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Habs acquire Christian Dvorak


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59 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Is there anyone here that would have been happy with Bergevin signing Kotkaniemi to a $6M one-year contract in July?

Well I wasn’t happy with his either signing in July, and like I said, I’d rather thank paid KK $4m on a long term deal, than have signed Hoffman or Savard. I’d also rather be paying KK $5m on a long term deal than the Drouin contract. I think KK will probably be out producing Anderson in two years. 
 

For a GM that is committed to building through the draft we now have one of our 1st round picks from 2009-2018 (Poehling), and we don’t know if he is a keeper  With MB making the picks from 2012-onwards). Caufield is so far the only sure fire keeper. This year’s pick looks to be another disaster. Drafting and development is still an issue. 
 

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20 minutes ago, Meller93 said:

I see the centers as:

suzuki

dvorak

evans 

paquette to start the year. Unless Poehling entirely forces his way there.

 

I think more high level AHL play will be good for his developmental into more of a middle 6 C than bottom 6

Agree. Though Pacquette may end up being higher than Evans. I am very high on Evans, but there is also a chance for regression, and a bit of risk with his concussion history.

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27 minutes ago, Meller93 said:

I see the centers as:

suzuki

dvorak

evans 

paquette to start the year. Unless Poehling entirely forces his way there.

 

I think more high level AHL play will be good for his developmental into more of a middle 6 C than bottom 6

 

I really think Poehling forces his way in here (I likely sound like a broken record on Poehling). I think his ceiling is higher than Evans and Paquette and he has paid his dues in the AHL realizing that an NHL job was not going to be just handed to him nor should it.  I really like Evans but his concussion also worries me, 4 concussions already does not bode well for a long NHL career.  I really hope I am wrong on that as he is a great kid. 

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14 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

He needed to match, he didn’t. Than he overpaid for Dvorak, when everyone knows that next year’s draft is supposed to be hood and deep, and the following year is also very good. So now we get to ensure we are a bubble team, but one that probably doesn’t make the playoffs.

I can see KK breaking out and us again moving a young player and overpaying for am average player who has probably reached his peak, or is pretty close to it.

He didn’t need to match. He should not have matched. He did not match. Paying  over 6 million/ year for KK is madness. 

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12 minutes ago, PMAC said:

He didn’t need to match. He should not have matched. He did not match. Paying  over 6 million/ year for KK is madness. 

And paying $5.5m for Drouin was better??? I’d rather take a chance for 1 more year, than be locked up with a guy like Drouin who actually did have attitude and entitlement issues.

id rather pay him than old guys. The Alzner contract is certifiable insanity. The Sava f deal is better, but it’s for a mediocre player.  I would have like to see what KK does at the same age as Suzuki. I’d gladly have not signed Hoffman - who shouldn’t have been signed until KK was - and paid Kk more.

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Just now, Dalhabs said:

June next year, thats when we will know what was the right move.

 

I’d say within the next two years for sure. Well have a better idea next June.

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3 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

 

Last year he was on pace for approx. 25 goals and 45 points. If he can do that in Montreal, play both ends of the ice, good on faceoffs, be a good team guy then his cap hit is certainly decent value. He will have good line mates in Montreal so perhaps the numbers will get better. My only regret here is we lost KK without knowing what his ceiling was. The Habs messed that up but it might turn out ok.

 

I fully agree, and I believe that Dvoraks #'s with the Habs can only improve.  Apparently, he is a decent PK - so he should help improve that too.

 

No matter what happens, if kk does become a 50-60 pts guy, on the Habs Dvorak could become a 50-60 pts guy too.  However, if both of them do become 50-60 pts guys, kk will probably want 7-8mil/yr; whereas Dvorak would probably ask for 5-5.5 mil.  i.e. if kk gets close to 50 pts with the Canes next year, do you think he will sign for $4 mil/yr?  I bet he'd want a raise on his 6.1 mil. 

