REV-G Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 IMHO, there is no way we should match Carolina's offer. Why should we pay KK $6M this year and nearly that amount next year. Over $11M in two years. Why should we make him the 2nd highest paid forward on our team when he's been a 3d liner and was a healthy scratch at the beginning and end of the playoffs. Why should we gamble he might get much better quicker when he may not. Why upset the room with a player getting more than almost every other forward playing ahead of him. Why pay a player much much more than what he's worth when it seems he may not want to be here. Wouldn't it make more sense to take the 1st and 3d and add our 1st and maybe more and go for Eichel or another good centre probably better than KK and upgrade our team? On a side note, I wonder what we would do if we were in his shoes. These would be my thoughts. 1. If I sign this one year offer sheet, no matter what team I play for, all the other players, fans and media will know I'm not worth that amount of money and it's probably been done more out of payback from a rich owner than anything else. If I don't do really well do I want to, and can I handle, all the comments and criticism from opposing players and fans for the next year? 2. What will accepting this offer sheet do for my career and reputation for the next 5 years in the NHL? 3. If a normal contract for me would be in the $2.5 - $3M range, is the extra $3M or so worth what I'm going to go through? 4. If Montreal matches, what will I face and bear from my teammates, coaches, fans and media if I have another year like the one I just had in Montreal? 5. If I have a average year again, and Carolina doesn't give me a qualifying offer next year and I'm a free agent at 22 years old, will my reputation among the players in the NHL be affected. So personally, I don't know if the extra $2-3M for a young, unproven NHL player with a seemingly good career ahead of him would be worth all the baggage that may attach itself to him because of this. If I was his dad, and healthy, I would have to do a lot of thinking before I encouraged him to sign that offer sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 3 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said: How to fix this.... Let Kotkaniemi go Offer Dahlin a 5 year 6mil offer sheet Then you trade Evans, Chiarot, Armia to PHX for Dvorak PHX would be saving 1.5mil in this deal. Team would then look like this next year Hoffman / Suzuki / Caufeild Toffoli / Dvorak / Anderson Drouin / Poehling / Gallagher Lehkonen / Paquette / Perrault Dahlin / Petry Edmondson / Savard Romanov / Kulak Price Allen what mod you using? I want the same on my NHL2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan89 Posted August 31, 2021 Author Share Posted August 31, 2021 20 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said: what mod you using? I want the same on my NHL2021 by 6mil I mean per year 30mil total. And with PHX not having a home next year NHL is going to cut payroll. That trade saves them money. You can throw in a draft pick if it makes you happy 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 44 minutes ago, REV-G said: IMHO, there is no way we should match Carolina's offer. Why should we pay KK $6M this year and nearly that amount next year. Over $11M in two years. Why should we make him the 2nd highest paid forward on our team when he's been a 3d liner and was a healthy scratch at the beginning and end of the playoffs. Why should we gamble he might get much better quicker when he may not. Why upset the room with a player getting more than almost every other forward playing ahead of him. Why pay a player much much more than what he's worth when it seems he may not want to be here. Wouldn't it make more sense to take the 1st and 3d and add our 1st and maybe more and go for Eichel or another good centre probably better than KK and upgrade our team? On a side note, I wonder what we would do if we were in his shoes. These would be my thoughts. 1. If I sign this one year offer sheet, no matter what team I play for, all the other players, fans and media will know I'm not worth that amount of money and it's probably been done more out of payback from a rich owner than anything else. If I don't do really well do I want to, and can I handle, all the comments and criticism from opposing players and fans for the next year? 2. What will accepting this offer sheet do for my career and reputation for the next 5 years in the NHL? 3. If a normal contract for me would be in the $2.5 - $3M range, is the extra $3M or so worth what I'm going to go through? 4. If Montreal matches, what will I face and bear from my teammates, coaches, fans and media if I have another year like the one I just had in Montreal? 5. If I have a average year again, and Carolina doesn't give me a qualifying offer next year and I'm a free agent at 22 years old, will my reputation among the players in the NHL be affected. So personally, I don't know if the extra $2-3M for a young, unproven NHL player with a seemingly good career ahead of him would be worth all the baggage that may attach itself to him because of this. If I was his dad, and healthy, I would have to do a lot of thinking before I encouraged him to sign that offer sheet. I’ve often shared this view that players who sign on to grossly overpaid contracts really should think twice. A good player who makes $5 mil per year is wealthy and beloved by the city he plays in. A good player who makes $8 mil per year is a cap millstone and comes in for unrelenting criticism. Remember Luongo? “My contract sucks.” His huge deal resulted in 2-3 ruined seasons for him. But that said, I think you exaggerate the ordeal KK specifically is setting himself up for. It’s a one-year deal. So even if he bombs, fans are not going to be ripping out his kidneys because it does not hamstring the organization in any way going forward. As for his “reputation,” all the offer sheet does is enhance his stature as a high-ceiling young player (a rep about which I am personally sceptical, but that’s beside the point). Meanwhile he makes $3 million more in a single season. The Carolina players may not be happy with management’s moves. I wouldn’t be. But would I proceed to take it out on KK? No way. I would