What goes around comes around Carolina pay back Kotkaniemi offer sheet

[dlbalr]

10 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Weber got a completely bonkers contract after Philly offer-shat him. But I didn’t then see a wave of D-men getting paid huge dollars until age 42. Because everyone could see that was nuts. Same logic should apply, surely.

 

To be fair, the contract that Weber signed was outlawed a few months later in the CBA so there weren't any other opportunities to sign a deal like that.

[Peter Puck]

  If we match then next year Carolina will offer sheet Suzuki for 10 million.  We would have to match that and let KK go.  So Carolina ends up with KK and keeps their picks.  We end up paying KK 6 million for 1 year hoping he breaks out (which I doubt he does in this season).  

[DON]

Dvorak mentioned by Engels, any other centres possibly (or realistically) available in trade might fill KKs role, if dont match?

[ch_nl]

Whit the current Cap space situation, matching Carolina's offer is not the correct move, unless Bergevin still regard Kotkaniemi as a future franchise player. Suzuki and Caufield has both passed Kotkaniemi on that scale in my opinion.

 

I'm also wondering if the signing had anything to do with Kotkaniemi lost his pal Mete?

 

Take the picks, and go for Eichel!

 

[DON]

3 minutes ago, ch_nl said:

Take the picks, and go for Eichel!

Would still need a centre for this season, as that guy needs surgery, doesnt he?

[Dalhabs]

Getting a 1st and a 3rd might even be the best "offer" we will get for him.

What Ive read about kk it seems he is abit whiny when benched/sent to minors.

I think he believes he is better than he really is and that might also hinder his development.

[Fanpuck33]

32 minutes ago, Peter Puck said:

  If we match then next year Carolina will offer sheet Suzuki for 10 million.  We would have to match that and let KK go.  So Carolina ends up with KK and keeps their picks.  We end up paying KK 6 million for 1 year hoping he breaks out (which I doubt he does in this season).  

 

Suzuki will be extended long before it gets to that point.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

32 minutes ago, ch_nl said:

Whit the current Cap space situation, matching Carolina's offer is not the correct move, unless Bergevin still regard Kotkaniemi as a future franchise player. Suzuki and Caufield has both passed Kotkaniemi on that scale in my opinion.

 

I'm also wondering if the signing had anything to do with Kotkaniemi lost his pal Mete?

 

Take the picks, and go for Eichel!

 

 

KK would have been a big piece in the quest to get Eichel, a late 1st round pick is far less attractive.  Much less chance to get Eichel without KK as part of the deal.  Now you would be looking at Suzuki or Caulfield. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

1 hour ago, Dalhabs said:

Getting a 1st and a 3rd might even be the best "offer" we will get for him.

What Ive read about kk it seems he is abit whiny when benched/sent to minors.

I think he believes he is better than he really is and that might also hinder his development.

 

I have been a bit of a KK skeptic…not ravingly so, but I remain uncertain whether he will ever become more than a good 3rd-line C. Certainly at the NHL level he has never shown any hint of being more than this. And while he is indeed very young, he was brought up much too early and handed a roster spot without earning it - never a good thing. Certainly, his youth in no way means that he is destined to become an impact C in the league.

 

This is a really, really tough call for MB, in my opinion. He can let KK walk and do a bona-fide “tank” season; he can let KK walk and then do something radical to fix the hole, like try to get Eichel; or he can match and carry a ridiculous cap hit though the year AND be stuck in a position of having to offer KK the same money to avoid him going UFA the year after. 

 

It’s the last consideration that is the problem. I really doubt whether KK will ever be worth huge money. We cannot afford to end up paying $6 mil for Lars Eller on a longer term basis.

 

Better to take the picks and work with options (1) or (2).

 

 

[GHT120]

1 hour ago, Peter Puck said:

  If we match then next year Carolina will offer sheet Suzuki for 10 million.  We would have to match that and let KK go.  So Carolina ends up with KK and keeps their picks ...

How do they "end up with KK"?   KK would be a RFA next summer and the habs would try to get a reasonable extension or trade him before July 1st ... no guarantee he ends up in Carolina unless they (a) trade for him or (b) KK goes RFA and they again send him a ridiculous offer sheet (in a summer they have Niederreiter & Trochek as UFAs and  Necas, Bear & Deangelo as RFAs) 

[dlbalr]

1 hour ago, Peter Puck said:

  If we match then next year Carolina will offer sheet Suzuki for 10 million.  We would have to match that and let KK go.  So Carolina ends up with KK and keeps their picks.  We end up paying KK 6 million for 1 year hoping he breaks out (which I doubt he does in this season).  

 

Carolina doesn't have a magic money fountain.  They already have over $56 million tied up in 12 players for 2022-23; I don't think they can make the money work to add a $10 million player in there.  Besides, it looks like Aho is their internal limit for highest salary based on the Svechnikov contract and the low-balling of Hamilton.

 

1 hour ago, DON said:

Dvorak mentioned by Engels, any other centres possibly (or realistically) available in trade might fill KKs role, if dont match?

