Gainey's changes

[beckham]

Bonk deal was good. Garon is overrated (unclaimed on waivers) and not well suited to be a backup. If he can win the starting job in L.A., good for him and he deserves it. Everyone will be better off in that case. Huet is cheaper, more experienced in the NHL, and doesn't have the same ambitions. Bonk is underrated and now that his salary is rolled back, not overpaid. The third round pick was a bonus from the Hackett deal that brought Nik Sundstrom, another underrated player.

As for Kovalev and Dandenault, you can make a case that they may be better than some of the other players available at the moment, but remember that their salaries will serve as benchmarks for the next 4 years. How are they going to resign Markov for a reasonable price in a year or two when he is obviously head and shoulders better than Dandenault. Suppose Jan Bulis outscores Kovalev (a distinct possibility in my books) the next couple of seasons. How do they justify paying him less than Kovalev?

[shortcat1]

Beckham, first of all, you know that I haven't been one of your bashers. I've disagreed with some of what you've said and I've appreciated the info and encouraging contributions you made with regards to the newest draftees. Anything else has been a tease and an enjoyment of the way your dramatically express yourself. It seems to me that you like to stir the waters, as I've said before, and stand back and watch. I do that too and enjoy it.

In any case, your argument that Montreal has come out ahead with those trades that were done in the late 80's to mid 90's isn't really valid. Yes, we did get some good players in some of those exchanges but they were not of the calibre of the ones traded away. I remember the series of Canadiens captains who were let go. It was as if the heart of the team was being continuously cut out. And yes, the trades did give us players which came out of later drafts. Yes, we did get Zednik and Bulis. The thing is, though, the draft choices were not necessarily a direct result of the trades (like what Sam Pollock did in order to get Guy Lafleur). Happily, the drafted players did work out for Montreal. They could just as easily not have worked out, knowing the risks involved in picking any player in the draft.

If memory serves me correctly, the GM who traded Zubrus and Linden to Washington was André Savard and what a steal that was. The draft choices under Savard's tenure as GM are not doing too badly, on the whole. For the record, we got some good ones during Houle's tenure too.

I trust that you can accept when you've made an error or not fully considered some of the infor in what you've contributed to these discussions.

[beckham]

Is that most of those players were about to become free agents just as Houle traded them. Even if Montreal could have afforded to resign them, most of them did not want to play in the city. If Reggie hadn't dealt them all the team would have to show would be some 3rd or 4th round compensatory draft picks. The team had a chance to sign every one of them at least once after Houle was dismissed as G.M. Not one of them has returned to the city, and rumor had it that Turgeon turned down a higher offer from Montreal to sign with Dallas.

As for Savard's draft picks....not one of them that I know of is a regular in the NHL at this time, with Komisarek the closest. If Mark Streit turns out as I expect, Gainey could have more draft picks starting for the team than Savard. There are many Houle picks who have or are playing in the NHL even though he left Savard with a bounty of extra draft picks and high position (7th overall).

[shortcat1]

Originally posted by beckham

As for Savard's draft picks....not one of them that I know of is a regular in the NHL at this time, with Komisarek the closest.

THE DRAFT PICKS UNDER HOULE'S TENURE HAVE BEEN AROUND LONGER AND HAVE 'PAID THEIR DUES'. THOSE WHO WERE PICKED WHILE SAVARD WAS GM ARE STILL YOUNG YET AND ARE STILL PAYING THEIR DUES.

If Mark Streit turns out as I expect, Gainey could have more draft picks starting for the team than Savard.

THAT MAY VERY WELL BE LIKELY AND, IF SO, GREAT! KEEP IN MIND, THOUGH, THAT ANY PLAYERS PICKED DURING GAINEY'S TENURE AS GM ARE ALSO PARTLY SAVARD'S RESPONSIBILITY SINCE HE'S PART OF GAINEY'S GROUP.

There are many Houle picks who have or are playing in the NHL even though he left Savard with a bounty of extra draft picks and high position (7th overall).

SAVARD'S 7TH OVERALL DRAFT POSITION COULD WELL BE DUE TO HOULE'S INFLUENCE, YES, BUT NO ONE GETS A PICK THAT HIGH UNLESS THEIR TEAM FINISHES REALLY POORLY THE SEASON BEFORE. SO, IF IT'S HOULE WHO LEFT SAVARD WITH THAT PICK THEN IT'S HOULE'S MANAGEMENT ORGANIZATION THAT PUT MONTREAL IN THE POSITION THAT WOULD ALLOW THEM THE 7TH PICK - NOT A GLOWING STATEMENT IN ITSELF.