welcome him to the team, because he’s a teammate and we do better if he succeeds than if he is ostracized. So yes, this does put some pressure on KK to produce. But it’s hardly likely to ruin his life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 doesn't KK have to be qualified for the same amount ($6.1M) next year by whoever signs him? and does the trade restriction apply for either team for 365 days? That is what makes it hard to digest. KK at $6.1M for one year is one thing, but two years of guaranteed $6.1M regardless of performance is too much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 15 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said: doesn't KK have to be qualified for the same amount ($6.1M) next year by whoever signs him? and does the trade restriction apply for either team for 365 days? That is what makes it hard to digest. KK at $6.1M for one year is one thing, but two years of guaranteed $6.1M regardless of performance is too much Yep, totally agree. ّI could handle a gross overpay for one season. But being obliged to re-up him at that rate or lose him as UFA? Forget it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 I do not blame Kotkaniemi for accepting the offer, it is "minty" like he says... but a good deal for whatever team signs him. I hope the Hurricanes get what they deserve in KK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 For what it’s worth, Laraque is reporting the Hurricanes have an extension worked out for long term at $4m AAV. Wouldn’t that be against the CBA? They can’t officially resign him until next year anyway, it would make no sense to agree to a contract like that at this stage anyway. Not sure how believable his report really is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 33 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Yep, totally agree. ّI could handle a gross overpay for one season. But being obliged to re-up him at that rate or lose him as UFA? Forget it. That is only true if Kotkianiemi is comfortable playing every season on a one year deal. Very few athletes are willing to go for an extended period playing on one year deals where there is more money now, but is gone completely with a bad injury or poor play that results in the team not tendering him a qualifying offer. It is far more likely that if he players relatively well, he signs for 2 or 3 years at the going rate for a player of his age and performance and instead of waiting for a qualifying offer every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 12 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said: For what it’s worth, Laraque is reporting the Hurricanes have an extension worked out for long term at $4m AAV. Wouldn’t that be against the CBA? They can’t officially resign him until next year anyway, it would make no sense to agree to a contract like that at this stage anyway. Not sure how believable his report really is. I do not remember Laraque ever breaking a rumor that was true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 I fully expect on the 4th, Bergevin will announce a trade, and thank Kotkaniemi for his years of service, and that will be the end of it. The Habs aren't going to get into a Battle Royale WWE style war or words with the Canes and their social media people. I don't expect a peep from the team until then. Generally speaking, though, I'm a horrible prognosticator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 58 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said: That is only true if Kotkianiemi is comfortable playing every season on a one year deal. Very few athletes are willing to go for an extended period playing on one year deals where there is more money now, but is gone completely with a bad injury or poor play that results in the team not tendering him a qualifying offer. It is far more likely that if he players relatively well, he signs for 2 or 3 years at the going rate for a player of his age and performance and instead of waiting for a qualifying offer every year. I think you may have missed the point that KK is an RFA and has to be qualified. the NHL rule is that he cannot be qualified for less than this year Where I am not 100%, but almost certain, is that neither the Habs or the Canes can trade him for the new Caleb far year, which means that either team will need to qualify him for no less that this year’s annual average salary the deadline to qualify a player is before the end of the calendar year Which means that he performs poorly, the worst contract he can be offered next year is one year at $6.1M; or he can be left unqualified before the end of the one calendar year from now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 that was horribly worded I hope you get what I’m writing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 3 hours ago, Habsfan89 said: How to fix this.... Let Kotkaniemi go Offer Dahlin a 5 year 6mil offer sheet Then you trade Evans, Chiarot, Armia to PHX for Dvorak PHX would be saving 1.5mil in this deal. Team would then look like this next year Hoffman / Suzuki / Caufeild Toffoli / Dvorak / Anderson Drouin / Poehling / Gallagher Lehkonen / Paquette / Perrault Dahlin / Petry Edmondson / Savard Romanov / Kulak Price Allen Buffalo would match that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 hour ago, huzer said: I fully expect on the 4th, Bergevin will announce a trade, and thank Kotkaniemi for his years of service, and that will be the end of it. The Habs aren't going to get into a Battle Royale WWE style war or words with the Canes and their social media people. I don't expect a peep from the team until then. Generally speaking, though, I'm a horrible prognosticator. By trade, you mean someone else and not KK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said: I think you may have missed the point that KK is an RFA and has to be qualified. the NHL rule is that he cannot be qualified for less than this year Where I am not 100%, but almost certain, is that neither the Habs or the Canes can trade him for the new Caleb far year, which means that either team will need to qualify him for no less that this year’s annual average salary the deadline to qualify a player is before the end of the calendar year Which means that he performs poorly, the worst contract he can be offered next year is one year at $6.1M; or he can be left unqualified before the end of the one calendar year from now If the Habs announce whether they are matching the offer sheet on Saturday, whichever team he ends up with cannot trade him until September 4, 2022 Qualifying offers have to be tendered in a CBA defined period towards the end of June, so the team will be able to base their decision on the full 21/22 season's performance ... apparently players can be offered slightly less than their previous salary if it is through arbitration, but it seems the success rate of that tactic is somewhere from low to zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meller93 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Sorry if this has been touched on already, but can KKs next contract come in at less than 6.1m? I had heard somewhere it can come in a bit less but didn’t know where to find the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 3 minutes ago, Meller93 said: Sorry if this has been touched on already, but can KKs next contract come in at less than 6.1m? I had heard somewhere it can come in a bit less but didn’t know where to find the info. some one mentioned 85% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meller93 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 minute ago, alfredoh2009 said: some one mentioned 85% Thanks. If anyone knows a link to that info it would be much appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 43 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said: By trade, you mean someone else and not KK? Correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 51 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said: some one mentioned 85% I believe that’s just for the qualifying offer. If the qualifying offer isn’t accepted, he can sign for anything from the league minimum to league maximum. If it is accepted it’s a 1 year deal at the previous year’s actual salary, or down to 85% of it. It’s one of the interesting bits of the qualifying offer. O’Reilly and the whole Colorado/Calgary fiasco was a good example of it. The offer was something like $6m AAV (these numbers are wrong) over 2 years with $4m first year and $8m second year. The deterrent was he was still RFA at the end and would of required an $8m qualifying offer to qualify. This is not factoring in Calgary’s misunderstanding of the CBA would of costed them O’Reilly and the picks for the qualifying offer. I could be wrong on this as I’m not a CBA guru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 6 hours ago, Habsfan89 said: Offer Dahlin a 5 year 6mil offer sheet Then you trade Evans, Chiarot, Armia to PHX for Dvorak PHX would be saving 1.5mil in this deal. If Dahlin was willing to sign for that money, he'd be under contract with Buffalo already. Arizona's asking price is futures based, a 1st and a first-equivalent. They also want to cut money. Evans, Chiarot, and Armia combined make more than Dvorak and none of those are a first-round pick or a piece worth a first rounder. 4 hours ago, TurdBurglar said: For what it’s worth, Laraque is reporting the Hurricanes have an extension worked out for long term at $4m AAV. Wouldn’t that be against the CBA? They can’t officially resign him until next year anyway, it would make no sense to agree to a contract like that at this stage anyway. Not sure how believable his report really is. As Kotkaniemi was a restricted free agent and thus could negotiate with other teams, Carolina could discuss the framework of a hypothetical long-term deal. Can it be agreed on entirely? Officially no but unofficially, it can basically be done. 1 hour ago, Meller93 said: Thanks. If anyone knows a link to that info it would be much appreciated! The 85% piece is a CBA mechanism for club-elected salary arbitration (and can only be done once on a player). A player can willingly agree to less than his qualifying offer and there is no limit on how big the drop can be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 3 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said: I think you may have missed the point that KK is an RFA and has to be qualified. the NHL rule is that he cannot be qualified for less than this year Where I am not 100%, but almost certain, is that neither the Habs or the Canes can trade him for the new Caleb far year, which means that either team will need to qualify him for no less that this year’s annual average salary the deadline to qualify a player is before the end of the calendar year Which means that he performs poorly, the worst contract he can be offered next year is one year at $6.1M; or he can be left unqualified before the end of the one calendar year from now I haven't missed that point at all. There doesn't have to be a qualifying offer made if the team who owns his rights next year works out a contract with him. If a team he is content playing for offers him a 3 year deal at a salary he and his agent feel is fair, he will more than likely take that deal. With the ever present risk of career ending/altering injuries in pro sports, very few athletes are willing to play on a series of one year deals, which is the only way he will be making 6 million on his next contract unless he puts up a season worthy of such a salary. Most players are going to take 12 million guaranteed over 3 years rather than hoping they will be able to get a 6 million deal every year. Sure, he might make 18 million in those same 3 years. He also might have a terrible season and end up making league minimum after the team doesn't qualify him, in which case it would take 6+ seasons to make back the 6 million he lost by not taking the longer deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Another report saying the Habs are sniffing around the centre market: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 7 minutes ago, dlbalr said: Another report saying the Habs are sniffing around the centre market: I thinks this is a great move. Use the 1st and the 3rd, maybe sweeten the pot with their 1st and a prospect. See what bites they get. Everything is worth exploring at this point. If all else fails, match the offer sheet, which I think is a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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