GDT Apr 14. Flames vs Canadiens, 7PM

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

22 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

Pretty much my exact take on it as well. We are almost a lock to make the playoffs and the regular season standings don't have much of an impact because we know we have to get through 2 of Toronto, Winnipeg or Edmonton regardless of where we finish. I still have a lot of faith in this team and I do believe we will see a better and more consistent performance during the playoffs.

 

 

 

I think it is quite possible that this is one of those teams whose goals, collectively, are all playoff-directed. That may sound strange to say about a club that has missed the playoffs for five of the last six years, or whatever it is; but vets like Weber, Perry, Staal, Price, Gallagher, Edmundson, Chiarot, etc., may well be prone to thinking that way: “I can’t leave it all out there at Game 40 of a regular season any more, but when the bell rings for the dance, I will be there.” A dude like Anderson may have trouble with the bruises and small injuries that his playing style creates during the regular season, but plough through them for the playoffs. It’s the old LA Kings model.

 

We saw it in The Bubble too. Suddenly Weber looked impressive instead of pathetic. Suddenly Price and Chiarot were bringing their A-games. 

 

So I don’t rule it out at all. I think this team has that kind of profile.

 

That being said, most of the time, a contending team can’t turn it on and off like a tap. It’s not reassuring the way this group lurches from impressive to useless within 48 hours, and keeps doing it. Plus, they have to make the damned playoffs - and to do that you have to slit Calgary’s throat, not “give them oxygen.”

 

9 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I have no issues with one id Chariot, or Edmondson. I’d only want both of one of them was more of a 7th dman. But if we don’t have that superstar player - particularly at centre, and don’t have a dominating dman either, than our S needs to have higher quantity of quality dmen in the top 4. Who knows, maybe Suzuki does become a 2nd tier superstar player like a Gilmour (had 3 100+ point seasons, but was mainly a 80-90 point guy), or a Modano - not in the Gretzky/Lemieux/Sakic/Lafontaine/Yzerman dominance or PPG class. But in the absence of a Hedman type of dman in defence, or McDavid/Matthews type of centre, we need more quality players in our top 4 on defence a d top 9 forwards. At the forward positing I think we are close IF Caufield, Suzuki, KK reach their potential ceilings - who knows Caufield may be even turn out to be a superstar winger, but even if he doesn’t, I like Taffoli, Gallagher and see potential in Anderson (if he can stay healthy).  We don’t have anywhere near that depth at D. If we still had the Weber of 2007-12, I’d feel differently, but we have the same aging defence issue as SJS. Edmondson and Chariot is not who I’d want in the top 4 with two aging dmen - one who is showing obvious signs of decline, and another who’s play has dropped off because he probably isn’t suited to be a true 1st pairing dman and needs a better partner.

 

As you imply, the single biggest problem with the D is the major decline of Weber. If you pulled out Weber of 2021 and inserted Weber of even 2018, nobody would be ripping their hair out. But these days Weber is on Chiarot’s level - if that. 

 

Petry has taken a step back in recent weeks and that is a further issue. Without him being Super Petry the offensive push from the back end is comically inadequate. It’s really too bad MB has been unable to find a quality puck-moving LD...the last of those chronic long-term lineup holes which he has failed to address. It’s haunting us now.

 

[GHT120]

12 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

That’s why unless we have a real good playoffs, I think we need to totally rebuild the D. Keep Petry and Romanov and tear down the rest. There maybe teams that need to move a good dman before the expansion draft. Would Dumba, Ellis, Ekholm, Dunn, be possibilities as guys that couldn’t be protected?

 

It will be interesting when teams begin to prepare their lists ... opportunity may knock ... but will anyone be potentially available that would be appreciably better than what the Habs have ... slightly better deck chairs in the Titanic are still deck chairs on the Titanic

 

11 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I tend to agree with you, but pulling it off would be a formidable feat of GMing, not unlike what he did with the FW unit this summer. It may not prove possible. Also, you look at Edmundson and Chiarot and you really can’t say they’re not quality D. The problem seems to be that the mix is wrong - too many slowfoots. You may not need to turn over everyone to correct that.

 

If the habs don't have a real good playoff it may well (likely will?) not be MB doing the GM'ing ... which in terms of rebuilding the D would be good ... Weber, Chiarot and Edmundson were to one degree or another significant acquisitions intended to play top 4 roles ... I doubt that Bergevin would/could walk away from any of his hand-picked pieces ... however, I could see Merrill re-signed as a 3rd pairing anchor if they can get him for a good contract, with one of Chiarot or Edmondson moved out to allow for a top 4 upgrade.