[matsnaslundsuperfan]

Originally posted by shortcat1

Beckham, you know that I've agreed with everything that you've said and I've appreciated the info contributed to these discussions.

As mom has suggested, you are truly in need of that therapy.

[Roo-AH! Roo-AH!]

Wow, I can't believe I have to make the case that Houle was a bozo. Still, let's see:

Savard runs the show from 1983-1995. In 12 years:

-thee Finals appearances

-two Stanley Cups (86 and 93)

-the team scores AT LEAST 90 points in 8 seasons, including 3 seasons of 100+ points. Between 85-95, the Habs' worst showing is 87 points (in 1985-6).

-they miss the playoffs once (1995).

Houle runs the show from 1995-2000. In 5 years:

-the Habs miss the playoffs 3 times

-the only season to hit 90 points is 1995-96, when Savard's core is still intact. After one full year of Houle, the team collapses to 77 points. Then we get 87, 75, and 83. So Houle's BEST season is equal to Savard's WORST. The pathetic shambles of a franchise that Andre Savard inherits finishes with 70 points. Truly, a record of success.

Incidentally, you can't credit Reggie Houle for acquiring players that Andre Savard was later able to trade for quality assets. Zubrus for Recchi is a joke, full stop. Savard deserves the credit for spinning that dross into gold.

Yes, Roy and Turgeon wanted to be moved---the latter, because the dumbass duo of Houle/Tremblay refused to accommodate his reasonable request to get the ice-time he deserved, despite having ample options for doing so; the former, because of his quick realization that Dumb and Dumber were now controlling les glorieux. And that they wanted to be moved doesn't explain why they were traded for the equivalent of bags of pucks (although Corson did have a good season and a half for us...whoo-ee. The fact is, merely Conroy for Corson is a stupid trade, never mind Turgeon).

Between those Reggie Houle throw-ins (Keane, Conroy---as if Turgeon and Roy weren't ENOUGH!) and his passion for simply dumping fine players like Odelein, Stevenson, Bure, Darcy Tucker, Donald Brashear, etc.., and getting garbage, or else nothing, back, I'd say Houle was a wonderful GM---for the Leafs.

[Edited on 2005/9/11 by Roo-AH! Roo-AH!]:

[Edited on 2005/9/11 by Roo-AH! Roo-AH!]

[beckham]

Sounds like you've been into those cocktails that Brashear and John Kordic showed you how to mix. Go easy on the wife and furniture......:eyes:

[JLP]

Originally posted by beckham

Sounds like you've been into those cocktails that Brashear and John Kordic showed you how to mix. Go easy on the wife and furniture......:eyes:

:?-

why make a personal attack and accuse a poster of beating his wife, I don't think the forum profits from this sort of post.

[PMAC]

Beckham: . You've made some reasonable points in the past and even if you tend to be negative, I have agreed with some of your assertions Eg., Kovalev's deal might be too long.

HOWEVER, Please give your head a shake. Your assertion that Houle was a good GM is astounding. He wasnt even competent. He traded one of the best goalies in the league(and in league history) and his best defensive forward (and CAPTAIN) for an inexperienced goalie, a mid-level talent(Ruchinsky), a player infamous for being an out of shape floater (Andrei Kovalenko).

Regardless of who wanted to go where, Houle had a duty to the franchise to wait and get the best possible deal. He panicked. If you trade top talent you have to get top talent back and Houle never did this: Not with Roy, not with Turgeon Not ever.

He had no experience, couldnt handle the pressure and should never, ever, been given the job.

I would say he would make the shortlist of top ten worst GM's in league history. As noted he gutted a competitive team and left a legacy that has taken the Habs until now to recover from.

Please tell me it was a joke to stir things up. PLease?

Regarding Marius C., JFJ is starting to remind me of Houle. He's picking up other teams cast-offs( at least even he isn't trading for them) and hoping the historic jersey will transform them into superior players. But to the point, are you seriously comparing their talent levels? When he is on Kovalev can dominate a game while MC is a second or third rate talent at best.

[Edited on 2005/9/11 by PMAC]

[BTH]

Slightly off-topic but I think Czerkawski was a great pick-up for the Leafs. They have absolutely no offense and a pretty weak 1st line. Allison, Czerkawski and whoever isn't a horrible second line. Before they had nothing. Since, Czerkawski is inconsistent, he might screw up but he's pretty much getting the league minimum so who cares. It's risk-free. It's like someone said: at $500,000 how can you go wrong?

This actually worries me. It will probably end up being a big factor for them this season and will make them jump a spot in the rankings (if he plays close to his Islander level).

He's a risky player but not at his salary.

