Habs' Big Tax Burden

[JLP]

Old problem now goes to court.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=135781

All I can say is, the city of Montreal is NOT using this $8 mil to repair its roads. It appears that with the cap all teams will be spending about the same, so the Habs won't suffer on the ice -- who gets hurt is George Gillette, right?

I read once that the Habs pay more taxes than all the other NHL teams combined. Hope this gets reduced somewhat, because what's bad for Gillette can't be good for the Habs.

[simonus]

how much tax should the habs pay?

[JLP]

Originally posted by simonus

how much tax should the habs pay?

Well, I understand that Montreal and Quebec have high taxes and it's not only the Habs who have to pay them. But I think to be fair the city should look at what other hockey teams in the NHL are paying and make the Habs' bill something similar, to ensure the Habs' health.

Consider that there are so many spinoff benefits and revenues generated by the team, everything from sports bars to parking to merchandizing and so on. Plus with no other major league sports team in the city the Habs are the main sports ambassadors for Montreal elsewhere in North America and the throughout the world, so this has to help with tourism as well, which provides an important source of revenue for Montreal during the otherwise slow winter months.

By crippling the team with abnormally high taxes Montreal risks shooting itself in the foot.

[beckham]

First "Bon Homme" Andre Savard throws Gillett's American dollars away like fake snowflakes at Carnival on homeboys Audette, Juneau, Traverse, Brisebois etc. (fortunately the two biggest free agent flops in recent history, Turgeon and Lapointe turned him down), then the municipal and state governments squeeze poor George for ridiculous taxes.

[Edited on 2005/9/10 by beckham]

[simonus]

it is quebec, we have taxes. Quebec had taxes before Gillett bought the team. Everybody else in quebec pay taxes. Gillett knew the deal when he bought the team. He fills the arena (that was built with some government subsidy) every night, Forbes still ranks the habs as the 10th most profitable franchise in the league. With a salary cap in place i dont really worry about his ability to make money. Don't forget about savard tossing money as Craig Rivet.

Damnit

[Edited on 9/10/2005 by simonus]

[TheBigRedC]

I saw on TSN that 23 teams do not pay property taxes. It is unfair. Montreal has an amazing team now and in the past. The Canadiens have done alot for that city. Montreal/quebec should cut them some slack. Im not saying they get rid of the tax, but 8 million, give them a break.

[wutabi]

Most (all?) of those 23 teams are American. We pay taxes for our quality of life. That said, Quebec need only look at the Nordiques to understand the value of a club to the city (and losing the Habs would be 10-fold worse). Alberta recently changed laws to provide funds from the provincial sports lottery to its sports teams. Perhaps the habs (and leafs, sens, and canucks) should be lobbying for something similar.

[simonus]

I don't think quebec (or ontario) should be in the business of imitating alberta's political structure. Frankly, quebec would be better off as a society if they burned down the casino and ended the lottery. The poor are taxed enough.

I actually like going to the casino, but i don't think ive seen any non-quebec license plates in the parking lot.

I think there is 100 times less chance of the habs leaving than the nordiques. First there are the board of governors. Then there is that bell centre, which gillett also owns, that would make a little less cash if the habs werent there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt gillett get give some no-move concessions when he bought the team. Also... oh yeah! The habs are one of the more profitable teams in the league. Enough to mention quebec city, how are the whalers (from tax-heavy connecticut) doing in carolina? How are those jets doing in phoenix? The southern experiment hasnt worked too well and there arent a lot of cities with greener grass than montreal clamoring for a team.

I love the canadiens as much as anybody on the forum, but I don't see why scoring goals should exempt you from the laws that all of us follow. 8 mil is real money for the province, how many doctors is that? How many investigation could we fund to look into Jose's family? , even if they just wanted to buy a hot hamburger for every person in the province I wouldnt be too bothered.

[kaos]

Not only do the Americans for the most part not pay property tax on their facilities, but they are mostly built with taxpayer funds, and not privatley funded like ours.

Much like residental and other commercial buildings, the Bell Center is taxed based on location, size ect.

We as Canadiens are overtaxed and the Bell Center is no exception. If you drop the $8 Million to say $6 Million or whatever figure you want, you still have to generate that tax revenue somewhere, or make budget cuts and that means the taxpayer suffers and that isn't right. If the Bell Center is appraised at the $8 Million mark then thats what Gillet should pay. He knew that before he bought the team. It sucks, but its Canada.

[Zowpeb]

The only problem I have with property taxes the Habs are charged is that, I believe(correct me if I'm wrong), the Habs pay a higher then normal property tax for their facility.

If the organization pays an abnormally large amount of taxes then it's clear the government has singled out a profitible business entity. This is wrong ethically, morally and legally IMHO.

Why should one business be taxed more then others???

Not only that, if you think we(and our businesses) don't pay too much taxes you are off your rocker. The federal and provincial governments waste billions of tax dollars every year...yay taxes...we have a giant surplus every year now...yay taxes...how about those scandals...yay taxes. Bleh.

How about we cut the GST, cut some bloody gas taxes AND give business a tax break so they don't bloody well move to China/Mexico/Taiwan.

And oh yeah, we should start allowing a regulated two tiers for our health care system. It's basically here already anyhow...

[simonus]

i totally agree about cutting the GST... its a regressive tax and thats bad... Considering the escalation in pump prices, it wouldnt be the worst thing to cut the gas tax.... but 2 tier health? why? Poor people to the back of the line?

The economy has been doing pretty well for a while now... I see no immediate need to start pandering to business...

As to the bell centre being irregularly taxed, I have really no idea. I'm curious as to the formula they used. Does anybody know the name of the case they came before the court the last time? I have lexis-nexis and can search canadian law archives and get down to the bottom of both sides' arguments so there can be less conjecture.

