Claude Julien: Keep'em or Fire'em

[goonhab]

No need for a trade to shake this team up yet. The first shake-up is to have K and K return than we will need to be patient some more since this is a rebuilding team, which should make the paly-offs. If this poor performance continues than expect some activity by the end of January, maybe early February.

BUT Gainey could make a trade before if there is a sweet deal to be had.

[Dutch_Habs_Fan]

Originally posted by Huckleberry

I find the more time the rookies play, the more rookie mistakes are made. Slowly putting them into the game may have some merit. I am still with Julien. If things do not turn around after our stars return, then I may be the loudest calling for heads to roll.

Thats completely true, but at this point the persons who should stand up like Zednik and ribeiro make te big mistakes. Just like yesterday, its sad to see how Zednik loses that puck and Edmonton scores. Fault is Fault, and its so clear that the rookies play better and with more heart than the players that SHOULD. The best players are on the first line, the best players (on that first line) get the most minutes, but the guys on that line havent been performing for quite some time now. Give the rookies some credit and confidence. They perform, award that with more minutes!

[BTH]

Originally posted by KoZed

I think this is asking the wrong question.

Its not CJ's fault for giving his vets ice-time. Its the vet's fault for not making the most of it.  

This is just an old, well-known golden rules for coaches: if you're going to lose, lose your with your best players, ie. your vets, your known-quantities, your proven guys. They'll have to carry the burden of the loss. You dont place that kind of burden on rookies by giving them loads of ice-time.

I think people are kidding themselves if they think a new coach would throw out Plekanec, Higgins & Co. for 16, 17 mins every game.  

Blame the underachievers, not the coach.

:/)

EDIT: But I'd like to add that the first mistake is the underachieving team and the second mistake is Julien not motivatting and helping his team. If the score is 3-2 Habs but we're getting dominated than it's no big burden on the rookies to play them. We're winning anyway.

[Edited on 2005/12/16 by Bulis_the_Habbie]

[Fanpuck33_]

Originally posted by Leafs Suck

Your right, I'm wrong.

Does that satisfy your ego?

Let me get this straight, when you call other people silly, it's your opinion.

If I call someone silly for starting a thread, it's because of my ego?

I'm not a close-minded person. If you back up your opinion well enough, my mind can be changed. Instead, when I give you this opportunity, instead of defending your position, you start calling me a big ego.

This attitude is typical of a close-minded person who sees that he is wrong. After you realize that you are beat and can no longer defend your position, you resort to name calling.

[Colin]

It's not that we're losing with Koivu and Kovalev out of the lineup, it's the *way* we're losing those games. Conversely, it's not enough that we won all those games early on, remember the *way* we won those games - we backed into half the wins, didn't deserve them at all.

There are too many passengers on this team, and I think most people would agree with that statement. My question is this: when a player is coasting through his games and not making a lick of difference - a la Zednik lately - then why isn't he replaced on the top lines with a kid who has talent and the drive to use it, or even better, why isn't Zed watching the game with a bag of popcorn in one hand and a pink slip in the other? At the end of the Edmonton game, Julien put him on the ice rather than Perezhogin, Higgins, and even Kostitsyn. Hell, I'd have gone with Murray before Zed because at least you can tell Murray to get to the net and stand on the goalie and he'll DO HIS JOB.

If a team has struggles two or three games in a row, well that's pretty normal. Every team has that kind of problem over the course of a season. But when you can't motivate guys to play hard for basically the bulk of the season, I have to question your bench abilities.

Let's not even get into his mishandling of the kids - and I don't want to hear that they don't belong hear, because Higgins and Plekanec at the very least have proven they belong. What about Julien's continual use of the Dags - Ribs - Ryder line? I mean come on, it's completely and totally useless five-on-five. Anyone who actually watches the game cannot help but agree, even if you're the most diehard Ribeiro fan on the planet, he's been awful five-on-five. Why is that combination continually used? If you want to spark Ribs, why not TRY something different. And by try, I don't mean three shifts in a row. I mean give it a couple of games - I hate this line juggling garbage when things aren't working for him during a game. Unless he's going to stick with something and let it develop, he's never going to get anywhere. Peewee coaches know this.

Look, there's no doubt that he's done a fine job getting the team to at least buy into a more responsible defensive system - because even if they don't execute night in and night out, you can see they're in basically the right places. I mean, Zednik is almost always positionally correct, he just doesn't break a sweat while he's there. Julien has put this team on the right track. But I think the players have stopped listening. Of COURSE they have, they aren't competing night in and night out at all.

