Habs-Leafs Series Discussion Thread

[alfredoh2009]

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

Kk is younger than romanov and only a few months older than caufield. 

yes, I get that and I agree that we need to be patient; but it is starting to get harder to uphold that point of view

[Commandant]

Generally I dont give up on 20 year olds.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 minute ago, Commandant said:

Generally I dont give up on 20 year olds.

 

Way way too early to give up on KK. He is a young player who has lost confidence. He has had many good chances to score but the puck is not going in. A goal would likely do wonders for his confidence but he may not get that chance for a couple games at least. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

1 minute ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Way way too early to give up on KK. He is a young player who has lost confidence. He has had many good chances to score but the puck is not going in. A goal would likely do wonders for his confidence but he may not get that chance for a couple games at least. 

 

I think he’s an NHLer for sure. Where I am *close* to giving up is on the idea that he will be any sort of impact player - even a top-6 FW may not materialize. He’s basically stunk for three consecutive seasons. Like Lehkonen, his best year was his first, which I don’t take as a particularly good sign.

 

You can say he’s “lost confidence;” well, that makes two seasons in a row. There are legions of players out there that can’t be counted upon to produce offence except when they go on occasional hot spells where they “have their confidence.” Perhaps this is his pattern. You say “he has had many good chances to score but the puck is not going in.” Again - there are legions of players who “get chances” but consistently fail to score. Lehkonen, again, is a great example.

 

The most troubling thing about him is the flat development curve: three straight years of mediocre results, playing himself out of the lineup at the end of Year Three.

 

Concern is a reasonable response.

[DON]

19 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

He’s basically stunk for three consecutive seasons. 

 

2018 picks;

#5 pick- Hayton 7pts

#6 pick - Zadina 37pts

#9 pick - Kravtsov 4pts

#11 pick- Wahlstrom 21pts

 

just for comparison

[Prime Minister Koivu]

2 minutes ago, DON said:

2018 picks;

#5 pick- Hayton 7pts

#6 pick - Zadina 37pts

#9 pick - Kravtsov 4pts

#11 pick- Wahlstrom 21pts

 

just for comparison

Brady Tkachuk 36 points this year KK had 20

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

3 minutes ago, DON said:

2018 picks;

#5 pick- Hayton 7pts

#6 pick - Zadina 37pts

#9 pick - Kravtsov 4pts

#11 pick- Wahlstrom 21pts

 

just for comparison

 

Why aren’t you comparing him to Tkachuk and Quinn Hughes? 🙄 Oh yeah, because that would mean accepting that the Habs f**ked up, as per usual.

[hab29RETIRED]

12 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Revisiting history, not bad after a few years when we have enough games to evaluate the players

 

Let’s give Caufield and Romanov a bit more time

 

KK... it is getting harder and harder to keep a positive projection for him

All three have plenty of time. Romanov  is a rookie, Caufield isn’t even officially a rookie yet, and ideally this would have been KK’s rookie year. Compared to some of his peers, KK is behind, but let’s hope he’s at least Aho lite than Eller.

[hab29RETIRED]

17 minutes ago, DON said:

2018 picks;

#5 pick- Hayton 7pts

#6 pick - Zadina 37pts

#9 pick - Kravtsov 4pts

#11 pick- Wahlstrom 21pts

 

just for comparison

Difference is they aren’t all in their third year, since they weren’t rushed in. Most have been progressing in ice time, rather than being scratched at the most important time of the year.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

42 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I think he’s an NHLer for sure. Where I am *close* to giving up is on the idea that he will be any sort of impact player - even a top-6 FW may not materialize. He’s basically stunk for three consecutive seasons. Like Lehkonen, his best year was his first, which I don’t take as a particularly good sign.

 

You sure have high expectations for an 18 year old if you put him in the "stink" category when he was 18.  I don't think he stunk when he was 18.  He didn't stink in the playoffs last year.  Player development is not always a linear path. 

[alfredoh2009]

52 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I think he’s an NHLer for sure. Where I am *close* to giving up is on the idea that he will be any sort of impact player - even a top-6 FW may not materialize. He’s basically stunk for three consecutive seasons. Like Lehkonen, his best year was his first, which I don’t take as a particularly good sign.

 

You can say he’s “lost confidence;” well, that makes two seasons in a row. There are legions of players out there that can’t be counted upon to produce offence except when they go on occasional hot spells where they “have their confidence.” Perhaps this is his pattern. You say “he has had many good chances to score but the puck is not going in.” Again - there are legions of players who “get chances” but consistently fail to score. Lehkonen, again, is a great example.

 

The most troubling thing about him is the flat development curve: three straight years of mediocre results, playing himself out of the lineup at the end of Year Three.

 

Concern is a reasonable response.

I am not as severe with my take on KK, but I base it on @The Chicoutimi Cucumber ‘s wise opinion of not to put too much hopes on the shoulders of a rookie unless they are a star.

I agree with you that KKs performance up to now is disappointing. He has lost his spot on the lineup to Stall !!! Of all people 

 

But I still have hopes that he will be as good or better that Danault and Plekanec in their best years 

[hab29RETIRED]

7 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

You sure have high expectations for an 18 year old if you put him in the "stink" category when he was 18.  I don't think he stunk when he was 18.  He didn't stink in the playoffs last year.  Player development is not always a linear path. 

He as very good in the playoffs last year, but prior to the play-in, he clearly did not belong in the NHL. I think, he would have been better served to be brought in slowly last year. Or this year. Physically, he still doesn’t look ready and looks like he is still growing into his body by they way he is constantly falling.