 

Plus, I disagree with people that are saying Dvorak is a short term plan.  He's signed for 4 years, and I get the impression that a) he will work out great for those 4 years, and b) I imagine that he'll probably be resigned and for a reasonable amount. 

 

While it sucked losing Danault and kk, the interesting thing is that both of them were negative value players.  i.e. they both wanted more $ than what they are really worth.  Dvorak is likely an equal value to positive value player who should get a minimum of 45+ pts for his 4.5mil.  In a salary cap environment - having a collection of players with that mindset is a win. 

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6 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

I fully agree, and I believe that Dvoraks #'s with the Habs can only improve.  Apparently, he is a decent PK - so he should help improve that too.

Ability to play a PK role is important, especially given that we lost Danault. Kotkaniemi hasn't done that, so Dvorak will help mitigate that gap. Apart from the question of points scored, PK and FO% are two assets that he will almost certainly have over Kotkaniemi this year (oh yeah, and AAV too).

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Dvorak isn’t a Danault-lite either, sure he’s two-way but they have different assets. Danault is probably better defensively but I think Dvorak probably has more offensive upside. His hands are better for sure. I think he’ll probably surprise people with a bit of flash

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Bottom line is that it will take at least a couple years to see how this turns out.  It really sucked to be in this situation and having to make a decision not knowing what KK's ceiling is.  You don't get a top 3 pick often and the Habs messed up both times in picking Galchenyuk and not developing KK properly. I will give them a little more latitude on the Galchenyuk pick as that was a  bad draft year and none of the top 4 picks turned out well. 

 

I think most agree the Drouin trade was MB's biggest mistake. At least his contract expires in 2 years when I am guessing Caulfield will get a bit of a raise. 

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7 hours ago, Longstreet said:

They draft KK ahead of Hughes and Tkachuk in 2018. WTF. Many were scratching their heads when they did that. 

Our prospect pipeline was very thin on C prospects, so they made a decision to draft for need rather than BPA.

 

Now, Hughes has probably turned out to be the best player drafted in 2018. But six (six!) teams passed him up before Vancouver selected him, so your head-scratching is a bit of an exaggeration.

 

And arguably Romanov (38th overall) looks far better than most of the 2018 first-round picks, so the Habs' scouting staff certainly did their homework there.

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57 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

And paying $5.5m for Drouin was better??? I’d rather take a chance for 1 more year, than be locked up with a guy like Drouin who actually did have attitude and entitlement issues.

id rather pay him than old guys. The Alzner contract is certifiable insanity. The Sava f deal is better, but it’s for a mediocre player.  I would have like to see what KK does at the same age as Suzuki. I’d gladly have not signed Hoffman - who shouldn’t have been signed until KK was - and paid Kk more.

The Drouin trade was probably Bergevin’s biggest mistake as it’s impact will resonate through the organization far longer than the  unfortunate Alzner contract. I would have liked to see KK with the Habs for years but Kk not agreeing to a contract has nothing to do with the Hoffman signing. Since the cap system was established ufa’s get paid first and more and Rfa’s get less. The Hurricanes leveraged the CBA to get KK but had to wildly over pay to do it.  Good for them. May De Angelo wreck their room, may their goaltending be porous and may Kk be their leading scorer with 45 points. 

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56 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

I fully agree, and I believe that Dvoraks #'s with the Habs can only improve.  Apparently, he is a decent PK - so he should help improve that too.

 

No matter what happens, if kk does become a 50-60 pts guy, on the Habs Dvorak could become a 50-60 pts guy too.  However, if both of them do become 50-60 pts guys, kk will probably want 7-8mil/yr; whereas Dvorak would probably ask for 5-5.5 mil.  i.e. if kk gets close to 50 pts with the Canes next year, do you think he will sign for $4 mil/yr?  I bet he'd want a raise on his 6.1 mil. 

 

Plus, I disagree with people that are saying Dvorak is a short term plan.  He's signed for 4 years, and I get the impression that a) he will work out great for those 4 years, and b) I imagine that he'll probably be resigned and for a reasonable amount. 