Jarvis, in my opinion, is not the answer either, though he probably is next in line. I believe this team needs a complete revamp of the bench bosses - which sucks for Jarvis, actually. Green has done a fine job getting the defence to this point. Jarvis is going to be a fine coach after a few more years of apprenticing. But we need to strike out in a completely new direction and, as others have said, inject some life into the on-ice part of the organization.

It's evident with Gainey's moves that he's trying to build a certain type of team. Everyone he's acquired works. Everyone that's left? Bu-bye Hossa and Hainsey. Now he needs to find the coach that complements that position and *demands* effort and then holds the players *responsible* when they fail to bring everything to the table.

I've heard recently that Julien was planning on benching a few players when Koivu and Kovalev get back, just to show them that he doesn't forget. What is that? Was the team really better while Zednik was out there on the ice doing nothing, rather than sitting in the press box while a rookie worked his butt off in his place and created oh so much more?

It's time for a change here. Yeah, when the two injury buddies come back there will most certainly be a change in things on the ice. People WILL be more accountable because Koivu demands that himself. But if the players start performing better when Koivu comes back, then maybe HE should be the coach. I mean, why would his return make players be accountable when Julien is there to make people accountable now?

(On the other hand, that goes a *long* way in showing just what kind of leader Koivu is. Look at the team's effort with him in and out of the lineup.)

[Tony_]

When I was listening to the beginning of the Pens - Sabres game on TSN, one guy made an interesting comment.

He said "The great thing about Michel Therrien becoming the coach of the Pens is that he was their coach in their minor league team in the AHL and he knows his players and knows who can cut it or not."

Then it got me thinking, did Claude Julien coach the Habs' minor team at one point? Doesn't he know the players? He has Jarvis has an assistant, I mean common this doesn't make sense why they get so little ice time despite them actually producing.

[Tony_]

Originally posted by DMX6990

So a coach derserve to get fire because he's not playing guys that shouldn't even be in the NHL right now. Yeah, that make lots sense. Last time i check the Montreal Canadians are playing in the NHL not AHL. If you want to develop young players, let them get ice time in the AHL not in the NHL. BTW, look around the league, most team have players that only get a few minutes. So, thinking that firing Julien will solve this so called problem of not playing the rookies, you guys may be sadly in for a shock, when the new coach uses the same approach. It's called playing your best players. Just because you have a uniform on, doesn't automatically assure you 15 minutes of ice time.

If you think that Ribeiro, Dagenais, Zednik, Ryder and Bulis are the Habs' best players right now then you are in for a shock.

If anything, it's the freakin' rookies who are going on the ice and are busting their asses off to score goals or to make things happen. Like I said before, everything Perezhogin is on the ice for example you see him playing with his heart on his sleeve and trying anything to spark up some offence.

Then there's guys like Dagenais who bitched and moaned for ice time in the beginning of the season because he was constantly being scratched and when he does get the minutes he had asked for what does he do? He sits his ass in the slot waiting for someone to make him a pass and does nothing else. Doesn't even move to make himself an opening for the puck, he stands right between the opposing defence.

Edit: I didn't know if you heard this or not but last night during an interview Claude Julien actually called out Dagenais, Ribeiro, Zednik and Ryder (not sure about Bulis) because of their poor playing recently and said the way these guys have been playing is inacceptible in a time when their the ones who are supposed to elevate their game.

[Edited on 2005/12/17 by Tony]

[koivu-11]

Well iam really tierd so didnt read every post but umm , julien said it now hes singled out players and how he gave them many chances and they jst not doing there jobs so stop blaming him.

[KoZed]

Yeah, CJ said Ribs line (and named all 3 guys) and also Zednik are guys who are supposed to carry this club and they're not doing it. "They dont want to skate" he said.

That's not something CJ usually does, so his patience is probably wearing thin. Unless all players mentionned come out big against Minny, they'll probably going to get benched.

[DMX6990]

Originally posted by Tony

Originally posted by DMX6990

So a coach derserve to get fire because he's not playing guys that shouldn't even be in the NHL right now. Yeah, that make lots sense. Last time i check the Montreal Canadians are playing in the NHL not AHL. If you want to develop young players, let them get ice time in the AHL not in the NHL. BTW, look around the league, most team have players that only get a few minutes. So, thinking that firing Julien will solve this so called problem of not playing the rookies, you guys may be sadly in for a shock, when the new coach uses the same approach. It's called playing your best players. Just because you have a uniform on, doesn't automatically assure you 15 minutes of ice time.

