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Mar. 13, Habs vs Flames, 7 PM


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10 hours ago, Chris said:

Ill take the sens situation over the habs. At least they have legit real talent. What it turns into is the question. 

 

The habs are just older with really bad contracts 


This is why it’s a good thing you have nothing to do with making decision for the Habs organization. Go prefer the Sens situation. Go enjoy it. 

 

 

9 hours ago, brobin said:


it is no guarantee but talent is talent.., the leafs are loaded.. Edmonton is loaded...

 

you still need to find solid goaltending and depth players and IMO, He is capable of that.. what is missing is top tier talent and unless you really get lucky, it is generally found in top picks.

 

Frankly, if they tanked they would still fill the barn... at least for a year or two... 

 

all that said, you have to draft well and trade assets well to be successful at that. Instead, he took a mediocre team and is treading water... this summer was better versus his previous years of finding fourth liners, but I don’t think we have a single player that would crack the leafs top line.


There really is no coherent advice being given within this post. 
 

Why do some people bring up the draft every losing streak? I had to go all the way back to Matthews, McDavid, Mackinnon, Stamkos (2008) and Patrick Kane in 2007 to find any meaningful 1st overall picks. In fact, Stamkos/Kane are the only meaningful picks that have actually accomplished anything as a 1st overall pick.  

 

Matthews is the most recent pick and 4-5 years later, the Leafs have still accomplished nothing.

 

What have the Sabres, Edmonton, Toronto, Florida or New Jersey accomplished thanks to their amazing positions in the recent draft? How about the New York Rangers? Oh, but I understand that some people would probably “prefer their situation” regardless of the reality that they have accomplished squat since 1994 as well.

 

If we were to “tank”, as you literally suggested in your post, the evidence shows, that nothing would come out of it for another 5+ years. In my opinion, Colorado is the closest to be coming out of the mole hill, and there’s still nothing close to guaranteed for them.

 

The Habs have been a “middling team”. You can’t just have everything you said a team needs, goaltending, solid depth, and tank simultaneously. You have to actually be a bad team.

 

What I am hearing is that we should expect the Habs to have the best of both worlds, “decent team, but tanking with high draft capabilities”, which is simply an irrational thought.
 

What’s even more worrisome is that some of you have already been dreaming of this situation for 5+ years. It’s mind boggling from a neutral standpoint.

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I have to laugh a bit. This team is three points ahead of Calgary with one game in hand for the fourth playoff spot in the division after 30 games, and people are talking about tanking and blowing it up 🤪 

 

The team has a problem at D for sure. It remains possible that this need be addressed. Let’s see if this group can manage to gradually improve under Ducharme. And remember that right now, this is a playoff team.

 

Beyond that, I am not a believer in tanking at all. Someone said the Oil are stacked. They have two great players for sure; and they have absolutely sucked ass for most of the decade, going through high picks like Taylor Swift goes through boyfriends. There are plenty of examples of tank jobs that yield terrible outcomes. And as I’ve noted many times, the Habs have done the equivalent of ‘tank drafts’ twice in the past decade, getting the 3rd overall pick. The results were...Kotkaniemi and Alex Galchenyuk. Excuse me for not thinking those picks were magic carpet rides to Cup-dom. Besides, the same people calling for tank jobs would be calling for the GM’s head when, four years later, the team is still a bottom-feeding suction eel putting out terrible hockey night after night. Forget it.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I have to laugh a bit. This team is three points ahead of Calgary with one game in hand for the fourth playoff spot in the division after 30 games, and people are talking about tanking and blowing it up 🤪 

 

The team has a problem at D for sure. It remains possible that this need be addressed. Let’s see if this group can manage to gradually improve under Ducharme. And remember that right now, this is a playoff team.

 

Beyond that, I am not a believer in tanking at all. Someone said the Oil are stacked. They have two great players for sure; and they have absolutely sucked ass for most of the decade, going through high picks like Taylor Swift goes through boyfriends. There are plenty of examples of tank jobs that yield terrible outcomes. And as I’ve noted many times, the Habs have done the equivalent of ‘tank drafts’ twice in the past decade, getting the 3rd overall pick. The results were...Kotkaniemi and Alex Galchenyuk. Excuse me for not thinking those picks were magic carpet rides to Cup-dom. Besides, the same people calling for tank jobs would be calling for the GM’s head when, four years later, the team is still a bottom-feeding suction eel putting out terrible hockey night after night. Forget it.

