Defending Houle

[Athlétique.Canadien]

Nope, not Reggies fault. I am going to criticize Montreal’s Harold Ballard (IMO) - Ronald Corey.

Many of the pundits in this forum have painted the recent demise of the Canadiens in the late 90’s to be the result of Rejean Houle & some of his moves. The firing of Serge Savard & Jacques Demers was a dark day for Montreal. Some may claim the firings were justified but the solution was truly goofy.

First off, let’s go back to where this all began, the hiring of Houle & Tremblay. Ultimately this led to the loss of Patrick Roy. Followed quickly by Mike Keane being part of the package which landed Thibault, Kovalenko & Rucinsky. Another very questionable move was dumping Turner Stevenson because 2 million was too expensive in Houle’s eyes. Then he acquires Jim Campbell for 1.6??? Odelein for Richer??? The trade of Recchi for Zubrus??? Carbonneau to St. Louis in exchange for Jim Montgomery??? Pat Jablonski for Jean-Jacques Daigneault??? Pierre Turgeon, Craig Conroy and Rory Fitzpatrick for Shayne Corson and Murray Baron??? Jocelyn Thibeault and Dave Manson for Jeff Hackett and Eric Weinrich??? UFA’s PJ Stock, Barry Richter, Darryl Shannon, Enrico Ciccone & Eric Bertrand???

Let’s face it, all of these moves when mentioned collectively do paint Houle as a buffoon. But, that isn’t entirely fair. Houle was not the main architect of what happened to Montreal. Ronald Corey is the true navigator of mediocrity. Why? Simple. The reason Houle made silly trades was because of Molson. The Molson Centre (Now Bell) created a financial deficit that caused Molson to ponder their involvement with the team. They chose to shore up the losses by freezing the salary at 32 million US until a buyer could be found. Now, I don’t care how dumb a GM is, when you have a payroll frozen in this manner, it is difficult to maneuver decently. It wasn’t Houle’s fault that he was handcuffed. It was Ronald Corey’s for creating this financial nightmare which still haunts the team today with the tax burden. I still ask to this day what the emergency was to close the Forum. Yeah, we needed a new building but instead of exercizing options and negotiating with the city they went full steam ahead. If indeed it was about obtaining revenue than why create a situation where you are paying 11 million a year in taxes to the province & the city? What could Houle have done with that money? How about retain Recchi for starters. Damphousse could have stayed as well but once again, this was a money shortfall.

This has got to be blamed on Corey. Let us remember that Ward, Ryder, Ribeiro, Hainsey & Markov were drafted under Houle’s regime. Also, to trade Malakov & get Souray in return was significant. These positives don’t outweigh the negatives but when the subject of Houle comes up, these acquisitions seem to be unappreciated or not mentioned. Now, getting back to giving Houle the benefit of the doubt & laying the blame on Corey I call your attention to the Roy trade. It was Corey who stubbornly sat right by the bench. We’ll never know the answer to this but had he not been sitting there...?

Plus, if it was Tremblay’s fault – well, who hired him? And who hired the guy who hired him? How about the loss of Mike Keane? The big mess about him being unable to speak French. Where was the President then? Why didn’t he defend him? It’s clear Boivin would have. He came out to support Theodore 2 years ago. Perhaps history will show that dumping Serge was a good move. There were many who abored the Dionne, LeClair & Desjardins for Recchi & Lamb trade. That was a foolish move. However, nature abores a vacuum & Corey did everything that an idiot could do to create this mess. So, go ahead & blame Houle for building a shaky house. But remember the building supplier sold him rotten wood.

I'm not saying Reggie is totally innocent but rememebr some of these facts. Please respond with your opinions.

GO HABS GO

:hlogo:

[Brett38]

Great post and very interesting. You certainly remember the facts. I have said to my buddies for some time that Corey should take some...most...of the blame, not Houle.

We only discussed this point a couple of weeks ago.

Lets put that behind us and look forward. Its a new Era!!!!!