If you think that Ribeiro, Dagenais, Zednik, Ryder and Bulis are the Habs' best players right now then you are in for a shock.

If anything, it's the freakin' rookies who are going on the ice and are busting their asses off to score goals or to make things happen. Like I said before, everything Perezhogin is on the ice for example you see him playing with his heart on his sleeve and trying anything to spark up some offence.

Then there's guys like Dagenais who bitched and moaned for ice time in the beginning of the season because he was constantly being scratched and when he does get the minutes he had asked for what does he do? He sits his ass in the slot waiting for someone to make him a pass and does nothing else. Doesn't even move to make himself an opening for the puck, he stands right between the opposing defence.

Edit: I didn't know if you heard this or not but last night during an interview Claude Julien actually called out Dagenais, Ribeiro, Zednik and Ryder (not sure about Bulis) because of their poor playing recently and said the way these guys have been playing is inacceptible in a time when their the ones who are supposed to elevate their game.

[Edited on 2005/12/17 by Tony]

So what's your point. Julien is doing what any coach would do, play your best players. But, if your best players aren't playing well then the team isn't going to win many games. So, for people to be blaming Julien, for not playing the rookie thinking that's the reason the team is losing are misguided. The team is losing not because the fourth line is not getting enough ice time. The team is losing because the best players our either hurt or not playing well.

[Tony_]

I'm just saying if the best players on the team are playing like crap, why bother giving then more ice time. It might not assure the team a win as you said it but the rookies are jumping on the ice and are playing to try to prove something that they can indeed be scoring threats. Of course, Julien doesn't play these guys. He plays his best players that are doing jack shit on the ice.

[smon]

It's just trust really. Julien is giving vets icetime because he they've earned his trust somehow.

Despite having coached the majority of the young guys down in Hamilton, they apparently haven't earned his trust at the big league level..and I'm not sure why.

But should he be fired? I'd say no. Will he be fired? At some point in his career, yes. Will it be soon? Hell's no.

[ch for life]

I voted fire him because I am getting sick and tired of all the inconsistency he has shown in his style..there is no method to his madness.

Players are not being held accountable for their mistakes or lack of effort and those that deserve are not getting their rewards.

That being said I like the man and think he could ( i hope ) turn it around..

Under no circumstances would I prefer Jarvis.

The only way this move would make sense is if you could bring in someone who is a true and instant upgrade over Julien.

The name TED NOLAN jumps instantly to mind.. but this can only happen in the off season.

[Pierre the Great]

Fire Julien?

You have to be off your rocker.

The reason the habs have been on the skids as of late is becaue of injuries. All teams get it I'm glad the team got it earlier in the earlier rather than come playoff time.

[Fanpuck33]

How long do we have to put up with his tactics?

How many 3rd period collapses will it take to show the man that you can't succeed if you only roll 3 forward lines and 2 defensive pairings. Hey Julien, guys get tired when they get too much ice time. You have 20 players dressed each game -USE THEM!

If Streit isn't good enough to be on the team, get him off it. Don't put him on the bench every night and let him just sit there. Same thing with Perezhogin. The kid has shown he can score, but he can't do it with 4 minutes a game.

[Tony]

How long do we have to put up with his tactics?

How many 3rd period collapses will it take to show the man that you can't succeed if you only roll 3 forward lines and 2 defensive pairings. Hey Julien, guys get tired when they get too much ice time. You have 20 players dressed each game -USE THEM!

If Streit isn't good enough to be on the team, get him off it. Don't put him on the bench every night and let him just sit there. Same thing with Perezhogin. The kid has shown he can score, but he can't do it with 4 minutes a game.

I completly agree - I'm starting to lose my patience on this. Same guys get all the ice time. I wouldn't mind if their scoring or making stuff happen (or trying to make stuff happen) but the more their on the ice the more they made bonehead plays.

It's getting really old and annoying. Claude Julien needs to put some structure back in the team.

[JMMR]

Tony and Fanpuck

We see eye to eye.

Julien needs to learn how to coach rookies. Although I know he is a good coach he has done fairly well this year he does not know how to instil confidence and he does not understand that confidence breed’s confidence. I remember watching Bowman coach Datsyk and Zetterberg in Detroit and they would make huge blunders, such as turnovers when they were the last man back to terrible late unnecessary penalty’s and almost ever single time after a brief discussion on the bench they were the very next players over the boards. K Rex Zhog anyone who is getting benched for a single blunder will when they are on the ice grip the stick harder, over think and not play their games of course they are nervous out there and will continue to make the same mistakes unless Julien (COACHES THEM and tells them what they are supposed to do) But not only that they must be given the opportunity to redeem themselves.