 

While it sucked losing Danault and kk, the interesting thing is that both of them were negative value players.  i.e. they both wanted more $ than what they are really worth.  Dvorak is likely an equal value to positive value player who should get a minimum of 45+ pts for his 4.5mil.  In a salary cap environment - having a collection of players with that mindset is a win. 

What most analysts are reporting is that KK will probably sign a longer term deal after Jan 1 for around $4m-$$4.5m

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10 minutes ago, PMAC said:

The Drouin trade was probably Bergevin’s biggest mistake as it’s impact will resonate through the organization far longer than the  unfortunate Alzner contract. I would have liked to see KK with the Habs for years but Kk not agreeing to a contract has nothing to do with the Hoffman signing. Since the cap system was established ufa’s get paid first and more and Rfa’s get less. The Hurricanes leveraged the CBA to get KK but had to wildly over pay to do it.  Good for them. May De Angelo wreck their room, may their goaltending be porous and may Kk be their leading scorer with 45 points. 

Of course it did. The habs were maxed out and exposed capwise. The Canes times their offer sheet perfectly. MB had spent his money; and only had Weber’s LTIR and the allowable overage to spare.  We had plenty of wingers. Didn’t need another one. Centre and Offence from the D was where we had a need. Money should have been saved in case there was an opportunity in season to make an addition, even when you take KK out of the equation.

 

with the team of the deal we made with Arizona, we have to be careful what we wish for from the Canes this year. Mind boggling terms that MB conceded. Looked like a rookie GM through this hole mess and the draft.

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Just now, hab29RETIRED said:

What most analysts are reporting is that KK will probably sign a longer term deal after Jan 1 for around $4m-$$4.5m

 

Yes, that was likely discussed as reported.  However, that doesn't mean that kk has to honour what he discussed with Wadell.  Like I've said, kk will probably hold out until the off season just to see how many points he can get this year, and if kk gets close to 50 pts he will probably want a long term contract that starts with a 7.  If that happens, Wadell will completely regret giving the offer sheet and will let kk walk after 1 year.  I wont be surprised if that happens. 

 

Hypothetically, if you were a GM what would you think of kk singing with Canes?  i.e. Habs drafted him way above where he would have otherwise been drafted, Habs gave him special treatment and played him in NHL as an 18 y/o.  Then kk is purposely impossible in contract negotiations and stabs Habs in spine by signing a contract with Canes.  I doubt theres many GMs that believe kk is team player.  A lot of the GMs would be smart to want nothing to do with him. 

 

10 minutes ago, PMAC said:

Kk not agreeing to a contract has nothing to do with the Hoffman signing. Since the cap system was established ufa’s get paid first and more and Rfa’s get less.

 

I tend to agree that it likely wasnt Hoffman's signing but Armia's along with Byron's contract too.  @dlbalr wasnt wrong with saying kk should probably get 2-2.5mil for what he has accomplished so far.  However, another hypothetical scenarion where you are the #2 C on a team, how much money would you believe you are worth?  i.e. would you really sign for less than what 2 4th line wingers get paid?  In that sense it isnt entirely unrealistic if kk wanted over 3.25mil that those 2 4th line wingers get.  I think that was a huge part of the problem. 

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1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

Bottom line is that it will take at least a couple years to see how this turns out.  It really sucked to be in this situation and having to make a decision not knowing what KK's ceiling is.  You don't get a top 3 pick often and the Habs messed up both times in picking Galchenyuk and not developing KK properly. I will give them a little more latitude on the Galchenyuk pick as that was a  bad draft year and none of the top 4 picks turned out well. 

 

I think most agree the Drouin trade was MB's biggest mistake. At least his contract expires in 2 years when I am guessing Caulfield will get a bit of a raise. 

As for Galchenyuk, he has the second most points and third most goals of any player taken in his draft year!  Yet he can't crack a lineup anywhere.