[kaos]

When assinging blame, I think Houle and Corey go hand in hand...neither more culpable than the other. Either way neither of them should ever have been in the position they were in.

As for Mike Keane....his days were numbered when he said he didn't need to speak french after being given the captaincy. That marked the end of his time in Montreal.

[beckham]

First off, let’s go back to where this all began, the hiring of Houle & Tremblay. Ultimately this led to the loss of Patrick Roy. Followed quickly by Mike Keane being part of the package which landed Thibault, Kovalenko & Rucinsky. Another very questionable move was dumping Turner Stevenson because 2 million was too expensive in Houle’s eyes. Then he acquires Jim Campbell for 1.6??? Odelein for Richer??? The trade of Recchi for Zubrus??? Carbonneau to St. Louis in exchange for Jim Montgomery??? Pat Jablonski for Jean-Jacques Daigneault??? Pierre Turgeon, Craig Conroy and Rory Fitzpatrick for Shayne Corson and Murray Baron??? Jocelyn Thibeault and Dave Manson for Jeff Hackett and Eric Weinrich??? UFA’s PJ Stock, Barry Richter, Darryl Shannon, Enrico Ciccone & Eric Bertrand?

Roy was loaded up on 'roids and a few other illicit substances. He was a time bomb waiting to go off. Thibault was 10 years younger, a top 10 draft pick who was considered best young goalie in the game at the time. The first year after the trade, Thibault had better numbers than Roy. Kovalenko was a 30 goal scorer, and Rucinsky had a brilliant year in Montreal the first season after the deal. He averaged over a point a game and was the hottest forward in the league prior to being injured in the final game of the regular season. Houle and Trembley completely turned around the team that season and except for the injury to Rucinsky would have gone far in the playoffs.

Jim Campbell never made $1.6 million a season in his career. Where did you pull that little gem from?:?- As I recall it was about $ 400 k per year. Also they brought in Oleg Petrov, Sergei Zholtok, Francis Bouillon, Karl Dykhuis and a few others for next to nothing. Odelein was nothing special, and Richer had his moments in Montreal. Anytime you can trade an undersized stay at home grunt for a potential 50 goal scorer, it is worth the risk.

Recchi was on the verge of free agency and the Habs didn't have the money to resign him. Getting a 20 year old Zubrus with the potential he had PLUS a first round draft pick (Perezhogin) was a brilliant deal. Also Damphousse who was in the same situation, for a 1st (Hossa), 2nd and 3rd round picks. Houle got way more for those two than they had to pay for Kovalev (Balej and a 2nd round pick) and Bonk (3rd round pick and exchange of backup goalies).

You have a few correct facts scattered through your assessment, but they are very selective and usually far from complete. Also numerous errors that paint a far different picture than the reality at the time. I sure hope you aren't a lawyer, I would feel sorry for anyone you were hired to "defend".:idea:

[Rooster]

Roy was loaded up on 'roids? That's news to me, tell us more.

It's a good thing that the time bomb didn't go off while he was in Colorado.

[kaos]

Originally posted by beckham

You have a few correct facts scattered through your assessment, but they are very selective and usually far from complete. Also numerous errors that paint a far different picture than the reality at the time. I sure hope you aren't a lawyer, I would feel sorry for anyone you were hired to "defend".:idea:

Beckham considering the complete bullshit you write sometimes, including this posting, you shouldn't be saying that about another person.

Roy was loaded up on 'roids and a few other illicit substances? Where'd you get that crap? He wasn't a timebomb waiting to go off. Trembley was a complete ###### and had no idea how to coach a superstar like Patrick Roy.... when a guys having an off night, you don't allow him to get pounded for 11 goals or whatever it was. You pull him after 4 or so, and save him some face.

Everybody at the time knew Kovalenko was a tank with no work ethic. The 30 goals was a suprise. What wasn't a suprise was the stats he put up after that including playing only 3 full years in the last decade. He was a bum....another bum brought in by Corey et all.

Rucinsky did have a great half year or so playing with Damphouse, and had a few 20 goal years. Was a solid two way player prone to massive offensive slumps.