 

 

 

 

Well said.  Even a short tank that snags you the top pick one time might not do much for you; for every Connor McDavid or Nathan MacKinnon, there is a Rasmus Dahlin or an Alexis Lafreniere who make no impact at all early on...and might never be that franchise player.  I think this team just needs a couple of tweaks and one break to look much better:  a blueline upgrade who can skate and pass well, another larger forward who can score, preferably at center (more de-smurfing!), and Cole Caufield developing as a sniper asap.

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35 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I have to laugh a bit. This team is three points ahead of Calgary with one game in hand for the fourth playoff spot in the division after 30 games, and people are talking about tanking and blowing it up 🤪 

 

The team has a problem at D for sure. It remains possible that this need be addressed. Let’s see if this group can manage to gradually improve under Ducharme. And remember that right now, this is a playoff team.

 

Beyond that, I am not a believer in tanking at all. Someone said the Oil are stacked. They have two great players for sure; and they have absolutely sucked ass for most of the decade, going through high picks like Taylor Swift goes through boyfriends. There are plenty of examples of tank jobs that yield terrible outcomes. And as I’ve noted many times, the Habs have done the equivalent of ‘tank drafts’ twice in the past decade, getting the 3rd overall pick. The results were...Kotkaniemi and Alex Galchenyuk. Excuse me for not thinking those picks were magic carpet rides to Cup-dom. Besides, the same people calling for tank jobs would be calling for the GM’s head when, four years later, the team is still a bottom-feeding suction eel putting out terrible hockey night after night. Forget it.

 

 

If this was a one off, I’d agree.  But this had become modus operandi of the MB teams.  Start good despite Price’s slow start and than fade to the back of the pack.

 

I really HOPE that Weber is injured, otherwise, if this is a permanent decline, we are screwed. We have too much money invested in two aging players, in a league that increasingly is becoming no place for old men.

 

We have some good pieces. Up front, I really like the Taffoli pickup. A healthy Anderson looks like a difference maker. Suzuki looks like he will BECOME at least a solid #2 centre. Kk has shown potential, but is no guarantee. Drouin has looked better this year, but I don’t think he is ever going to make the sergechev trade look good. Caufield looks like he can be a scorer. The other issue is I don’t see a doctor fern with maker.  I don’t see the layer that can carry the team like the cup winners from the past 10 years.

On D, I have been really impressed with Petry. Romanov may become a good top pairing Dman. But that’s it. We have some prospects, but no one you can say WILL be a difference maker.  Again no one who can b the difference maker. 
 

than we get to goaltending. This is where we HAD our difference maker. The problem is he hasn’t looked like one on a long time. The issue is we have him signed for a long time.


we are the hamster wheel team.  We’ve changed out a lot of pieces, but are we really any better than when MB started??

 

I agree that the oilers have been crappy for a long time. But than they had lousy management fir a long time. It wasn’t tanking that killed them. It was stupid signings like Russell, Souray, Lucic, and koskinen. Or stupid trades. Ditto with the Sabres. Both have same issue as with habs when it comes to player development and drafting but it’s much easier to turn a tram around that has McDavid and  Draisaitl, than one with Danault and Suzuki.

 

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I think it is, ultimately, still too early to draw a verdict on the 2021 Montreal Canadiens. It is only a slight oversimplification to say that the first 15 games were excellent and the last 15 games mediocre. So, people who are saying to blow it up are literally saying we should do so based on 15 games.

 

And all I’m saying is, let’s let the season play out at least.

 

I do agree that the organization acted for many years as though both Price and Weber would be immortal and never age (just like MB did with Pleks. And I’d add that I was expressing concern about Pleks for two years before he finally crapped out altogether). This has been my concern for the past 3-4 years - that, first, we were burning through Weber and Price’s windows and that whatever young talent we had would not be ready within their window; and that, second, we have no one in the organization who promises to become  players equal to Price and Weber in their primes. While the last 15 games raise the harrowing possibility that my first concern is being 100% borne out, it’s still too soon to say this definitively.

 

What continues to bug me about this season is the badness of our vets. Danault, Tatar, and Gallagher have all been substandard - and for no apparent reason. Price was a complete disaster for a month and Weber is alarmingly bad by his standards. Of these five (!!!) disappointing core vets, only Weber’s play can really be attributed to regression due to age. (Sure, Price is aging, but there is no way that that explains how horrible he was for most of this season). It’s frustrating, because if the first four play like they should, the team probably has a handful of extra wins and everyone is sitting pretty.

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The concept of tanking still requires good management or its a waste (e.g., Edmonton) ... it is also not the same as just being BAD for a long time (e.g., Buffalo) ... tanking as an actual strategy ***MUST*** be linked to a superior draft year with elite talent at the top end, be ***a*** part of a proper rebuild ... and even then is admittedly no guarantee of success.