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6 hours ago, Peter Puck said:

Let's compare a 21 year old Chrstian Dvorak (rookie) with a 21 year old KK (3rd year in the league).

 

Dvorak  in 2016-2017 had 15 goals, 18 assists for 33 points in 78 games.  Per game that's 0.19g, 0.23 a, 0.42 pts.

KK  in 2020-2021 (RS)  had 5 goals, 15 assists for 20 points in 56 games.  Per game that's 0.09g, 0.27 a, 0.36 pts.

KK  in 2020-2021 including playoffs had 10 goals, 18 assists for 28 points in 75 games.  Per game that's 0.13g, 0.24 a, 0.37 pts.

 

Dvokak has improved (slightly) since then.

 

These numbers don't make it seem like KK will end up better.  Plus its clear that C.D. is better defensively and better at faceoffs.

 

that comparison would have meaning if we had traded KK for Dvorak, but we did not

 

Danault at 21 (2014-2015) only played 2 games, 0 points FO 30%

 

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2 hours ago, Meller93 said:

I see the centers as:

suzuki

dvorak

evans 

paquette to start the year. Unless Poehling entirely forces his way there.

 

I think more high level AHL play will be good for his developmental into more of a middle 6 C than bottom 6

agreed, that would be great for Poehling; it also aligns with the contract he just signed

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58 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Of course it did. The habs were maxed out and exposed capwise. The Canes times their offer sheet perfectly. MB had spent his money; and only had Weber’s LTIR and the allowable overage to spare.  We had plenty of wingers. Didn’t need another one. Centre and Offence from the D was where we had a need. Money should have been saved in case there was an opportunity in season to make an addition, even when you take KK out of the equation.

 

with the team of the deal we made with Arizona, we have to be careful what we wish for from the Canes this year. Mind boggling terms that MB conceded. Looked like a rookie GM through this hole mess and the draft.

hogwash.

Habs were not anymore exposed than Vancouver, Buffalo, Ottawa and others with pending RFAs

 

With Tatar leaving, Hoffman is a sensible addition, specially since he performs better in the playoffs.

 

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

What most analysts are reporting is that KK will probably sign a longer term deal after Jan 1 for around $4m-$$4.5m

Everybody is guessing and speculating. I could guess that he'll get an eight year extension at $80M but that doesn't make it true.

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1 hour ago, PMAC said:

The Hurricanes leveraged the CBA to get KK but had to wildly over pay to do it.  Good for them. May De Angelo wreck their room, may their goaltending be porous and may Kk be their leading scorer with 45 points. 

Not only goaltending but also D ... with Hamilton gone and Gardiner on LTIR, they are not exactly stacked there.

 

One interesting note is the length of non-ULC contracts they have signed this off-season:

  • Svechnikov 8y
  • Martinook 3y
  • Raanta and Andersen 2y
  • 17 (!) players 1y

A huge nunber of one-year contracts, almost nothing long term.

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1 hour ago, titanfan said:

As for Galchenyuk, he has the second most points and third most goals of any player taken in his draft year!  Yet he can't crack a lineup anywhere.

True ... but Habs could have had Morgan RiellyHampus LindholmMatt Dumba or Jacob Trouba instead of drafting for need and assuming Galchenyuk would/could be a NHL centre.

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13 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

True ... but Habs could have had Morgan RiellyHampus LindholmMatt Dumba or Jacob Trouba instead of drafting for need and assuming Galchenyuk would/could be a NHL centre.

couldhav', wouldhav', shouldhav'

 

https://theathletic.com/1581819/2020/02/05/analyzing-the-many-mistakes-made-in-the-2012-nhl-draft-including-the-role-conventional-wisdom-played/

 

 

image.png

 

Since the article was written:

Ryan Murray was traded to NJY and then signed as an UFA with COL

 

three remain with their teams

Edited by alfredoh2009
added Murray's trade/UFA
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