Definitley the best of the 3 they got in return for Roy and Keane. Thats a piss poor trade and only you could possibly defend it. That trade alone set Montreal back 5 or 6 years when Theodore started playing well, and became their next true #1 goalie. Hackett wasn't a number 1 goalie.

Petrov, Zholtok, Bouillon and Dykhuis were/are bums and don't deserve to paid more than the league minimum. Its no suprise Petrov and Dykhuis are not in the league anymore, cause they had about as much talent at their respective positions as Tremley and Houle and Corey had at theirs....which is none.

Zubrus was a plug, and everybody knew he was a was of a talent. The only people dumber at the time of the trade to the Capitals were the Washington Capitals

As for Jim Campbell who the hell cares how much he made...he was a plug as well

And as for Richer...he was a plug... Two 50 goal seasons does not make a career. There was a reason Burns got rid of him in the first place and thats because he has a piss poor work ethic. But it was all about the past glory with Houle, Trembley and Corey... lets make it all french canadien and everything will be alright....BUMS....their all bums and they were lucky to get that 1st round pick which turned out to be Perezhogin....hopefully he develops into a solid player so the stink of the previous administration can be wiped from the memory of this proud franchise. Zednik happened to be a nice find as well, and the jury is still out on Bulis.

So in ending this post I can pretty much quote you

"You have a few correct facts scattered through your assessment, but they are very selective and usually far from complete. Also numerous errors that paint a far different picture than the reality at the time. I sure hope you aren't a lawyer, I would feel sorry for anyone you were hired to "defend". :?-

[Edited on 2005/9/27 by kaos]

[Athlétique.Canadien]

That's OK. I am new here. I have read many posts and I'm not surprised that the harsh criticism came from Beckham. I mean, why should he alter his form? I hope he's not in charge of building moral for the Habs.

[Leafs Suck]

Recchi was on the verge of free agency and the Habs didn't have the money to resign him. Getting a 20 year old Zubrus with the potential he had PLUS a first round draft pick (Perezhogin) was a brilliant deal.

Montreal Canadiens traded Mark Recchi to the Philadelphia Flyers for Dainius Zubrus, a 2nd round selection (Matt Carkner) in 1999 and a 6th round selection (previously acquired - Scott Selig) in 2000.

[Brett38]

One good thing about Houle. He was on the ice when Lambert scored that goal in game seven of the 1979 Semi-Finals. Trembley got an assist and I think Houle got the other assist.

Only seems like yesterday that happened!

Oh, Bye the way...Henderson scored in game Eight in 1972, 35 years ago tomorrow!

[Howie_Morenz]

I will defend Houle the hockey player as I was him in streetball games

I will not defend him as the GM as it was an unforgettable time for me. The pain............

I will defend Trembley the hockey player as he was another habs Hero of mine.

I will not defend Trembley the horrible coach that cost us Roy and Brasher. Trembley the tough guy lost the room and we lost good players.

I will not defend Corey the penny pincher at all.

I will also not go back to that time again as it was tough for the organization. Bob Gainey will help us get to the Stanley Cup, as just getting into the playoffs is not enough!

:ghg:

[Edited on 2005/9/27 by Howie_Morenz]

[PMAC]

All I have to say is yes: Corey f***ed up hiring those two to take over the team, but I can't believe that finances had that much to do with Houles decisions. If that were the case why was he always throwing young, cheap players into deals like we had a wealth of prospects.

AAAARGH

I dont ever want to even think of the Dark years again regardless of whose fault it was

All hail Andre and Bob:bow::bow::bow::bow:

and give thanks

[shortcat1]

Originally posted by kaos

Petrov, Zholtok, Bouillon and Dykhuis were/are bums and don't deserve to paid more than the league minimum. [Edited on 2005/9/27 by kaos]

I know I should leave this alone but for the sake of the following player (and another post), I've got to say that Bouillon is by no means a bum.