 

 

[GHT120]

5 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

This team is lazy and DD deserves heat for it

 

But they have such GREAT leadership ... and this is NOT a shot at Weber, but rather the whole leadership core ... great leadership and team character shouldn't allow a team to be flat so often ... something is off, hopefully they can work it out by the playoffs

[GHT120]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

... We saw it in The Bubble too. Suddenly Weber looked impressive instead of pathetic. Suddenly Price and Chiarot were bringing their A-games ...

Of course that was after months of rest and relaxation ... not a balls-out, fight for playoff position sprint ... the way they played in The Bubble in my opinion emphasizes the need to prioritize "load management" over scratching and clawing their way up the standings (other than guaranteeing the playoff spot).

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

5 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

 

But they have such GREAT leadership ... and this is NOT a shot at Weber, but rather the whole leadership core ... great leadership and team character shouldn't allow a team to be flat so often ... something is off, hopefully they can work it out by the playoffs

 

I have wondered about the internal chemistry ever since they went into that tailspin which got Julien fired. I still think it's possible that the established veterans had their noses put out of joint by the newcomers eating into their ice-time and/or alpha status on the club; or maybe there are just new pieces who simply don't get along with elements of the previous core.

 

2 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

Of course that was after months of rest and relaxation ... not a balls-out, fight for playoff position sprint ... the way they played in The Bubble in my opinion emphasizes the need to prioritize "load management" over scratching and clawing their way up the standings (other than guaranteeing the playoff spot).

 

Good point. But I also think there may well be something to the idea that this is a "built for the playoff" roster. Time will tell, as it always does...

[Prime Minister Koivu]

1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

But they have such GREAT leadership ... and this is NOT a shot at Weber, but rather the whole leadership core ... great leadership and team character shouldn't allow a team to be flat so often ... something is off, hopefully they can work it out by the playoffs

Maybe we are a playoff specialist team and hopefully we find out. Calgary is 4 points back and we play each other 4 more times and they could easily be ahead of us next week.  
 

Still burns my ass that a team built on character and monumental leadership only shows up to play 80% of the time. 

What was the catalyst that caused the leafs to finally get serious? Years of garbage teams, supported by their fan base in spite of the garbage - just like our Habs. 
 

Im tired of being crap

 

[GHT120]

34 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

... What was the catalyst that caused the leafs to finally get serious? ...

 

IMO it was TV ratings ... Rogers/Bell bought 75% of MLSE in 2012 ... they both carry games and jointly own Leafs Nation network ... winning draws more eyeballs than losing ... winning with stars draws more eyeballs than winning as a team

 

After dumping Burke and missing the boat by hiring Dave Nonis as GM, in April 2014 they hired Shanahan as President to oversee the whole shop ... he insulates the GM from ownership and sets the course ... credit where credit is due, even when it is TO

[Neech]

I'm in the camp that sees this as a team built for the playoffs and we just have to get in, but in that case we should be giving Petry and especially Weber a game off now and then.  It could only help their performance with both struggling.  NHL teams are slow to adopt NBA-style load management or European football-style squad rotations (call them what you like); a compressed schedule is the perfect time to try it. I know we hardly have suitable replacements, but a part of the idea is that the core guys will play better if rested. I doubt a Bergy-led organization would be the first to implement major innovations, but I could see it becoming more commonplace around the league over the next few years.  

[GHT120]

3 minutes ago, Neech said:

... I know we hardly have suitable replacements, but a part of the idea is that the core guys will play better if rested ...

 

Don't know if I am as confident about them being a team built for the playoffs ... it may benefit the defence but not certain there won't be a goal scoring dip come "clutch&grab" time ... but as of Monday they at least have legit NHL not suitable replacements to spell heavier minute defenceman

[Neech]

1 hour ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

What was the catalyst that caused the leafs to finally get serious? Years of garbage teams, supported by their fan base in spite of the garbage - just like our Habs. 
 

Im tired of being crap

 

 

The Leafs drafted Reilly, Marner and Matthews in the top-5, all franchise cornerstones - contrast them with our top-5 whiffs Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi.  Subban is the only real star we've drafted during my two decades plus as a Habs fan.  

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

4 minutes ago, Neech said:

 

The Leafs drafted Reilly, Marner and Matthews in the top-5, all franchise cornerstones - contrast them with our top-5 whiffs Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi.  Subban is the only real star we've drafted during my two decades plus as a Habs fan.  