[GHT120]

37 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Generally I dont give up on 20 year olds.

I agree ... but there is a difference between going up on a 20 yr-old and lowering expectations ... the hope/justification for drafting a player third overall who jumped a dozen or so spaces in Bob McKenzies' last ranking, was that he could be a legit 1/2C ... maybe he will turn out to be, you are very correct that he is after all only 20, but counting on that progression as part of the habs improvement to a legit Cup contender is IMO not a good idea ... as for terms like "stink", "flop", etc., fans sadly tend to by hyperbolic in both heir criticism and praise of players, especially younger players.

 

The Habs had three needs at the time centre was the greatest but power forward and puck-moving defenceman was close behind ... at the moment, Tkachuk or Hughes would be able to contribute more ... time will tell if that remains true.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

11 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

He as very good in the playoffs last year, but prior to the play-in, he clearly did not belong in the NHL. I think, he would have been better served to be brought in slowly last year. Or this year. Physically, he still doesn’t look ready and looks like he is still growing into his body by they way he is constantly falling.

 

I don't disagree, I think they rushed him. He would have been better off playing 20 minutes a game in Finland, world juniors etc etc   I have seen it happen many times where a player comes to camp as an 18 year old, there is no pressure on him and they look great, the following year expectations are higher and they regress.  Playing an extra year  of college helped Caulfied immensely, he had a chance to be a leader on the team and he matured a lot. 

[Commandant]

55 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

You sure have high expectations for an 18 year old if you put him in the "stink" category when he was 18.  I don't think he stunk when he was 18.  He didn't stink in the playoffs last year.  Player development is not always a linear path. 

 

Exactly.  I'd say player development is never a linear path but that is just nitpicking. 

[Commandant]

The three guys most likely to be nominated for the Calder (Kaprizov, Robertson, and Nedjelkovic) are all older than KK. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

You sure have high expectations for an 18 year old if you put him in the "stink" category when he was 18.  I don't think he stunk when he was 18.  He didn't stink in the playoffs last year.  Player development is not always a linear path. 

 

Right, I should have known better than to include the word "stunk," since it would overwhelm everything else I said in that post (including the opening line which says "he's an NHLer for sure"). So let me try to mitigate the trauma caused by that word. What I meant to say was that KK has been a mediocre NHLer for three straight years now. 9 strong games in the Bubble are in no way, shape, or form enough to shift that overall assessment. I would be a lot happier if there was some compelling indicator that he has improved since he started; but I for one don't see such a pattern or arc of improvement. In fact this is the second year in a row he has played himself out of the lineup.

 

And again, my post did not say he will never become a good player. It said that there are legitimate "grounds for concern." I stand by that.

 

(Incidentally, I've heard the same song and dance about a lot of young players on the Habs - including Lehkonen, Mete, and Jonathan Drouin, another guy whose development arc was a similarly flat line. This does not mean KK will not evolve into Danault, of course, which is probably the most to be hoped for; but it warns us against being too complacent that, because he is 20, he is somehow destined to become an impact player).

 

 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

2 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Right, I should have known better than to include the word "stunk," since it would overwhelm everything else I said in that post (including the opening line which says "he's an NHLer for sure"). So let me try to mitigate the trauma caused by that word. What I meant to say was that KK has been a mediocre NHLer for three straight years now. 9 strong games in the Bubble are in no way, shape, or form enough to shift that overall assessment. I would be a lot happier if there was some compelling indicator that he has improved since he started; but I for one don't see such a pattern or arc of improvement. In fact this is the second year in a row he has played himself out of the lineup.

 

And again, my post did not say he will never become a good player. It said that there are legitimate "grounds for concern." I stand by that.

 

 

 

I think that's a much fairer assessment. I am still hopeful/somewhat confident  that KK will become a good NHL player.  I also have more grounds for concern than at this time last year, hopefully it's just confidence.

[Commandant]

Kotkaniemi was a good player for the first 30 games of this season and struggled for the last 26.  

 

Given his age, there is a lot to suggest that he can take what he did over the first 30 games and extend it to a full season, learn to come out of slumps and become more consistent going forward.  He can even take another step from those first 30 games. 

[DON]

2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Brady Tkachuk 36 points this year KK had 20

So, that means he stunk for last 3 years?

[DON]

2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Why aren’t you comparing him to Tkachuk and Quinn Hughes? 🙄 Oh yeah, because that would mean accepting that the Habs f**ked up, as per usual.

So if he hasnt equaled those 2 he has shite the bed for last 3 years?

 

OK, got it, washed up at 20...who knew.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

14 minutes ago, DON said:

So if he hasnt equaled those 2 he has shite the bed for last 3 years?

 

OK, got it, washed up at 20...who knew.

 

Geez, it's hard to have a conversation around here 🙄 Quick tip: read someone's posts before freaking out about them

[alfredoh2009]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Geez, it's hard to have a conversation around here 🙄 Quick tip: read someone's posts before freaking out about them

There is a lot of trolling going on, like fruit flies buzzing around

 

[DON]

2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Geez, it's hard to have a conversation around here 🙄 Quick tip: read someone's posts before freaking out about them

Sorry, you lost my attention at "stunk for 3 years bit"... and i can cherry pick what i want cant I.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

2 hours ago, DON said:

So, that means he stunk for last 3 years?

Im not against KK at all nor do I think he is a bust. He simply doesn’t look like he is a #1 centre which is what people expected. 
 

Ive compared him to Danault because I think that is what he becomes and that certainly isn’t a bust