He's one of the best 6th or 7th defensemen in the league. He's a heart player who gives his all every shift, every game. This is what TSN.ca's bios on players says about him.

Assets - Demonstrates good work ethic and doesn't shy away from anyone--despite his small stature. Has solid puck-handling skills. Can log a lot of ice time.

Flaws - Doesn't produce enough points. Has trouble handling big forwards in front of the net. Will always be under constant scrutiny because of his small frame.

Career potential - No. 6 or 7 defenseman.

So there! Na-na-na!!

[Leafs Suck]

Excuses.

Houle was an idiot GM, plain and simple. Probably a really nice guy, definitely a great player, just a terrible GM. I don't care what excuses people use. Try and justify it all you want cuz he happened to luck out that Michael Ryder turned out to be a great player.

He ruined the franchise. It took some good moves by Savard and some great ones by Gainey to bring this team back to respectability.

[Edited on 2005/9/28 by Leafs Suck]

[beckham]

[

Montreal Canadiens traded Mark Recchi to the Philadelphia Flyers for Dainius Zubrus, a 2nd round selection (Matt Carkner) in 1999 and a 6th round selection (previously acquired - Scott Selig) in 2000.

But they dealt Zubrus and Linden for Zednik, Bulis and the 1st which was used to take Perezhogin.

Obviously, Houle couldn't expect instant parity on his deals, he was trading 30 year olds in the prime of their careers, earning anywhere from 5 to 8 million dollars a year, for young kids and draft picks who earned a tenth of that. He had no choice. Molsons wasn't willing to spend the money.

He did his job cut the payroll by $10 million per season and still managed to feild a competitive team. NOT TO MENTION THE STRING OF FREAK INJURIES. Three of the four seasons he was at the helm, the team suffered near record lost time to injuries. Despite all of those handicaps, HE HAD A BETTER RECORD THAN SAVARD, who was allowed to spend as much as he wanted and had relatively healthy teams.

I don't know where you guys were during this period, but you obviously weren't following the Habs. As for Roy, he has a string of incidents that smack of substance abuse and bailed out of the Olympics where they test for those things. There were dozens and possibly hundreds of NHL players using banned substances to help their game. Don't fool yourselves.

[PMAC]

Roy won two Stanley Cups with the Avs--

Habs went on to string of their worst seasons since the 30's

END of story. It doesnt matter the circumstances. There were good cheap players available if Houle had the ability to find them.

The acquision of Roy and Keane was the key piece of the puzzle. I dont care what PR was doing, when or with or to whom. Houle should have gotten better value and he would have if he hadn't panicked and rushed into a stupid deal. Also, no matter what Keane's status as captain he was a valuable player and should not have been included in that dea!!! Roy alone was too much for what we got back.Under Houle the Habs were a laughingstock-- a joke in the NHL like the worst of Ballalard's Maple Laughs. :mad::mad:

We're just lucky that new management was able to clean up his mess this quickly.

[beckham]

The team's overall record under Houle was as good or better than it has been in the years since he left. This year the Habs are predicted to finish 17th overall by the Vegas odds makers, which is lower than their average finish under Houle. I certainly don't see any great improvements happening despite the fact they have new ownership and a much larger budget to work with.

[kaos]

Originally posted by beckham

The team's overall record under Houle was as good or better than it has been in the years since he left. This year the Habs are predicted to finish 17th overall by the Vegas odds makers, which is lower than their average finish under Houle. I certainly don't see any great improvements happening despite the fact they have new ownership and a much larger budget to work with.

This is just a load of crap.

Who cares what the Vegas odds makes say?

Montreal has since won as many playoff series as under the Houle regime, and that includes a lost season in which they could have won another???

I recall that Montreal missed the playoffs twice in the 3 years immediatley after Houle left, because they (Houle, Corey, and a succession of their coaches destroyed the team. That is a fact.

Since then, Savard and Gainey have turned the team around to winning a playoff series, putting prospects in the system, and icing a competive team that true Montreal Canadiens fans (unlike Beckham) are actually excited about and anxious to watch after the long lockout.