 

Well, there's also Carey Price. But your basic point is sound; it's often suggested that the Habs are excellent at drafting NHL-calibre talent and well below par at identifying elite talent at the draft. And before someone jumps in and cries "tank!" it's worth remembering, as you note, that we have had two picks at #3 overall during MB's tenure, and also that Subban was a 2nd-rounder.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

50 minutes ago, Neech said:

 

The Leafs drafted Reilly, Marner and Matthews in the top-5, all franchise cornerstones - contrast them with our top-5 whiffs Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi.  Subban is the only real star we've drafted during my two decades plus as a Habs fan.  

 

Reilly and Marner were excellent picks no doubt. Mathews was a no brainer #1 pick, they were lucky to have the #1 pick that year. I remember reading the paper the day after they picked Marner, some executive said "I can't believe they drafted Marner when Noah Hannifan was still available".  i guess the Leaf scouts were right on that one. 

[DON]

2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Im tired of being crap

Once in a while every team forgets to show up and Habs have had some great games, but also

too many crapshows (especially at home), most will agree with you on that.

1 minute ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

Mathews was a no brainer #1 pick, they were lucky to have the #1 pick that year. 

Not lucky, they tanked on purpose and all knew it, fielding bare minimum NHL quality to ensure worse record, nipping Oilers by 1 pt.

 

But, 50+ years of futility, they are bound to find a good player sooner or later.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

6 minutes ago, DON said:

Once in a while every team forgets to show up and Habs have had some great games, but also

too many crapshows (especially at home), most will agree with you on that.

Not lucky, they tanked on purpose and all knew it, fielding bare minimum NHL quality to ensure worse record, nipping Oilers by 1 pt.

 

But, 50+ years of futility, they are bound to find a good player sooner or later.

 

They did tank on purpose, my wording should have been that they were lucky there was a player of Mathews ability available the year they had the #1 pick.  There isn't always a franchise player available at #1  (ie. Yakupov).

[Prime Minister Koivu]

1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

IMO it was TV ratings ... Rogers/Bell bought 75% of MLSE in 2012 ... they both carry games and jointly own Leafs Nation network ... winning draws more eyeballs than losing ... winning with stars draws more eyeballs than winning as a team

 

After dumping Burke and missing the boat by hiring Dave Nonis as GM, in April 2014 they hired Shanahan as President to oversee the whole shop ... he insulates the GM from ownership and sets the course ... credit where credit is due, even when it is TO

Yeah it was the hiring of Shanahan that started the turnaround. Of course it was viewership, meaning money that made them get serious. 
 

Leafs did get lucky with Mathews and Mariner no doubt but their success is not about those two alone. 
 

We need a Canada wide ban on Molson products until the Habs compete or whatever would motivate Geoff. 
 

For now we really need to beat Calgary and Ottawa and we should be able to test if the Habs are a playoff team or not. 
 

Imagine if we knocked the leafs out? 

[alfredoh2009]

2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Yeah it was the hiring of Shanahan that started the turnaround. Of course it was viewership, meaning money that made them get serious. 
 

Leafs did get lucky with Mathews and Mariner no doubt but their success is not about those two alone. 
 

We need a Canada wide ban on Molson products until the Habs compete or whatever would motivate Geoff. 
 

For now we really need to beat Calgary and Ottawa and we should be able to test if the Habs are a playoff team or not. 
 

Imagine if we knocked the leafs out? 

 

that is a weird strategy to improve a hockey team, to choke the revenue of their owner?!

 

Like someone pushing to get me laid off until my kids become A+ students , WTF !!!

[GHT120]

Thinking of last night's game

 

 

 

[Prime Minister Koivu]

1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

that is a weird strategy to improve a hockey team, to choke the revenue of their owner?!

 

Like someone pushing to get me laid off until my kids become A+ students , WTF !!!

That is essentially what the leafs did and that is the start of the leaf turn around - plus some tanking...

 

Just playing around with the leaf model

 

24 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

Thinking of last night's game

 

 

 

I expect that we will turn this around out west. Price back, Caufield up

[hab29RETIRED]

5 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

Don't know if I am as confident about them being a team built for the playoffs ... it may benefit the defence but not certain there won't be a goal scoring dip come "clutch&grab" time ... but as of Monday they at least have legit NHL not suitable replacements to spell heavier minute defenceman

I don’t think load management is going to suddenly improve the D. It may help a guy like Perry, because he’s not expected to be a frontline offensive player. He’s a depth player that can provide some offense and chip in here and there. If he’s who we are counting to drive the offence, we may as well as concede the last playoff spot to Calgary. Taffoli, Tatar, Anderson, and even Drouin are clearly ahead of him in the depth chart (Gallagher obviously also is when he’s back).