[JLP]

Originally posted by simonus

I don't think quebec (or ontario) should be in the business of imitating alberta's political structure. Frankly, quebec would be better off as a society if they burned down the casino and ended the lottery. The poor are taxed enough.

I'm down with that. The Lotto machines in cheap bars, makes me sad to see welfare people pumping their money into those. Simonous, didn't know you were a socialist!

But like I wrote above, the Habs generate a lot of spinoff tax revenue, we should look at the big picture.

BTW, I also bemoan the recent emergence of a two-tiered health care system in Qc. But I blame the CMA for capitulating to loud and greedy doctors. They get their medical school training dirt cheap in Quebec, since university education is so heavily subsidised, but then they turn around and want to get paid like Americans.

Anyway, back to the Habs -- I still believe the Montreal/Qc gov'ts should look at the big picture, the Habs are, end of the day, damn good for Montreal, and a cultural tradition as well. How much government money has been pumped into, say, Bombardier, or Place des Arts for the same reason?

The Habs are a part of the soul of many Montrealers/Quebecois.

:que::ghg::que:

[sakukoivumc11]

Don't feel bad when you see the welfare recipients pumping money into machines as they have a lot of it !! I am a welfare fraud investigator in Ontario and they all scam the system like crazy, so when you hear someone say "Oh poor person, they are on welfare", don't worry about it as they live o.k. They receive their rent money plus groceries and than on the 20th receive a big fat Baby bonus cheque to last them the month. the difference between them and us is that they don't want to work and are happy with their movie, case of beer and their movie rental. Other people have goals and dreams like a new house, car and children. We envision the future and what we could do. Anyways enough of that as I am feeling a bit like Beckham except I am not bashing the Habs...lol....talking stupid but not bashing the Habs.

What was this thread about anyways ??

[JLP]

Originally posted by sakukoivumc11

the difference between them and us is that they don't want to work and are happy with their movie and case of beer

"difference"?

[simonus]

Originally posted by sakukoivumc11

Don't feel bad when you see the welfare recipients pumping money into machines as they have a lot of it !!

A lot of money? Really? How much are we talking about here?

So basically, your argument is that since we give them money, they should pump it back into the lottery system?

the difference between them and us is that they don't want to work and are happy with their movie, case of beer and their movie rental. Other people have goals and dreams like a new house, car and children. We envision the future and what we could do.

what percentage of welfare recipients are we talking about? 5%, 90%? Certainly not everybody on welfare are lifetime cases that have no ambition and cheat and lie. I worry that your perception might be a little skewed by the fog of war. Your job is to investigate fraudulant welfare recipients, you don't get to investigate the non-fraudulant ones for the most part.

BTW - not a socialist, just NDP

[JLP]

Originally posted by simonus

not a socialist, just NDP

I don't want to split hairs but the NDP are part of the Socialist International.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democratic_Party

BTW, I'm from a time when "socialist" and "liberal" were good words!

[Edited on 12-9-05 by JeanLucPilon]

[simonus]

fair enough, then i accept your classification.

I just mean that i believe in democracy and usually private enterprise

[sakukoivumc11]

All I am saying is that over 90 % of cases has some form of fraud. They spend our money and than cry that they have none. Hence the reason they come in with bogus allegations of lost and stolen money, requests for a new bed or fridge....etc. etc.

[simonus]

90% of all cases or 90% of investigated cases. Is this personal observation or statistically proven?

Is the 90% proven fraud or accused fraud? Are people who live in poor, bad neighbourhoods not at greater risk of theft?

Not directly trying to attack you, but I dont really understand your argument. Certainly not as it pertains to the canadiens share of the provincial tax burden.

[Zowpeb]

Originally posted by simonus

i totally agree about cutting the GST... its a regressive tax and thats bad... Considering the escalation in pump prices, it wouldnt be the worst thing to cut the gas tax.... but 2 tier health? why? Poor people to the back of the line?

The economy has been doing pretty well for a while now... I see no immediate need to start pandering to business...

As to the bell centre being irregularly taxed, I have really no idea. I'm curious as to the formula they used. Does anybody know the name of the case they came before the court the last time? I have lexis-nexis and can search canadian law archives and get down to the bottom of both sides' arguments so there can be less conjecture.

I have no problem with paying a sales tax on many items. However, there are a LOT of items that it should be removed from...including gas, food and many of our "big ticket" items such as cars(and don't get me started on used cars, "let's get someone to pay the tax AGAIN").

As for our current level of gas taxes...the increased cost of gas and the fact we pay GST means the government has increased it's tax revenue incredibly over the past 5-10 years...FAR more then the general rate of inflation. So they should be dropped...I'm waiting for armed revolution over taxes and gas prices...don't think it can't happen.

A 2 tier health system would not put poor people "at the back of the line". That is the biggest myth running. A properly run 2 tier system would still largely be the same as we see now...the only major difference is that we would allow for more private organizations, hospitals, long term care, etc to cater people who either a) have the money to spend on these things or B) can't afford to wait 6 months for an MRI, or some other test. In fact, a strong argument could be made that it would ease the pressure on the public system thus shortening wait times and less users would also mean more money alotted on a per patient basis. And no, I'm not advocating that private users would get tax breaks if they used private facilities.

The other big myth is that rich people would get better doctors. Currently our best doctors leave the country anyways...so the current level of skill from our doctors would largely remain unchanged. Many of the "rich" people who would like to use private health care will actually travel to the US anyhow...at least we'd keep the revenue and doctors within our own country.

Anyone that doesn't recognize health care HAS FAILED, and isn't just failing, in Canada has bought into the myths perpetuated by the NDP, leftist Liberals and their ilk.