[beckham]

Pretty well all the prospects who have played in recent times, aside from Komisarek, were drafted by Houle.

[Howie_Morenz]

Originally posted by beckham

Pretty well all the prospects who have played in recent times, aside from Komisarek, were drafted by Houle.

Pretty well all the crap we have had to deal with now is a direct result of Houle's usefull time. - Loss of Roy, Keen, Brasher for nothing of equal value. Trading away of picks. Stupid trades, believing in Tremblay fresh out of the announcers booth with no coaching experience.

Looks to me he was not as impressive as you might believe as hard times are still at hand.

[BTH]

I disagree with Beckham but Howie Morenz.....

One minute you say Gainey turned us into a winning team with greta prospects and the next we're "dealing with all this crap". Are you happy with our team or not?

[beckham]

[i

Pretty well all the crap ..... Trading away of picks. .... Tremblay fresh out of the announcers booth with no coaching experience.

Well at least we know you're a "crap" expert. Houle left A.Savard with 5 or 6 extra draft picks when he turned over the reins. Also, it was Corey who hired Trembley, not Houle. Trembley and Houle were hired at the same time since both jobs were vacant.

Get your facts straight before you pop off.

[Howie_Morenz]

Not an expert like you beckham with your wise and pungent posts.

This trade was one of my favorite Houle Deals. Guys he considered were good and cost a second rounder. Never thought Weinrich was all that good anyway and Turner Stevenson went on to win a Stanley CUP.

http://slam.canoe.ca/HockeyNHLDraft00/jun23_whe.html

So yes there were draft pick trades and we got cash for one trade a whole $1USD. Yes under Houle there were some potential good draft picks but when you look at the Canadiens draft pick history, uh its OK, nothing special yet. Plus was it him or Savard that had the most influence on the picks; do you have inside info to share?

Montreal's Great and Dubious Draft history, you decide:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr000045.html

As for Gainey he is doing good things already. Just being a steady force at the top of the team and standing up for players. Plus he recognizes the clubs needs, Price, Latendresse. Obviously he wants the team to be bigger and knows Jose will be relaced one day. According to you Price is the replacement already.

Just the facts O-Wise one:bow:

[Howie_Morenz]

Originally posted by Bulis_the_Habbie

I disagree with Beckham but Howie Morenz.....

One minute you say Gainey turned us into a winning team with greta prospects and the next we're "dealing with all this crap". Are you happy with our team or not?

Sorry about not responding to you already Bulis_the_Habbie. I believe the team may win enough games to squeek into 5th overall in the conference, mostly on the back of Jose. I am not blown away by the defense past Souray and Markov.

There is potential with some of the young forwards which is exciting as they are not just checking forwards. Chipchura, a Gainey pick I thought would really press for a spot. At first it also looked like most of the forwards were going to impress us. Alas some opted to have me put my foot in my mouth with my enthusiasm. I'm in hope that Streit can adjust as I believe he can help the team move the puck to the forwards quickly. Late round Gainey pick I believe. So far to me Hainsey has looked slightly better.

I know I quickly jumped on the blame Houle side the other day and do apologise. The Houle then Savard GM era was just not my favorite.

Gainey picking Price and Latendresse makes the organization much better. Gainey also sticks up for the players and will make trades that benefit the team, not his job.

[~moeman]

Bang on!!! Houle may have been weak and out of place as a GM but corey is a pathetic sack that should be blamed for much of the Habs misery. Sure, Roy was a jerk when he went after Tremblay but corey did not have the balls or brains to keep him a habs. if he did we'd be closer to 30 cups than waiting for #25. corey is almost as disgusting as ballard (minus the sex and crime scandals)

[PMAC]

Beckham, I didnt sayy that they cleaned up the mess quickly. I said "this quickly" meaning that it hasnt taken BG years to ice a competitive team--not that the turn-around has taken place over-night. And if you are going to quote unreliable sources why not quote sportsnet predicting the Habs for 5th place.