 

But while the first 3 years of Bergevin's tenure were playoff years (one second, one third and one first round exit early) with a largely inherited roster of players, the last five seasons have been textbook mediocrity (out of playoffs or first round exits) ... not tanking doesn't guarantee anything either.

 

 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I think it is, ultimately, still too early to draw a verdict on the 2021 Montreal Canadiens. It is only a slight oversimplification to say that the first 15 games were excellent and the last 15 games mediocre. So, people who are saying to blow it up are literally saying we should do so based on 15 games.

 

And all I’m saying is, let’s let the season play out at least ...

 

THAT is so very true ... the habs could still finish strong and make the Cup semis or better ... or they could still finish out of the playoffs and have a slim shot in the lottery

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2 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

The concept of tanking still requires good management or its a waste (e.g., Edmonton) ... it is also not the same as just being BAD for a long time (e.g., Buffalo) ... tanking as an actual strategy ***MUST*** be linked to a superior draft year with elite talent at the top end, be ***a*** part of a proper rebuild ... and even then is admittedly no guarantee of success.

 

But while the first 3 years of Bergevin's tenure were playoff years (one second, one third and one first round exit early) with a largely inherited roster of players, the last five seasons have been textbook mediocrity (out of playoffs or first round exits) ... not tanking doesn't guarantee anything either.

 

 

 

 

 

Very true. The only thing tanking guarantees is that the team will be really, truly terrible for an extended period of time. Not tanking makes it more likely that the team is at least competitive year in and year out, however.

 

If you have great management, you can build a winner without tanking (c.f. Boston); and if you have bad management, you can tank until the cows come home and never come close. All things being equal, then, give me great management and no tanking. And if our management sucks, why then tanking won’t help.

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I think it is, ultimately, still too early to draw a verdict on the 2021 Montreal Canadiens. It is only a slight oversimplification to say that the first 15 games were excellent and the last 15 games mediocre. So, people who are saying to blow it up are literally saying we should do so based on 15 games.

 

And all I’m saying is, let’s let the season play out at least.

 

I do agree that the organization acted for many years as though both Price and Weber would be immortal and never age (just like MB did with Pleks. And I’d add that I was expressing concern about Pleks for two years before he finally crapped out altogether). This has been my concern for the past 3-4 years - that, first, we were burning through Weber and Price’s windows and that whatever young talent we had would not be ready within their window; and that, second, we have no one in the organization who promises to become  players equal to Price and Weber in their primes. While the last 15 games raise the harrowing possibility that my first concern is being 100% borne out, it’s still too soon to say this definitively.

 

What continues to bug me about this season is the badness of our vets. Danault, Tatar, and Gallagher have all been substandard - and for no apparent reason. Price was a complete disaster for a month and Weber is alarmingly bad by his standards. Of these five (!!!) disappointing core vets, only Weber’s play can really be attributed to regression due to age. (Sure, Price is aging, but there is no way that that explains how horrible he was for most of this season). It’s frustrating, because if the first four play like they should, the team probably has a handful of extra wins and everyone is sitting pretty.

It’s price, Weber and improved offence that made me feel fairly confident in finishing in the top 3 in the North.  The first two have not even close to expectations (although Price had been better lately), and it just seems like we’ve seen this film before.

 

you look at Winnipeg, what should be a much worse D isn’t and their goalie is the MVP Price used to be.  
 

I don’t think we need to blow it up, I just am starting to feel that we need to move on from what’s been invested into Price and Weber, or we are going to regress further, as they continue to age.  With pretty much a flat cap for the next few years, we could be in big trouble with those contracts. Having said those are off-season moves. The hope would be the lie play improves enough by the end of the year, so someone takes a chance on them, but I think we need to spend that money elsewhere.

 

I also don’t think Tatar and Danault have added much THIS year. We’re going to lose them for nothing m, may as well get something back.  I still think playoffs are a possibility without them. We can’t really afford to resign them, may as well get something back.  If they both were playing like we expected, than there is no way you move them, because than we have 3 solid lines. Right now both are anchors to whoever they play with.

 

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33 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

 

THAT is so very true ... the habs could still finish strong and make the Cup semis or better ... or they could still finish out of the playoffs and have a slim shot in the lottery

With the north division, I firmly believed this was our best chance to get to the final 4.  However that required Price to be close to being at LEAST top 5 or 6 in the league and Weber continuing to be a true top pairing dman.  It also required out the one line that was producing, to continue to do so. We have failed on all those fronts. The young players are going through expected growing pains. Petry, Taffoli, Allen and Anderson (when healthy), have been the only real consistent bright spots.