It’s a different issue on defence. Weber is no longer a top pairing defence and I don’t see him getting better - he’s probably going to get worse. Sure he’ll have some good games, but at this stage of his career he’ll have more bad games than good ones. Lafleur looked great in his last season or two in that game against the habs when he scored two. The birds weren’t expecting him to be able to be the man, even though he’d show traces of that old superstar every now and again. Weber is not a top pairing dman anymore - it’s why I didn’t like the Subban deal (but trying to rehash the debate in the trade - just making the point on investing heavily on older players in a league that is getting younger. Subban also has regressed as he’s aged, even at a younger age than Weber did. Karlsson also has regressed in San Jose).

that brings us to Petry. He’s never really been a true #1 dman in the NHL. He started out as being our best Dman, but that is not his usual role. I think his struggles may not be much different than that if a backup goalie being asked to take on a starters role.

thus year, it may help giving Weber an odd night off, and it would help. Managing his game minutes. But I don’t think we can realistically expect him to find the fountain of youth and become the player he was, rather than the player he his. We also unfortunately don’t really have too many options. MB’s signed a lot of older depth dmen. The only young dman is Romanov- and he isn’t ready for the top 4. 
the D needs to be rebuilt. It is what it is fir this year. But resting Weber isn’t what is going to help us succeed in the playoffs.  If we succeed, it will be because of lights out goaltending and Suzuki and KK showing more progression going into the playoffs.

[hab29RETIRED]

4 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Reilly and Marner were excellent picks no doubt. Mathews was a no brainer #1 pick, they were lucky to have the #1 pick that year. I remember reading the paper the day after they picked Marner, some executive said "I can't believe they drafted Marner when Noah Hannifan was still available".  i guess the Leaf scouts were right on that one. 

If they fire MB. I think my top choice would be Mark Hunter. Ex-hab too boot.

[hab29RETIRED]

4 hours ago, DON said:

Once in a while every team forgets to show up and Habs have had some great games, but also

too many crapshows (especially at home), most will agree with you on that.

Not lucky, they tanked on purpose and all knew it, fielding bare minimum NHL quality to ensure worse record, nipping Oilers by 1 pt.

 

But, 50+ years of futility, they are bound to find a good player sooner or later.

Well, we are approaching 30 years.

[GHT120]

7 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

If they fire MB. I think my top choice would be Mark Hunter. Ex-hab too boot.

If the "French issue" is a factor because Hunter (or any other candidate) is a uni-lingual Anglo, then bring in a French speaking President who can be the face of Habs management

[GHT120]

10 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I don’t think load management is going to suddenly improve the D ... It’s a different issue on defence. Weber is no longer a top pairing defence and I don’t see him getting better - he’s probably going to get worse. Sure he’ll have some good games, but at this stage of his career he’ll have more bad games than good ones ... thus year, it may help giving Weber an odd night off, and it would help. Managing his game minutes. But I don’t think we can realistically expect him to find the fountain of youth and become the player he was, rather than the player he his ...

 

I agree ... but at this point this year is all anyone is suggesting ... the overall defence is a matter for this summer ... not that I expect much to get done by Bergevin given the top 4 are all his choices, but it is a separate discussion for a different time.

 

[alfredoh2009]

Let’s manage expectations 

 

the D is being rebuilt with Romanov, Norlinder, maybe Harris and Ghule

at this point Brook is getting closer to being a 2nd pair D and Fleury a 3rd pair D

 

They signed Petry to be the stopgap until the RDS are ready

The Left Ds have a bit more runway.

 

the current window goes through Price, Weber and Petry playing awesome and the Danault line to perform as I. It’s best years 

 

a new GM can probably make good changes and improve the team in the short term; but deviating from  MB’s retool plan will set the team back a generation

[hab29RETIRED]

17 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Let’s manage expectations 

 

the D is being rebuilt with Romanov, Norlinder, maybe Harris and Ghule

at this point Brook is getting closer to being a 2nd pair D and Fleury a 3rd pair D

 

They signed Petry to be the stopgap until the RDS are ready

The Left Ds have a bit more runway.

 

the current window goes through Price, Weber and Petry playing awesome and the Danault line to perform as I. It’s best years 

 

a new GM can probably make good changes and improve the team in the short term; but deviating from  MB’s retool plan will set the team back a generation

Are you comfortable going into next year with a status quo other than the hope (which makes a lousy strategy), that those kids are ready? At least with KK and Suzuki coming into this year, they had some NHL experience. From the young D, Romanov is the only one who’s gotten his feet wet in pro hockey - and he’s not ready for a significant role.