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What needs to change our development of players or our scouting of players especially 1st round picks??


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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

MB has had 3 top 10 picks. He’a had what 9 drafts. That’s not a bad percentage. None of those picks are with the team. That’s unacceptable. None of the trades yielded a top line forward or top pairing dman. Also unacceptable. 
 

the Avs don’t have a high percentage of picks in their roster. However there core are draft picks:

1) McKinnon - 1st overall 

2) Landeskogg - 2nd overall

3) Makar - 4th overall

4) Rantanan- 10th overall 

up and coming 

5) Bryan - 4th overall

6) Newhook  - 16th pick.

 

admittedly, they’ve had more high number picks, but even with their later picks, there is much more elite drafted taken in their lineup.  After the lousy Ryan O’Reilly that saw: Sakic has learned and did much better with Duschane. On the other hand. We have squandered the high picks we have, and gotten a lousy return.

 

we have:

1. Price 
2. Gallagher 

up and coming 

3. Caufield 

4. Romanov 

 

the rest are lower level end players  only two of the these players are under MB’s watch.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure how helpful it is to compare us to one of the teams with the best collection of high end players but okay, 

let's compare the Habs to the Avs in first round draft picks for say, 2009-2019:

Pick #    Avs   Habs

 1          1          0

 2          1          0

 3          1          2

4           2          0

5--8     0          0

9           0         1

10         2         0

11-14    0         0

15-20    2        3

20-24    0       1

25-31    1        4

 

This makes it pretty clear why the Avs have drafted more top quality players then the Habs.

 

 

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

MB has had 3 top 10 picks. He’a had what 9 drafts. That’s not a bad percentage.

 

That's basically what you get as a playoff/bubble team: you only occasionally get into lottery range.

 

 

1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

None of those picks are with the team. That’s unacceptable.

Why is it unacceptable? You may or may not be happy with the trades, but what's inherently better about keeping the drafted players?

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2 hours ago, Peter Puck said:

I'm not sure how helpful it is to compare us to one of the teams with the best collection of high end players but okay, 

let's compare the Habs to the Avs in first round draft picks for say, 2009-2019:

Pick #    Avs   Habs

 1          1          0

 2          1          0

 3          1          2

4           2          0

5--8     0          0

9           0         1

10         2         0

11-14    0         0

15-20    2        3

20-24    0       1

25-31    1        4

 

This makes it pretty clear why the Avs have drafted more top quality players then the Habs.

 

 

They had more quality picks, becuase they made a conscious decision to rebuild - both before and after the Roy fiasco. We stumbled into our high picks and wasted the ones we had. Having said that I think Sakic wasted a pick with  his goaltending decision this summer.

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1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

 

That's basically what you get as a playoff/bubble team: you only occasionally get into lottery range.

 

 

Why is it unacceptable? You may or may not be happy with the trades, but what's inherently better about keeping the drafted players?

You think the Sergechev for Drouin return was satisfactory?? It was a dumb move the day it was made. Netting Anderson and Less than Dvorak (had to add a 2nd , when we got a 3rd), are both lousy returns for a 3rd overall pick. 

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18 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Not every third overall pick can have the impact of Eric Gudbranson, Zach Bogosian, Jack Johnson, Cam Barker, Dylan Strome and Alexandr Svitov.

 

As for Galchenyuk, still a good pick when you look at that draft which is hot garbage.

Any list with the words, “Jack Johnson and impact” can’t be good 😊 Glad to see that you are back.

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9 hours ago, Commandant said:

Not every third overall pick can have the impact of Eric Gudbranson, Zach Bogosian, Jack Johnson, Cam Barker, Dylan Strome and Alexandr Svitov.

 

As for Galchenyuk, still a good pick when you look at that draft which is hot garbage.

 

That was a bad draft year, has to be one of the worst in history. A lot of sites were saying that Galchenyuk might have been number one if it wasn't for his knee injury and he did have a 30 goal season. 

 

Good to see you back!

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1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

 

Good to see you back!

 

🤘Is it ever!! WOOT!!! The board’s MVP is back :) :) 

 

On the issue at hand, we turned Galy into Anderson (major win), Sergachev into Drouin (catastrophic disaster), and KK into Dvorak (result TBD). 

 

While MB has done a good job of stocking the team with quality FWs in particular, I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that trading away our prospects is some sort of team-building “strategy.” The Galy and KK moves were forced upon him by circumstances: the fact that Galy sucked, and the KK imbroglio. Those were improvisational salvage operations, not strategy. (When he did trade a top prospect as a deliberate strategy, it was a catastrophe, i.e., Sergachev).