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Hopefully this bodes well for tomorrow night:
 

 

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Anderson saying the right things ... admits team wasn't engaged in the last two games ...  guarantees "tomorrow everyone will be flying out there" 

 

 

 

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Ducharme confident Danault will play tomorrow, although missed today's practice for treatment ... Danault's injury impacts his capability to take faceoffs

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

And all I’m saying is, let’s let the season play out at least.

(...)

What continues to bug me about this season is the badness of our vets. Danault, Tatar, and Gallagher have all been substandard - and for no apparent reason.

Agree on not panicking. But I do want to point out that Gallagher has been much less of a disappointment, at least in terms of scoring, in spite of his linemates. Goals and assists per game for the past three years:

2018-2019: 0.40/0.23

2019-2020: 0.37/0.36

2020-2021: 0.37/0.22

 

The drop in assists is understandable -- if Danault were scoring Gallagher would easily be at last year's assist pace as well.

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I also don’t think Tatar and Danault have added much THIS year. We’re going to lose them for nothing m, may as well get something back.  I still think playoffs are a possibility without them. We can’t really afford to resign them, may as well get something back.  If they both were playing like we expected, than there is no way you move them, because than we have 3 solid lines. Right now both are anchors to whoever they play with.

 

If we can get something reasonable (i.e. not a third-rounder) then I'd be happy to consider that. We'll make the playoffs, or not, either with or without them, unless they turn things around very soon.

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

With the north division, I firmly believed this was our best chance to get to the final 4.  However that required Price to be close to being at LEAST top 5 or 6 in the league and Weber continuing to be a true top pairing dman.  It also required out the one line that was producing, to continue to do so. We have failed on all those fronts. The young players are going through expected growing pains. Petry, Taffoli, Allen and Anderson (when healthy), have been the only real consistent bright spots.

The four you mention are indeed the brightest. But I also see positives with Perry (what a steal!), Drouin (more consistent effort than I can recall ever before, and 0.67 points/game), Romanov (very strong, though some rookie mistakes), and Kotkaniemi (excellent passing, and getting stronger on the faceoff). Evans started off strong but has tapered off, as has Suzuki, whether from the workload or because the opponents have now scouted them.

 

But, yeah, we have too many disappointments so the bright spots aren't enough at the moment.

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24 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Agree on not panicking. But I do want to point out that Gallagher has been much less of a disappointment, at least in terms of scoring, in spite of his linemates. Goals and assists per game for the past three years:

2018-2019: 0.40/0.23

2019-2020: 0.37/0.36

2020-2021: 0.37/0.22

 

The drop in assists is understandable -- if Danault were scoring Gallagher would easily be at last year's assist pace as well.

 

Yes, I will be the first to say that Gally’s “struggles” are modest compared to those of his linemates. Still, I find that he has not been as consistently noticeable as his past play would lead us to expect - and even on good days he’ll be invisible for 55 minutes and then score a big goal, which is certainly preferable to the vanishing act of his colleagues. But he just seems out of sync more often than usual. I suspect that, in his case, playing with dead weights is mucking him up a bit. 

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21 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

The four you mention are indeed the brightest. But I also see positives with Perry (what a steal!), Drouin (more consistent effort than I can recall ever before, and 0.67 points/game), Romanov (very strong, though some rookie mistakes), and Kotkaniemi (excellent passing, and getting stronger on the faceoff). Evans started off strong but has tapered off, as has Suzuki, whether from the workload or because the opponents have now scouted them.

 

But, yeah, we have too many disappointments so the bright spots aren't enough at the moment.

For sure Perry has been better than expected - and I said the time I liked the signing, as an addition to picking up Taffoli. But Perry was a depth forward, that could occasionally be in the top 6, or the PP.  he is a needed depth player and a very good pickup, but he’s not one of the players that we should be expected to drive the bus for a lot of games.

 

Drouin has been much better and consistent, but i’ll still temper my enthusiasm of him in a shortened season, until he maintains that consistency.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Our centre production is a problem. 
 

Suzuki is our best but our best is 37th in the league for points. 
 

It will get better but for right now that is not good. 

Agreed, he will get better ... but the time to expect him to be a 1C/2C that leads the team on a playoff run currently seems likely to be at least another year or two away

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I really think that focusing on Suzuki and KK is the wrong approach. 

 

Both are progressing as you would have hoped. KK has gotten stronger as the season grinds on. Suzuki started strong and is now fading. But both are clearly in the process of establishing themselves as quality C in the league.