[GuyRock70]

Originally posted by beckham

You guys conveniently forget he took over a team that the previous season had the worst record in 50 years in Montreal, I think. The team of "stars" that Savard put together (putting the team on the verge of bankruptcy) missed the playoffs and started the next year 0-5. That "great" team was a shambles of overpaid, overfed egos that was sucking up Molson's money like there was no tomorrow.

Serge Savard was FIRED, by his patron M. Corey and the fat drunk with the giant turd sized cigar popping out of his face has not been considered for another hockey job since. Reggie righted the ship, cut the payroll by half, got rid of that steroid driven time bomb Roy, made some terrific bargain free agent signings like Zholtok, Petrov, Bouillon etc. and still has a better record than the second "Savardian Stupidity" to hit Montreal, "Bon Homme" Andre.

A. Savard proceeded to undo all the good work that Houle had accomplished, jacked up the payroll and drove new owner Gillett to the verge of bankruptcy with inflated contracts given to a lot of local over the hill players. A. Savard is still hanging around only because Boivin gave him fat contract when he was G.M. and they want to get something for the money.

"Reggie righted the ship"?. Houle the best G.M. since Pollack"?. Are you out of your mind?. I have not read anything so utterly ridiculous in my life! The hiring of Reggie as our G.M. was probably the worst thing to happen to the team in modern history. One day he is selling beer for the Molson's, the next day he is running the Habs?. Don't get me wrong, Reggie was a good player for us and contributed to our success, but he had no business running a hockey team. The hiring of Tremblay as coach is inexcusible. This man, as well, had no business taking that job. I, (and EVERY habs fan I know), consider the Reggie years as the "Dark Years". All one needs to do is look at the trades, aquisitions ,and more importantly the record. It was a disaster!!. In closing, please show some respect and refrain from putting the name Houle in the same sentence as Pollack.

[Komisarek the Cruncher]

Please Beckham come back down to reality. You're the only one in the entire world that thinks that Houle was a great GM. In fact, its the first time I ear anybody say that he was not a disaster, never mind him being great.

I don't know what your smoking out there in BC, but it sure is great stuff!!!

[Trizzak]

Originally posted by Bulis_the_Habbie

Slightly off-topic but I think Czerkawski was a great pick-up for the Leafs. They have absolutely no offense and a pretty weak 1st line. Allison, Czerkawski and whoever isn't a horrible second line. Before they had nothing. Since, Czerkawski is inconsistent, he might screw up but he's pretty much getting the league minimum so who cares. It's risk-free. It's like someone said: at $500,000 how can you go wrong?

This actually worries me. It will probably end up being a big factor for them this season and will make them jump a spot in the rankings (if he plays close to his Islander level).

He's a risky player but not at his salary.

I'm just glad he's a leaf so Komisarek has 8 games to check Czerkawski through the boards :/)

[beckham]

Naw, Komisarek and Czerkawski are both Polacks, and both live in Long Island. I think they are good friends from the time they spent together.

[beckham]

Originally posted by Komisarek the Cruncher

Please Beckham come back down to reality. You're the only one in the entire world that thinks that Houle was a great GM.

I never said he was a "great" G.M., just underappreciated. A lot better than either of the Savards, though. They were plain awful. Reggie did as well or better than either of them with a lot less capital to work with. He didn't set out to trade any of those stars, each deal was forced on him. I think he did pretty well considering he was backed into a corner in every case. Jocelyn Thibault was 20 years old when Montreal acquired him and already had NHL experience. He was considered the top young goaltender around, was a top 10 draft pick and a WJC hero. He didn't pan out as expected over the long run, but he was better than Roy the first year after the trade, and a full 10 years younger. Rucinsky looked like Martin Havlat 10 years ago, and Kovalenko wasn't too shabby either. He was one of the top players on the Russian Olympic team, similar to Kovalev today.

Mybe you guys weren't around for that, but the Habs had one of the best records in the league in the games following the trade, made it back to the playoffs and were cooking with Rucinsky the hottest player in the league. He was injured for the year in one of the last games of the season and that really hurt the team in the playoffs.

[shortcat1]

On the money with your facts, beck. :/)

[Dalhabs]

I think a succesfull player in both the Russian national team and the club team is MORE than 10 times better than a player that is benched wherever he playes.

Czerkawski was benched in Montreal, I even think he was benched in NY Islanders after they got him back. This season he was benched in Djurgården in the swedish elite league.

Damn I'll even bet he has a hockeybench to sleep on at home.

btw. I think beckham has to be LINDEN_FAN from the espn montreal board. They act exactly the same. They read what all others on the board/forum thinks and then write the total oposite in a VERY agressive way like they want other to start bashing them. But its so lovely when they make a statement that makes no sense at all like saying that Houle was a good GM and that all our players suck and stuff like that. The team doesnt need these kind of fans!