 

It would be nice if we could point to our top-6 and our D and identity some home-grown talent. The situation on D in particular is bizarre. It is at least reasonable to ask why we’re not able to generate quality, internally-developed impact players who stay with the organization.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Commandant said:

Not every third overall pick can have the impact of Eric Gudbranson, Zach Bogosian, Jack Johnson, Cam Barker, Dylan Strome and Alexandr Svitov.

 

As for Galchenyuk, still a good pick when you look at that draft which is hot garbage.

 

1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

That was a bad draft year, has to be one of the worst in history. A lot of sites were saying that Galchenyuk might have been number one if it wasn't for his knee injury and he did have a 30 goal season. 

 

Good to see you back!  👍

 

Love (seriously) the use of marginally successful 3rd overalls as a counterpoint ... creates valid counterpoint context.

 

The 2012 draft was hot garbage for forward in the top 10 (Filip Forsberg - pre-draft reportedly Timmins' favourite if I recall - was #11)  ... but the other 7 top 10 picks were defenceman and four of those (5,6,7,9) would have proved to be good selections ... obviously all that in retrospect ... not really debating the Galchenyuk selection, just saying that there were options that were not "hot garbage" and could have contributed more than Galchenyuk ... although I have to say that in purely current terms I can't complain about having Anderson as the end result.

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21 hours ago, tomh009 said:

But why is it "poor"? Why do we need to have more players whom we have drafted?

 

Bergevin has built an organization that is strong in pro scouting, and he has been leveraging that to make (mostly) strong trades. If trading a drafted player makes the team stronger, should we really turn down that opportunity?

As i noted before Tampa has 11, Habs 6 and which team has been doing better lately?

 

Could be meaning less and of course every pick is simply an 'asset', but still seems to reflect on poor drafting record and/or development.

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6 hours ago, DON said:

As i noted before Tampa has 11, Habs 6 and which team has been doing better lately?

 

Could be meaning less and of course every pick is simply an 'asset', but still seems to reflect on poor drafting record and/or development.

That is the question, is it correlation or causation? :)

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Montreal player development, or lack thereof, is very evident by their draft success which has been very minimal and their AHL affiliate team success which has been abysmal since they've only made the playoffs once in the last ten years! Think about. The draft prospects eventually make their way to the minor league team along with career minor leaguers but their record has been terrible in Hamilton, St. Johns, and Laval since the 2011 season when they finished first in their division. All this talk by Bergy to develop through the draft has been empty. Timmins and his whole crew of scouts should be let go.... 

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46 minutes ago, Longstreet said:

Montreal player development, or lack thereof, is very evident by their draft success which has been very minimal and their AHL affiliate team success which has been abysmal since they've only made the playoffs once in the last ten years!

Well ... that's not entirely fair to Laval. Let's look at their record in the four years since they relocated:

  • 2017-2018: Last season with Lefebvre. Finished 24-42-10 and last in the division.
  • 2018-2019: Bouchard took over, and the team finished 30-34-12 and second last in the division
  • 2019-2020: The team improved to 30-24-8 and only four points out of a playoff spot
  • 2020-2021: In a shortened season, they finished 23-9-4 and dominated the Canadian division

The change from Lefebvre to Bouchard made a huge difference in Laval. It didn't change drafting at all, but Bouchard's approach worked far better for development and AHL performance than that of Lefebvre.

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1 hour ago, Longstreet said:

Montreal player development, or lack thereof, is very evident by their draft success which has been very minimal and their AHL affiliate team success which has been abysmal since they've only made the playoffs once in the last ten years! Think about. The draft prospects eventually make their way to the minor league team along with career minor leaguers but their record has been terrible in Hamilton, St. Johns, and Laval since the 2011 season when they finished first in their division. All this talk by Bergy to develop through the draft has been empty. Timmins and his whole crew of scouts should be let go.... 

 

Winning at AHL level and developing talent do not necessarily go together.  That is not a fair comparison to make and shows a lack of understanding of the role of the AHL compared to the NHL.


Timmins is extremely respected around the league, is praised by many smart hockey minds who are in the industry, so I don’t think any posters on an Internet forum have any cause to call for the termination of someone in a role that really is not a decision-making role. 

 

There has been numerous statistics shared in the forum about just how long shot it is to have decent NHL careers come from late drafting positions, it is a crap shoot and the team has rarely had the chance to draft at an impactful position.


 


 

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 IMHO:  The Habs fan/media environment most likely places too much pressure, expectation on draft picks. Very likely this part of the reason for lack of success. Young players getting distracted by immense scrutiny.