 

What drives me crazy is that it’s not their job to drive this bus. The veteran core should be sheltering and supporting them. Tatar, and especially Danault in the context of C, should be reliable threats instead of useless plugs. Gally should be consistently raising Cain. These guys, along with Drouin, Toffoli and Anderson (who have been fully value, unlike the first three) should be the main drivers, allowing the C to have ups and downs without feeling like the burden is on their shoulders. And Price should be providing the stabilizing ‘tending which inspires them with confidence.

 

Unfortunately, when your vets crap the bed, it hurts your young guns as well. Very frustrating.

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3 hours ago, GHT120 said:

Ducharme confident Danault will play tomorrow, although missed today's practice for treatment ... Danault's injury impacts his capability to take faceoffs

 

If I can offer up unsolicited lineup advice to Ducharme it would be this - with Danault not 100%, don't bench a natural centre in Evans.

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3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I really think that focusing on Suzuki and KK is the wrong approach. 

 

Both are progressing as you would have hoped. KK has gotten stronger as the season grinds on. Suzuki started strong and is now fading. But both are clearly in the process of establishing themselves as quality C in the league.

 

What drives me crazy is that it’s not their job to drive this bus. The veteran core should be sheltering and supporting them. Tatar, and especially Danault in the context of C, should be reliable threats instead of useless plugs. Gally should be consistently raising Cain. These guys, along with Drouin, Toffoli and Anderson (who have been fully value, unlike the first three) should be the main drivers, allowing the C to have ups and downs without feeling like the burden is on their shoulders. And Price should be providing the stabilizing ‘tending which inspires them with confidence.

 

Unfortunately, when your vets crap the bed, it hurts your young guns as well. Very frustrating.

All true ... unfortunately this team was built such that KK and Suzuki have carry much of the load at centre, even if danault was his usual self

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11 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:


This is why it’s a good thing you have nothing to do with making decision for the Habs organization. Go prefer the Sens situation. Go enjoy it. 

 

 


There really is no coherent advice being given within this post. 
 

Why do some people bring up the draft every losing streak? I had to go all the way back to Matthews, McDavid, Mackinnon, Stamkos (2008) and Patrick Kane in 2007 to find any meaningful 1st overall picks. In fact, Stamkos/Kane are the only meaningful picks that have actually accomplished anything as a 1st overall pick.  

 

Matthews is the most recent pick and 4-5 years later, the Leafs have still accomplished nothing.

 

What have the Sabres, Edmonton, Toronto, Florida or New Jersey accomplished thanks to their amazing positions in the recent draft? How about the New York Rangers? Oh, but I understand that some people would probably “prefer their situation” regardless of the reality that they have accomplished squat since 1994 as well.

 

If we were to “tank”, as you literally suggested in your post, the evidence shows, that nothing would come out of it for another 5+ years. In my opinion, Colorado is the closest to be coming out of the mole hill, and there’s still nothing close to guaranteed for them.

 

The Habs have been a “middling team”. You can’t just have everything you said a team needs, goaltending, solid depth, and tank simultaneously. You have to actually be a bad team.

 

What I am hearing is that we should expect the Habs to have the best of both worlds, “decent team, but tanking with high draft capabilities”, which is simply an irrational thought.
 

What’s even more worrisome is that some of you have already been dreaming of this situation for 5+ years. It’s mind boggling from a neutral standpoint.

First, it isn’t the losing streak..I have been saying this for two years... people told me the habs were going to be much better once our young talent was playing (or if we got a coach who would use them). Well,,, here we are... 

 

second.., first you get the young talent... then you build the depth around them... I never said get everything and then tank... that is your strawman.... 

 

trade price.. Weber.... etc.. get picks and prospects... tank... get some top talent... start rebuilding...

 

people who don’t understand that model have cried about that not working for thirty years... sorry, but if you don’t have top talent in this league you are not going to be a top team.. it doesn’t happen overnight either.

 

if you honestly think this team is top tier or if we jusT need a good trade or two then you are entitled to your opinion. It is the same opinion as Bergevin. How is that working out?

 

yes, it will take five years... and there are no guarantees. How many decades now have I seen tHis mediocrity. If we win the cup in five years I would be happy... it might take eight.... if we keep repeating the same old bubble team approach I might not live to see it. 
 

so while you are entitled to your view, my view is hardly radical or crazy.. bergevin has twice tried to reset this team. He has failed over and over again... he had a choice.. reset or rebuild.. he chose reset and IMO, he made a mistake... 

 

he isn’t the guy who will build this team into a real top tier team..he is the guy who will get you a playoff series every couple of years.., I would fire him and tell the next GM to rebuild.

 

and again.. it isn’t the losing streak.. just like I didn’t think we were cup contenders in the first ten games either... 

 

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