[BTH]

Rucinsky plays for the Czech Repuclic. But he is still a star there. He just doesn't play as well in the NHL.

Another thing is that there were other trades too that might not be as easy to explain.

Turgeon was asking to leave and, I believe, was going to be a UFA next season anyway but still they didn't get anything near what they could have gotten.

Conroy/Corson deal was just ugly.

He also traded away Mike Keane, Lyle Odelein and others.

He traded Eric Desjardins and John LeClair for Mark Recchi and then traded Recchi back to the Flyers for Zubrus. They handed over the Flyers the big 3. And for nothing. It was Andre Savard who made that great trade with Washington so don't say that Houle helped by trading for Zubrus. Reggie probably would have traded him for future considerations or something.

He traded Captain Vincent Damphousse for a couple of not-so-great draft choices.

He lost Turner Stevenson to keep Iron Man Patrick Poulin.

And probably more. Bob Gainey is our best GM in a while. A. Savard wasn't great. The great trade he made for my favourite player wasn't really great at the time he made it though. Everyone wasn't sure. It looked pretty equal. He used the pick wisely but remember the Habs traded away a better pick then they received. So they would have gotten a higher choice than they used to get Perezhogin. They might have gotten a better player. Who knows?

Anyway, Savard also traded away Petrov for nothing. He lost Rucinsky, Brunet, Linden, Zubrus, Stevenson, Weinrich, Petrov and our entire old team for Zednik, Bulis, Perezhogin, Poulin and maybe a draft choice or two. Some of those guys might have left as FA though but that just attarcts attention to his bargaining skills.

Look at Rivet's contract. How about Brisebois's old contract. Now look at what Brisebois currently earns (okay, salary cap, blah, blah, blah!)

With Houle the Montreal Canadiens missed the playoffs 2 seaosns in a row for the first time in history. And then they missed them a third time. And he was given a considerably better team then he finished off with and handed over to Savard.

I just don't think it's right to say this guy was better than Serge Savard.

[BTH]

And about the Leafs getting stronger by signing Czerkawski.

They also just signed Brad Brown. Those are two good signings and it's much more possible for me to imegiina them as a playoff team now.

I'm not sure their payroll anymore though. Must be overflowing.

[GuyRock70]

Originally posted by beckham

Originally posted by Komisarek the Cruncher

Please Beckham come back down to reality. You're the only one in the entire world that thinks that Houle was a great GM.

I never said he was a "great" G.M., just underappreciated. A lot better than either of the Savards, though. They were plain awful. Reggie did as well or better than either of them with a lot less capital to work with. He didn't set out to trade any of those stars, each deal was forced on him. I think he did pretty well considering he was backed into a corner in every case. Jocelyn Thibault was 20 years old when Montreal acquired him and already had NHL experience. He was considered the top young goaltender around, was a top 10 draft pick and a WJC hero. He didn't pan out as expected over the long run, but he was better than Roy the first year after the trade, and a full 10 years younger. Rucinsky looked like Martin Havlat 10 years ago, and Kovalenko wasn't too shabby either. He was one of the top players on the Russian Olympic team, similar to Kovalev today.

Mybe you guys weren't around for that, but the Habs had one of the best records in the league in the games following the trade, made it back to the playoffs and were cooking with Rucinsky the hottest player in the league. He was injured for the year in one of the last games of the season and that really hurt the team in the playoffs.

I can't believe what I am reading. "Rucinsky was the hottest player in the league"?. What league are you talking about?. Kovalenko not too shabby?. He was useless. "Thibault better than Roy after the trade?. Who cares?. The Roy trade wrecked the team, along with all the other bonehead moves Reggie made. There is no way that you can possibly compare the records of Reggie vs Serge. The Habs winning percentage under Serge was more than respectable and playoff berths were a given as they sould be. The fact that we had to even worry about making the playoffs under Reggie was pathetic. Like I said before, the hiring of Houle, and consequently, Tremblay, was a terrible chapter in the teams history.

[BTH]

Actually people are worrying wether we make the playoffs this year.

...

People are also saying this is the best team since '93.

[Brett38]

Guys, I think we have to give some credit to Julien. He has this team finally playing good defence with a flare for some offence. I think Jarvis will only add another dimension to this. Gainey, of course, is the leader. He doesn't take shit and knows how to deal with the media.

[Capt.Crunch]

A lot of the decision houle made were horrible.

Period.

I think Beckham is just trolling,

On that note, I leave you with an interesting piece of anthology.