 

Dvorak is definitely available although the asking price is believed to be a 1st and a 1st-equivalent prospect. 

 

Evgeny Kuznetsov has been in trade speculation for a while although he carries a $7.8M cap hit for four years; the Habs would need to send a significant salary offset back. 

 

I know Sean Monahan is available (he has been for months now) although without a centre to move back, I don't know how reasonable that option would be. 

 

The Strome brothers are available.  Dylan doesn't really have a spot in Chicago but has a $3.6M qualifying offer next summer that looks a little pricey.  He has been shopped for a while now.  Ryan is the Rangers' number two centre and isn't in their long-term plans.  If they were getting Eichel and needed to move money, that could be a stopgap though not an ideal one.

 

Alex Kerfoot in Toronto might be available but I'm not sure the Leafs would want to move him to a division rival.  He's more of a 3C than a 2C (and they're going to probably use him on the wing as it stands).

 

Chris Tierney is someone that has played the type of stopgap role they might have to settle for but he's more of a 3 than a 2.

 

1 hour ago, ch_nl said:

I'm also wondering if the signing had anything to do with Kotkaniemi lost his pal Mete?

 

Players lose friends all the time in professional sports due to trades or someone leaving in free agency.  Kotkaniemi wouldn't use that as a reason to sign the offer sheet.  His reason is simple - he's going to get about 2.5x his actual value for next season with the $6.1 million contract.  It's hard to pass that up.

[GHT120]

1 hour ago, DON said:

Would still need a centre for this season, as that guy needs surgery, doesnt he?

(a) IMO they already needed a top 6 centre to be able to expect to be a playoff contender this season, and (b) Eichel's' surgery is, from what I've read, about an 8-week recovery ... so maybe early/mid-November return to games if he has it soon (including a mini-training camp to get near game shape)

[dlbalr]

3 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

How do they "end up with KK"?   KK would be a RFA next summer and the habs would try to get a reasonable extension or trade him before July 1st ...

 

The trade restriction is 12 months from the date of matching so he wouldn't be able to be traded until probably September of next year.  At that time, he'll already be signed to a new deal, either an extension or something through arbitration which is done in August.

[dlbalr]

Just now, GHT120 said:

(a) IMO they already needed a top 6 centre to be able to expect to be a playoff contender this season, and (b) Eichel's' surgery is, from what I've read, about an 8-week recovery ... so maybe early/mid-November return to games if he has it soon (including a mini-training camp to get near game shape)

 

The surgery Eichel wants is about a 2-month recovery.  If the acquiring team doesn't want him to get it (it has never been done on an NHL player), then it's closer to 6 months.

[huzer]

The Canes offseason priorities seem to be pretty messed up "let's get back at the Habs" while Hamilton walks, Nejdovolic is dumped basically for free, they sign DeAngelo, sign a goofy offer sheet that apparently puts them over the cap. It's weird to me that a move is predicated on proving a point, and not a hockey move. Of course, with a signed offer sheet in hand, they could very well have an extension discussed. But, hey, it's fun to talk hockey again after deafening quiet of the past few weeks!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

On another note, it sure is a good thing we made the Finals last season. Imagine if this had happened, and we’d lost Danault, without having had that redemptive run? Holy depressing, Batman.

[GHT120]

1 minute ago, dlbalr said:

The surgery Eichel wants is about a 2-month recovery.  If the acquiring team doesn't want him to get it (it has never been done on an NHL player), then it's closer to 6 months.

 

Just some info:

 

Medical website:  Two professional athletes, 20 semiprofessionals, 24 hobby athletes, and 5 patients with a very low activity level were treated. The median time to resumption of sporting activity was 4 weeks after surgery. All professionals and semiprofessionals recovered to their previous activity level.

 

Chris Weidman had disk replacement surgery about 5 years ago and returned to MMA training and fighting ... he has had 7 fights since his surgery ... not much success but the neck has survived what is generally harsher treatment than play in the NHL.

 

Neither is proof, but indicative the surgery is a viable option ... doubt Eichel would risk his career if he wasn't confident of success ... and EVERY surgery at some point was the first performed on a NHL player.

[GHT120]

15 minutes ago, huzer said:

The Canes offseason priorities seem to be pretty messed up "let's get back at the Habs" while Hamilton walks, Nejdovolic is dumped basically for free, they sign DeAngelo, sign a goofy offer sheet that apparently puts them over the cap. It's weird to me that a move is predicated on proving a point, and not a hockey move. Of course, with a signed offer sheet in hand, they could very well have an extension discussed. But, hey, it's fun to talk hockey again after deafening quiet of the past few weeks!

I expect this may all have been driven much more by owner Dundon than GM Waddell ... if this was a key part of Waddell's off-season strategy I expect the offer would have been made sooner to avoid the risk of another team making an offer (sheet or trade).

[GHT120]

25 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

The trade restriction is 12 months from the date of matching so he wouldn't be able to be traded until probably September of next year.  At that time, he'll already be signed to a new deal, either an extension or something through arbitration which is done in August.