[habschris]

Tony and Fanpuck

We see eye to eye.

Julien needs to learn how to coach rookies. Although I know he is a good coach he has done fairly well this year he does not know how to instil confidence and he does not understand that confidence breed’s confidence. I remember watching Bowman coach Datsyk and Zetterberg in Detroit and they would make huge blunders, such as turnovers when they were the last man back to terrible late unnecessary penalty’s and almost ever single time after a brief discussion on the bench they were the very next players over the boards. K Rex Zhog anyone who is getting benched for a single blunder will when they are on the ice grip the stick harder, over think and not play their games of course they are nervous out there and will continue to make the same mistakes unless Julien (COACHES THEM and tells them what they are supposed to do) But not only that they must be given the opportunity to redeem themselves.

I agree, especially about the benchings when we have players like rivet, souray, bouillon making huge mistakes in there own end, it's not just Komi. I'd like to see him bench Rivet and souray a bit, see if they play better. Perez atleast plays hard when he is out there, he does take some bad penalties but almost evry player on this team seems to do that. All the players should be held accountable, not just the young ones. Until the core players change on this team, this team will never be more then a possible 7th or 6th seed and never have a real shot. This team has played this way for 3 coaches now, it's time to hold some players accountable. Hire ted Nolan. Atleast he'll try to make them play hard.

[Tony]

How about Larry Robinson instead of Ted Nolan?

[habschris]

I would put Larry Robinson as a defensive coach, Ted Nolan can Motivate. God knows the D can use a coach to teach them how to win a 1 on 1 battle. Or make a good quick pass out of the zone. I think Robinson is more suited as an assistant coach.

[dark_faerie87]

Heheh, perhaps Bob should give Scotty a call? The winningest coach back in Montreal...would be interesting to see.

[Tony]

I'm not surprised if Scotty gets a call to come back every week.

[CoRvInA]

I never thought myself as a Player or coach basher and I aint gonna start .. as a Scientist I go for the clues and indices that will back up hypothesis.. etc..

In plain english facts ...Not made up ones Real ones... I aint saying CJ is the worst coach in Habs history far from it... I'm saying unless Bg makes some changes (which he wont) this year to the roster we gotta do with what wee got and managing what we've got is what's in question here

just one point! YEs the rookie double standard big one! but its not an indice of poor coaching ... could be alot more behind that!

tonight again for the 11000 time Ribeiro caught up too long on ice! how do you get that into his skull .. its not like its Kovalev or Lemieux out there! Bench the Hard headed bastard! Its happening over and over! and this is undeniable! I'm Afraid Julien is too good for these few ungratefull bunch!

by the way Kovalev is getting Pissed off! HE didnt shoot nor did he play to his max! AND LIKE WHY WOULD HE with a bunch of Free rollers!!\\\\

DAMN IM HUNGRY IM GOING HOME! ENOUGH SAID!!!

[habschris]

Well i'm glad your a scientist, I am a behavior analyst. I like the facts as well, That's some of the points i was making, Julien may be a fine coach, however punishing the players who make mistakes is fine, however like you said players like Ribiero, dags, even though he scored last night, rivet, souray and the other D cough up the puck just as much if not more then Komi, streit who immediatly get benched. It sends a bad message. It 's ok to play bad as long as you have been here a while. I think you would see a better team reaction if like you stated they started benching everyone who deserved it. There is no confidence in the rookies and young players, who if nothing else play hard every night which is something alot of veterans don't on this team. I watched the game last night and if it wasn't for Theo, they would have got hammered. Tampa played the whole night in there zone. Higgins, Kovalev and Bulis played well.

[zumpano21]

I think it may be a little too early for all this talk. We've been decimated by injuries and some key dressing room figures are still out. It may take a while to get the chemistry working again. And besides, if you're going to pick a time of year to slump, this is it. We got off to a blazing start which has kept us in playoff contention the whole while and we can only go up from here. I don't see much of a problem just yet.

There are goals that Julien must meet though:

1 - Playoff berth

2 - see #1

The only real problem might be if Julien has lost the dressing room. i.e. players second guessing his decisions, openly challenging his authority in front of other players. So far there's no suggestion of this happening. I would just hang tight and wait for us to peak again in the early spring.

Oh yeah, and Robinson won't be coaching anytime soon. He's got health problems.

Same could be said for Nolan. He's been badmouthed so badly by that raging alcoholic, also known as John Muckler, around the league that no one will give him a call.