cap hit, even 8M.  

 

On our roster, Shea Weber and Carey Price are worth that cap hit. 

I don't think we have any forwards currently worth that cap hit either.  I also don't think we have any forwards as good as Mark Stone.  If NHLers were going to the Olympics last year, I would have picked him for Team Canada.  He's a stud. 

As for plain old points he was also better than PPG last year.... 62 in 58.  He's 62 in 59 this year, and both of those seasons are on an absolutely brutal team. 

 

Also on top of those points, he's probably the best defensive winger in the NHL. I think he should be nominated for the Selke, but it seems the voters only vote for centres now. 

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34 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

People are becoming too prediction oriented and perfectionist based.  I don't think Columbus has a chance at a cup either but while it may be true that it's happened, teams in the east shouldn't simply throw in the towel as though they have no chance. Teams should focus on their own selves and path without worrying about the juggernaut of the league. It's entirely possible that the team that wins the Stanley Cup does so without even facing Tampa. Even in the east.  Perhaps Kucherov and Vasilevskiy get injured by the 3rd game of the playoffs. Anyway, I don't see there being anything wrong with what Columbus did, really.  They weren't the best of teams but should they have traded Panarin and Bobrovsky,  fans would be looking at another 3-5 year rebuild.  The same could perhaps be said after this season, due to receiving no assets in return for those two,  but at least they've placed themselves well in the present. It's easy to assume that they'll only win a playoff round,  but really that's not clear as day.  When they win 3 rounds this year instead of one,  no one will be surprised either. If I'm a fan of Columbus,  and even a knowledgeable one at that,  I'm still happy with the direction the organization went this year. It was a no win situation and I think they did well.

Good post.

 

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I like what Columbus did.  If you're going to go for it, than go for it.  I'd rather see that than see a weaker team waste assets to "tweak" their roster.  Columbus really strengthened their team with the moves they made.  They addressed their needs.  I'm not big believer in selling out the future, but if you are going to do that, this is the way to do it.  All or nothing, no in between crap.

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7 hours ago, John B said:

I like what Columbus did.  If you're going to go for it, than go for it.  I'd rather see that than see a weaker team waste assets to "tweak" their roster.  Columbus really strengthened their team with the moves they made.  They addressed their needs.  I'm not big believer in selling out the future, but if you are going to do that, this is the way to do it.  All or nothing, no in between crap.

 

But the team was not a contender. It's fine to praise them for going all in, but they are looking at scorched earth in terms of drafting and development. If they crap out in the first couple of rounds, as seems likely, and then face an extended stretch of mediocrity with no end in sight due to lack of picks and prospects, how does that make sense? Three years from now all anyone will think about is player X or Y who they could have drafted if they hadn't thrown away their picks on a longshot non-contender. You go all in to add key missing pieces on a contender. Not to add pieces to a midrange team.

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Columbus was in a unique situation in that they had realistic playoff aspirations while two of their stars were becoming UFA at season's end without intentions to resign. 

 

The worst of their options would have been to stand pat and do nothing.  Furthermore,  after exploring their options perhaps the incoming return for Panarin and/or Bobrovsky would have been underwhelming.  

 

While it's unlikely that all of their impending unrestricted free agents will indeed resign,  it's not out of the realm of possibility that a good playoff showing may entice someone like Duchene or Dzingel, or Mcquaid, or Kinkaid or even Panarin or Bobrovsky to sign extentions or new contracts with the club.  Trade away Panarin and/or Bobrovsky and who will even want to play for Columbus in the foreseeable future? I'm sure after this year,  even if they lose some of those players,  they'll sign some players in the off season.  

 

As for the all in mentality,  they've lost a considerable amount of draft picks,  but they'll still have players like Jones, Werenski,  Foligno,  Dubois on the club and their prospect pool isn't entirely empty with players like Liam Foudy.  I don't think they'll be that bad next year. 

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26 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

But the team was not a contender. It's fine to praise them for going all in, but they are looking at scorched earth in terms of drafting and development. If they crap out in the first couple of rounds, as seems likely, and then face an extended stretch of mediocrity with no end in sight due to lack of picks and prospects, how does that make sense? Three years from now all anyone will think about is player X or Y who they could have drafted if they hadn't thrown away their picks on a longshot non-contender. You go all in to add key missing pieces on a contender. Not to add pieces to a midrange team.

 

As soon as our game ends (and being 7-1 i'm confident we will win it) Columbus will be officially sitting outside of a playoff spot

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12 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Columbus was in a unique situation in that they had realistic playoff aspirations while two of their stars were becoming UFA at season's end without intentions to resign.

Is nice to see them shut out in 1st game after deadline.

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I have no problem with people saying they want their team to GO FOR IT.

 

My question is: how many of those same fans (and media commentators) remember their support for this approach, and consequently temper their criticism when the team fails to win and then craters for five years because they don't have any prospects? For that matter, how many owners remember that the team gutted its cupboard trying to 'go for it' and now is paying the piper?

 

Very few, I'd guess.

 

That's why if I were a GM,  I would only go all-in if I were firmly convinced that I had the foundations for a rock-solid contender already in place. The same people cheering me for 'going for it' will be baying for my blood once the consequences are felt.

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I have no problem with people saying they want their team to GO FOR IT.

 

My question is: how many of those same fans (and media commentators) remember their support for this approach, and consequently temper their criticism when the team fails to win and then craters for five years because they don't have any prospects? For that matter, how many owners remember that the team gutted its cupboard trying to 'go for it' and now is paying the piper?

 

Very few, I'd guess.

 

That's why if I were a GM,  I would only go all-in if I were firmly convinced that I had the foundations for a rock-solid contender already in place. The same people cheering me for 'going for it' will be baying for my blood once the consequences are felt.

 

 

 

 

Hell Blackhawks fans called for Quennevilles head this season and many now want Bowman fired.

 

Even the team that went all in and succeeded and won 3 cups... that team's fanbase is calling for coaches and GMs to be fired.

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