Thanks, forgot it is a calendar (12 months) rather than a "season" restriction.

[DON]

24 minutes ago, huzer said:

 It's weird to me that a move is predicated on proving a point, and not a hockey move. 

Yes, the $20.00 bit seems pretty bush-league.

Or, maybe offer really had nothing to do Oho and was 100% on wanting KK and seeing Habs would be in a pinch to match?

[sbhatt]

The more I think about it, the more I'm pleased with it (assuming MB does the right thing and takes the picks).  I felt we needed an upgrade at 2C, and have very little hope that KK can become a solid 2C.  IMO packaging up those picks and a prospect to acquire an upgraded 2C makes the team better.

[Habsfan89]

9 minutes ago, sbhatt said:

The more I think about it, the more I'm pleased with it (assuming MB does the right thing and takes the picks).  I felt we needed an upgrade at 2C, and have very little hope that KK can become a solid 2C.  IMO packaging up those picks and a prospect to acquire an upgraded 2C makes the team better.

Yeah but the question is can you get more than a 1st and 3rd round pick for Kotkaniemi? If you think you can get more you got to keep him. If you think that's more than you would get you take the picks. 

 

 Eichel is available would buffalo take the 2 first round picks plus prospects for him now?

Or do you call up Winnipeg offer them Carolina 1st for Dubios?   Both opinions are upgrades over Kotkaniemi. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

6 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Yeah but the question is can you get more than a 1st and 3rd round pick for Kotkaniemi? If you think you can get more you got to keep him. If you think that's more than you would get you take the picks. 

 

 Eichel is available would buffalo take the 2 first round picks plus prospects for him now?

Or do you call up Winnipeg offer them Carolina 1st for Dubios?   Both opinions are upgrades over Kotkaniemi. 

 

It would take a lot more than Carolina's 1st round pick to get Dubois. A lot more. 

[hab29RETIRED]

Let’s get some perspective here. How old is KK?  He just turned 21!! This should have been his 2nd NHL season, and we are creeping on him for not showing he can be a 2nd line centre???  He is one year younger than Suzuki, but was rushed in earlier into the league.

 

Right now, we aren’t sure that Suzuki THIS year will be up to being a number one centre - looked great in that playoffs last year (as he did in 2020), but he has not shown he will be a CONSISTENT top line centre YET, when trams will be coming in with a game plan for dealing with him. He had a large stint last year where he looked lost, and he looked dynamite at other times. The best from Suzuki is still yet to come.

 

KK is a year younger. We have zero centre depth. If we need to clear cap room NEXt year you do it by unloading are three carbon copy dmen (Edmondson, Chairot, Savard), you move a Drouin who is making over $5M, or go for a heart transplant by moving a guy who has been the heart and soul Gallagher), but is clearly breaking down. Or you even look at going to Price, who hopefully comes back strong and is dominant and say do you want to win a cup - and move him.  What you don’t do is give up a 3rd overall pick who just turned 21 and also shown he can be dominant - just hasn’t show that he can be consistent. Not when you have zero centre depth. We went over two friggin decades of zero centre depth. Now that we may have it we want to give it up for the chance to draft another Schrebak, Jullsson, Tinordi, or Mccarron???

 

we are not a playoff team with KK next year. Without a suitable replacement, we are not going to be a playoff team for thr next 2 or 3 years.  Forget the pretty strong Eastern conference.   Does anytime think we are as good as Tampa, Florida, Toronto, Boston next year?? Foe a wildcard are we going to be better than the Caps, NYI, Canes, pens, Phil?

 

we already gave up a stud #1 pick in Sergechev to basically add a francophone winger and HOPE that he turned into a centre we have needed foe 25 years. Well that was a dumb move. Now we want to say pass on a 21 year old centre, because our GM was too dumb to sign him before he overpaid for spare parties, before locking up what we are hoping is our core????  REALLY???

 

ibalso think the Fxck KK for signing with the canes are juvenile, asinine, and basically stupid.  that wasn’t the attitude of Canes fans with Aho!

 

this problem is because our Gam loves poker and the take it or leave it approach to negotiation and fxcked up a RFA offer. Blaming Kal right now is dumb. Not making up for the mistake of rushing him and gaming on him over a late round 1st and 3rd would be even dumber.

[hab29RETIRED]

24 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Yeah but the question is can you get more than a 1st and 3rd round pick for Kotkaniemi? If you think you can get more you got to keep him. If you think that's more than you would get you take the picks. 

 

 Eichel is available would buffalo take the 2 first round picks plus prospects for him now?

Or do you call up Winnipeg offer them Carolina 1st for Dubios?   Both opinions are upgrades over Kotkaniemi. 

We may be a lottery puck next year. Do you really want to give that up, not knowing when Eichal is coming back? And I don’t see Buffalo making a move without at least two of Suzuki, Romanov, and Caufield.

 

at least one of those three would have to be added for Dubois.