Canadiens acquire C Linden from Isles, sign him to 4-year deal

MONTREAL (Ticker) -- The Montreal Canadiens, who traded away leaders Mark Recchi and Vincent Damphousse during a rebuilding season, today acquired a character player, Trevor Linden, from the New York Islanders for the 10th pick in the upcoming draft.

The Canadiens then signed Linden to a four-year contract at undisclosed financial terms.

"I was thrilled," Linden said this afternoon via conference call. "The chance to come back to Canada was something that I value and I value playing in the city of Montreal. Part of the trade was me committing for four years, and that's what we did. A stipulation of Montreal acquiring me was to sign a new contract. There was no problem with that. Once we put our heads together, things happened quickly."

The 6-4, 210-pound Linden would have been eligible for unrestricted free agency after next season. Instead, the 29- year-old, who made $2.5 million in a one-year deal this season, decided to stay in Montreal for four seasons.

"We will have about the same payroll as last year,"

Canadiens general manager Rejean Houle said. "Letting go Damphousse and Recchi this year, we freed up some money. We would like to make our budget about the same.

"We hope that we'll sign (goaltender) Jeff Hackett and (defenseman) Stephane Quintal. By signing Trevor we feel that the message is clear and that we are showing we will compete with the other teams in the league."

Linden was a holdout from New York during training camp. By dealing him, the cost-conscious Islanders kept their payroll down and got a second pick in the top 10. Their own selection is fifth.

"The situation in New York is a tough one," Linden admitted before talking about what it means to wear the legendary Canadiens' sweater. "I equate playing for the Montreal Canadiens like playing in baseball for the New York Yankees. I've had a lot of my friends call me to congratulate me."

The Canadiens own the Philadelphia Flyers' second-round pick and Houle said there was little chance of Montreal making a trade to get back into the first round.

"I will see," he said. "When we acquired (Dainius) Zubrus, we acquired a first-round pick that already played two years in the NHL. We have Philadelphia's second pick this year, but I don't see how we will get a first-round pick this year."

With the departures of Damphousse, the former captain, and Recchi, Linden would appear to be a good candidate to wear the "C" fo the Canadiens. He was the long-time captain of the Vancouver Canucks and served in the same role during his stint on Long Island.

Linden was acquired from the Canucks in February 1998 for left wing Todd Bertuzzi, defenseman Bryan McCabe and a 1998 third-round pick. He played all 82 games last season but put up a disappointing 47 points on 18 goals and 29 assists. He was minus-14 in his 11th NHL season.

Coach Alain Vigneault is not yet sure about Linden's role with his new club.

"Trevor's an outstanding hockey player that's going to bring a lot to our team," Vigneault said. "I (spoke) briefly with Trevor earlier this afternoon, but we have not discussed his role with this team. He's played a lot of different positions and he's used to it. We will use him in a lot of different places."

In 1997-98, Linden combined for 17 goals and 21 assists in 67 games. He spent his first nine seasons with Vancouver and served as captain from 1991 until stepping aside in favor of Mark Messier on the eve of the 1997-98 season opener.

Linden, who also served as president of the NHL Players Association, remains second on the Canucks' all time scoring list with 247 goals and 322 assists in 702 games. In 809 NHL games, he has 275 goals and 358 assists.

His stats on the next two season would become:

1999-00 50 13 17 30 -3

2000-01 57 12 21 33 -2

Now that was an overrated player if there was one:

1998:

Canucks get: Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan McCabe and 3rd round pick (Jarkko Ruutu)

Islanders get: Trevor Linden

1999:

Islanders get: 1st round pick (Branislav Mezei)

Montreal get: Trevor Linden

2001:

Washington gets: Trevor Linden, Dainius Zubrus and 2nd pick (became Andreas Holmqvist at Tampa Bay)

Montreal gets: Richard Zednik, Jan Bulis and 1st pick (Perezhogin)

2002:

Vancouver gets: Trevor Linden and 2nd choice (2002) (Denis Grot)

Washington gets: 1st pick 2002 (Boyd Gordon) and 3rd pick 2003 (nobody cares)

damn... he sure made people move

[beckham]

When the Canucks made the deal for Linden, they were 5th from the bottom in the NHL standings. At the time of the trade, the price for Linden was a top 5 pick.

Houle got Linden for the 10th pick in a terrible draft (1999), when Trevor was 4 years younger.

[bombTHEice]

Originally posted by beckham

Naw, Komisarek and Czerkawski are both Polacks, and both live in Long Island. I think they are good friends from the time they spent together.

Häh, have I missed something?

They're good friends because Komi grewed up on Long Isaland and Czerkawski played there? And both are from Poland? :guru: