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What goes around comes around Carolina pay back Kotkaniemi offer sheet


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15 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

Or ... MB's hardball negotiations with KK prevented a bridge deal that would have avoided the 'Canes having the opportunity to make the offer.

Much like it did with Subban. Kotkaniemi is galchenyuk 2.0. When I say that what I mean is how we handle Kotkaniemi development is the same as galchenyuk.  We dropped the ball on both of them.

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The negativity is crazy against MB... how quickly the knives come out for the GM of the year nominee...

 

Who in there right mind would turn down an offer 3 times what they are worth? Nobody! Especially a Finn who has no ties to Montreal... but for being drafted.

 

Where fans mad at Aho for signing with MTL and hold a grudge? Our freakin captain Weber signed an offer sheet and he's regarded as one of the great man of hockey!

 

Give your head a shake... KK has done nothing wrong and will gladly ay in MTL next season at 6.1 as well as next year. 

 

Lets be realistic here. MB will match and adjust the CAP accordingly. Or he will decline and take the picks and then swing for the fences on a trade. Either way summer has been fun!

 

I personally am ok with the habs going young down the middle... give the kids a chance to prove themselves and if it fails we get a better pick in a deep draft. The thing is I think we will be good still!

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21 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Let’s get some perspective here. How old is KK?  He just turned 21!! This should have been his 2nd NHL season, and we are creeping on him for not showing he can be a 2nd line centre???  He is one year younger than Suzuki, but was rushed in earlier into the league.

 

Right now, we aren’t sure that Suzuki THIS year will be up to being a number one centre - looked great in that playoffs last year (as he did in 2020), but he has not shown he will be a CONSISTENT top line centre YET, when trams will be coming in with a game plan for dealing with him. He had a large stint last year where he looked lost, and he looked dynamite at other times. The best from Suzuki is still yet to come.

 

KK is a year younger. We have zero centre depth. If we need to clear cap room NEXt year you do it by unloading are three carbon copy dmen (Edmondson, Chairot, Savard), you move a Drouin who is making over $5M, or go for a heart transplant by moving a guy who has been the heart and soul Gallagher), but is clearly breaking down. Or you even look at going to Price, who hopefully comes back strong and is dominant and say do you want to win a cup - and move him.  What you don’t do is give up a 3rd overall pick who just turned 21 and also shown he can be dominant - just hasn’t show that he can be consistent. Not when you have zero centre depth. We went over two friggin decades of zero centre depth. Now that we may have it we want to give it up for the chance to draft another Schrebak, Jullsson, Tinordi, or Mccarron???

 

we are not a playoff team with KK next year. Without a suitable replacement, we are not going to be a playoff team for thr next 2 or 3 years.  Forget the pretty strong Eastern conference.   Does anytime think we are as good as Tampa, Florida, Toronto, Boston next year?? Foe a wildcard are we going to be better than the Caps, NYI, Canes, pens, Phil?

 

we already gave up a stud #1 pick in Sergechev to basically add a francophone winger and HOPE that he turned into a centre we have needed foe 25 years. Well that was a dumb move. Now we want to say pass on a 21 year old centre, because our GM was too dumb to sign him before he overpaid for spare parties, before locking up what we are hoping is our core????  REALLY???

 

ibalso think the Fxck KK for signing with the canes are juvenile, asinine, and basically stupid.  that wasn’t the attitude of Canes fans with Aho!

 

this problem is because our Gam loves poker and the take it or leave it approach to negotiation and fxcked up a RFA offer. Blaming Kal right now is dumb. Not making up for the mistake of rushing him and gaming on him over a late round 1st and 3rd would be even dumber.

I agree with this.  
This is 100% on Bergevin’s head…I could care less if he wants to use an offer sheet but if you want to play in the deep end then you better know how to swim.  Bergevin is, and has been, amongst the worst GM’s in the league going back to before we hired him.  He lucked into last seasons playoff run and it probably saved his job.

 

The offer sheet to Aho was too easy to match.  So they gained nothing but fostering the ire of Hurricanes ownership and GM.  Then Bergevin left himself open by not extending KK. 

 

They need to resign KK and figure out the cap…and sign the young guys to extensions to prevent this (if you were them, would you decide to wait for your own offer sheets now - particularly since they may be in this situation cap wise again).  
 

I fully expect Bergevin will do the opposite and let him walk and also try another offer sheet on the Hurricanes next year.  I doubt he even gets our young guys extended before doing it.  He’s that special kind of fool.

 

This after the Chicago news and his lack of owning those issues and then the cluelessness with this years draft.   And after the loads of evidence that he has no clue how to manage player assets.

 

He is not a GM or a leader.  He should be a scout…that’s his only skill and he’s no better then most.


Just get rid of Bergevin already.  

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5 minutes ago, Zowpeb said:

I agree with this.  
This is 100% on Bergevin’s head…I could care less if he wants to use an offer sheet but if you want to play in the deep end then you better know how to swim.  Bergevin is, and has been, amongst the worst GM’s in the league going back to before we hired him.  He lucked into last seasons playoff run and it probably saved his job.

 

The offer sheet to Aho was too easy to match.  So they gained nothing but fostering the ire of Hurricanes ownership and GM.  Then Bergevin left himself open by not extending KK. 

 

They need to resign KK and figure out the cap…and sign the young guys to extensions to prevent this (if you were them, would you decide to wait for your own offer sheets now - particularly since they may be in this situation cap wise again).  
 

I fully expect Bergevin will do the opposite and let him walk and also try another offer sheet on the Hurricanes next year.  I doubt he even gets our young guys extended before doing it.  He’s that special kind of fool.

 

This after the Chicago news and his lack of owning those issues and then the cluelessness with this years draft.   And after the loads of evidence that he has no clue how to manage player assets.

 

He is not a GM or a leader.  He should be a scout…that’s his only skill and he’s no better then most.


Just get rid of Bergevin already.  

LoL

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I see no reason at all to infer that KK “wanted out.” His agent was negotiating. Carolina offered him way more money than any team in the league would have done, including the Habs. Accepting the offer sheet was probably just a straightforward business decision.

 

It is too soon to say definitively that we messed up KK’s development. But that said, there was absolutely no reason to bring him up at that young age. He merely played himself out of the lineup for two seasons running - showing that we could easily have left him marinading properly in the minors, where he might have learned to dominate and to be consistent. The main thing that bringing him up early accomplished, apart from a quick PR sugar high, was to burn years off his entry-level contract and make him vulnerable to this kind of predatory move to boot. It may also have instilled an attitude of entitlement in him: “hey, I’ve made it, I’m a big deal.” If so, Carolina’s offer sheet is only going to reinforce that message.

 

Of course, KK did have a couple of nice playoff series. So there is that to consider - it wasn’t a total wash. But on balance, there was no compelling hockey reason to bring the kid up at that age. Indeed, I would argue that Galchenyuk was more obviously “ready” when they pulled the same trick with him. 

 

I respect Habs29’s argument, but I just have too many doubts that KK will ever be worth $6 mil. So my call is, let him go. 

 

It will be very interesting to see which view ends up being correct…

 

EDIT: as for Bergevin, when he had a great offseason last year, I praised his work to the hilt. Now he has had a disastrous offseason. He deserves to be called out for that just as vigorously.

 

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

The negativity is crazy against MB... how quickly the knives come out for the GM of the year nominee...

 

Who in there right mind would turn down an offer 3 times what they are worth? Nobody! Especially a Finn who has no ties to Montreal... but for being drafted ...  KK has done nothing wrong and will gladly ay in MTL next season at 6.1 as well as next year ...

Pro sports, by its nature, means that fans judge current actions over past accomplishments ... the negative comments do not impact what MB did last summer/season ... but reflect the state of the team in the moment.

 

And nobody would turn down the money ... but to proclaim that "KK ... will gladly ay in montreal nest season" is an assumption, not a fact ... only KK and those close to him know ... and if the offer is matched KK will say all the right things regardless of whether he is or is not happy.

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4 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I see no reason at all to infer that KK “wanted out.” His agent was negotiating. ... 

EDIT: as for Bergevin, when he had a great offseason last year, I praised his work to the hilt. Now he has had a disastrous offseason. He deserves to be called out for that just as vigorously.

Agree, there is no proof whether he wanted out ... but there is also no proof he didn't ... we can't know.

 

I also agree that when props are due they should be given, and when slams are due they should be delivered as well.

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

Or ... MB's hardball negotiations with KK prevented a bridge deal that would have avoided the 'Canes having the opportunity to make the offer.

 

Yes that's a part of the debacle.  KK has been brutally mismanaged from day 1, when we drafted for position over talent at #3.

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10 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

Agree, there is no proof whether he wanted out ... but there is also no proof he didn't ... we can't know.

 

I also agree that when props are due they should be given, and when slams are due they should be delivered as well.

 

On the first point: if someone offers me $6 mil instead of a $2 million bridge deal, I take it. 

 

This is the GM who said “if you want loyalty, get a dog.”

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As an entertainment industry, the Canes have made this an interesting few days. I can't say I agree with their online trolling, but the fanbase seems to love it, so it was a good marketing business decision for them, too.

 

I certainly hope that if the OS is not matched, that the Habs don't try Drouin at center again.

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

Or ... MB's hardball negotiations with KK prevented a bridge deal that would have avoided the 'Canes having the opportunity to make the offer.

Or ... Kotkaniemi's agent's hardball negotiations with Bergevin prevented a bridge deal that would have avoided the 'Canes having the opportunity to make the offer.

 

We really don't know, do we?

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2 hours ago, GHT120 said:

Didn't say he wasn't ... but I do not believe every offer sheet submitted to a player is signed ... but he had to be willing to change teams to sign it ... 

 

The majority of tendered offer sheets aren't signed which is why it's such a big deal when one actually is.  I think the Habs have had at least two declined by the player over the last few years (or their interest was rebuffed before it actually got that far) and there have been others around the league turned down as well.

 

As fans, we can sit there and say so and so is an obvious offer sheet candidate.  GM's know that too and look into it more regularly than I think most realize.  But whether the player doesn't want to leave or the money isn't good enough, they're declined.  In this case, it's hard to criticize Kotkaniemi for taking a deal close to 3x his market value; that's an extreme premium even for an offer sheet.

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13 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

That’s a brilliant move, let’s sit him in the press box so that he doesn’t produce. Than have to either let him become a UFA, ir qualify him at $6m, ir $5.8m, or whatever the amount is. Than we wait when we are allowed to trade him on Aug 27 or 28, and naturally his value should be real high.  Yep, that’s definitely the right move to make 🙄🤭

 

Just a tongue in cheek FU to KK. Is all 😆

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2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:
2 hours ago, GHT120 said:

Agree, there is no proof whether he wanted out ... but there is also no proof he didn't ... we can't know ...

 

On the first point: if someone offers me $6 mil instead of a $2 million bridge deal, I take it. 

This is the GM who said “if you want loyalty, get a dog.”

 

Don't think I ever said I objected to KK signing the offer sheet, or that it meant he desperately wanted out ... it would be crazy not to sign when it was that ridiculous an amount.

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2 hours ago, tomh009 said:

Or ... Kotkaniemi's agent's hardball negotiations with Bergevin prevented a bridge deal that would have avoided the 'Canes having the opportunity to make the offer.

 

We really don't know, do we?

Well ... if this agent was holding out for a ridiculous number than MB can't be blamed ... but I'd bet it was the other way around ... my guess is that 2yrs @$3M per season would have gotten a deal done ... a slight overpayment in my mind, but once Carolina called about a trade I would hope that MB would have made an offer to get the deal done.

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4 hours ago, GHT120 said:

Didn't say he wasn't ... but I do not believe every offer sheet submitted to a player is signed ... but he had to be willing to change teams to sign it ... the point of my post was that none of us can know whether KK would even want to returns or would be brilliantly happy to do so ... but his mindset could play a role in what Habs decide as they have a "behind to curtain" perspective.

Weber wasn’t happy when Nashville matched, but played really well for them once the season started back than. So I don’t see that as an issue.

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1 hour ago, dlbalr said:

 

The majority of tendered offer sheets aren't signed which is why it's such a big deal when one actually is.  I think the Habs have had at least two declined by the player over the last few years (or their interest was rebuffed before it actually got that far) and there have been others around the league turned down as well.

 

As fans, we can sit there and say so and so is an obvious offer sheet candidate.  GM's know that too and look into it more regularly than I think most realize.  But whether the player doesn't want to leave or the money isn't good enough, they're declined.  In this case, it's hard to criticize Kotkaniemi for taking a deal close to 3x his market value; that's an extreme premium even for an offer sheet.

Sure players can reject an offer sheet. One that turned down the habs was Point. With the tax difference, he could make less in Tampa. Tampa is a perennial contender, while the Habs - last years playoffs not-withstanding - have been a perennial bubble team. It’s warmer in Tampa. 
why would Point have accepted an offer sheet. Given what was offered to Aho, I doubt he would have made substantially more, and he won two cups and for paid in the end.

 

there is a big difference accepting an offer sheet from a team that is marginally better, or worse than your team, than, an offer sheet from a team that is no where near as good. Tampa has lower taxes and probably has the handshake deal to pay later.

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6 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Sure players can reject an offer sheet. One that turned down the habs was Point. With the tax difference, he could make less in Tampa. Tamp is a perennial contender, while the Habs - last years playoffs not-withstanding - have been a perennial bubble team. It’s warmer in Tampa. 
why would Point have accepted an offer sheet. Given what was offered to Aho, I doubt he would have made substantially more, and he won two cups and for paid in the end.

 

There really is no point in tendering an offer sheet unless you have compelling reason to think the other team won’t match. MB seems to extend offers which represent no-brainer market value for the player…hard to see what that accomplishes, except to piss off opposing GMs, or create the media impression that he is “being bold.”

 

Pettersson is intriguing, because Van’s cap situation is so f**d up they might not be able to match a higher-end offer.

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Just now, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

There really is no point in tendering an offer sheet unless you have compelling reason to think the other team won’t match. MB seems to extend offers which represent no-brainer market value for the player…hard to see what that accomplishes, except to piss off opposing GMs, or create the media impression that he is “being bold.”

 

Pettersson is intriguing, because Van’s cap situation is so f**d up they might not be able to match a higher-end offer.

 

MB has only made one (1) offer sheet, or are there others you know about?

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29 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

MB has only made one (1) offer sheet, or are there others you know about?


I was building off Habs29’s point about Point…but either way, what I said is certainly true of the Aho debacle.

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6 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:


I was building off Habs29’s point about Point…but either way, what I said is certainly true of the Aho debacle.

takes two points to see if there is a tendency, three to guess a trend

 

Let's see what MB decides

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15 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Vancouver would thank us for Patterson at $6m. you have to overpay to get an RFA, at $6m, MB is not only doing Bennington job for him, Benning would probably buy MB a Ferrari for getting him out of cap hell with a sweetheart deal.  Now, the chances of Patterson accepting that offer are probably less than zero.
 

 

I call bullshit on the notion of a GM thankful after matching an offer sheet.

 

If the deal is so great that the player signs it  and so great that the GM thanks us, then why this deal hasn't been already signed between the two parties ?

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Is is true that KK can't be extended before Jan?  That would ruin my idea.

 

If kk could be extended before Jan, and I was the owner I'd have the GM match and then immediately extend KK to a long term 8-10 yr contract worth 5-6 mil/yr.  Then, right before the season starts and he'd have to pass waivers, I'd send kk to Laval with intent and purpose of leaving him there for the entirety of the contract.  i.e. kk wants to be spoiled lil baby being benched for 1 game in the Cup Final, see how he likes being benched for his career.  If that scenario was possible that's exactly what I do if I was worth Mr Burns type money.  You know, "kk, cut your side burns" 

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4 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

Is is true that KK can't be extended before Jan?  That would ruin my idea.

 

If kk could be extended before Jan, and I was the owner I'd have the GM match and then immediately extend KK to a long term 8-10 yr contract worth 5-6 mil/yr.  Then, right before the season starts and he'd have to pass waivers, I'd send kk to Laval with intent and purpose of leaving him there for the entirety of the contract.  i.e. kk wants to be spoiled lil baby being benched for 1 game in the Cup Final, see how he likes being benched for his career.  If that scenario was possible that's exactly what I do if I was worth Mr Burns type money.  You know, "kk, cut your side burns" 

 

Have fun owning a team the players would boycott! :lol:

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9 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

 

Have fun owning a team the players would boycott! :lol:

 

Whatever do you mean by that?

 

Do the Flyers have an issue acquiring players and everyone boycots them?  That's exactly what the Flyers and Bobby Clarke were doing to Lindros.  Guess what, kk ain't no Lindros.  😉

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