 

since the lightning are the popular comparison, there is not “prospect rankings” or in depth features of their prospects, no arm chair analyzing of their potential versus production.   Same goes for mostly every other NHL team, Leafs are good comparable as far as level of media/fan attention. How’s their talent development going? 
I’ve  got family in/from Boston so obv huge Bruins fans (season tickets in family for over 40 years, multiple generations) and even they know nothing about their developing players, not even their names unless they play for local college. They could care less about the draft, players aren’t really important until they crack NHL or are impactful at AHL and expected to step up.  But they know PP/PK success rates, years left on contracts, player stats so it is not like they are ill informed.  


Off the cuff theory:
Perhaps we the fans are part of the problem.  We drive the relative amount of money allocated to media focus on prospects, maybe this is actually creating a negative environment for them to mature, possibly reach their projections. Maybe we are the problem?   Literally, no other team has constant media updates of their prospects playing in low level Europe leagues, USNDT, college, etc.  

Just speculation but the more I think on it, the more I can see how this messes with a kid’s head, these are kids.  Google alerts, media, fans, agents, friends, family all pointing out and magnifying everything.  
 

Crazy times we live in.  


I personally love following prospects and rooting for them as they step into the bigs, makes for great branding/marketing but is it best for the young players?  

Curious what player development trends have looked like when overlaid against the boom of internet, instant access to info, attention related to that. We’re the Habs more successful  at player development in the 60’s,70’s,80’s?  
just spewing off ideas, so please don’t take this for an informed opinion haha.

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  • 2 weeks later...

First post here. 

 

I feel like it started when Sylvain Lefebvre was fired to be replaced by Joel Bouchard. It was a step in the right direction. You need a communicator to develop young players and Lefebvre was as far as it gets from there (I spoke to a couple of players who played for him). Guys were sat and didn't know why, rarely given "things to work on" to improve.

 

It goes much deeper than this but the one thing that I would suggest doing is to be more patient with players' development. Rare are the players who can have an impact in the NHL at 18-19 years old and in Montreal, it's even worse. If a rookie has a good camp, don't keep him unless you have a plan to play him regularly and not sit him every time he makes a mistake. And if he's 18-19, unless he's an exceptional like McDavid, send him down for a year of maturing, like they did with Suzuki. Give them a list of things to work on and follow up with them. 

 

I like the way the Habs handled Suzuki and Poehling. More of that and less of Latendresse, Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi type of rushing. 

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2 hours ago, JDLagrange said:

First post here. 

 

I feel like it started when Sylvain Lefebvre was fired to be replaced by Joel Bouchard. It was a step in the right direction. You need a communicator to develop young players and Lefebvre was as far as it gets from there (I spoke to a couple of players who played for him). Guys were sat and didn't know why, rarely given "things to work on" to improve.

 

It goes much deeper than this but the one thing that I would suggest doing is to be more patient with players' development. Rare are the players who can have an impact in the NHL at 18-19 years old and in Montreal, it's even worse. If a rookie has a good camp, don't keep him unless you have a plan to play him regularly and not sit him every time he makes a mistake. And if he's 18-19, unless he's an exceptional like McDavid, send him down for a year of maturing, like they did with Suzuki. Give them a list of things to work on and follow up with them. 

 

I like the way the Habs handled Suzuki and Poehling. More of that and less of Latendresse, Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi type of rushing. 

 

Agreed ... the "its up to the player to show us" approach has to be tempered by what is best to ensure that the player optimizes his potential ... so that ... the team gets the greatest benefit from that player ... both on-ice and under the cap (i.e., don't waste ELC years).

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7 hours ago, JDLagrange said:

First post here. 

 

I feel like it started when Sylvain Lefebvre was fired to be replaced by Joel Bouchard. It was a step in the right direction. You need a communicator to develop young players and Lefebvre was as far as it gets from there (I spoke to a couple of players who played for him). Guys were sat and didn't know why, rarely given "things to work on" to improve.

 

It goes much deeper than this but the one thing that I would suggest doing is to be more patient with players' development. Rare are the players who can have an impact in the NHL at 18-19 years old and in Montreal, it's even worse. If a rookie has a good camp, don't keep him unless you have a plan to play him regularly and not sit him every time he makes a mistake. And if he's 18-19, unless he's an exceptional like McDavid, send him down for a year of maturing, like they did with Suzuki. Give them a list of things to work on and follow up with them. 

 

I like the way the Habs handled Suzuki and Poehling. More of that and less of Latendresse, Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi type of rushing. 

Welcome to the board.

 

  I agree with what you said but I'm not sure Suziki is the best example.  He played 4 years in the OHL and 1 (playoff) game in the AHL before joinging the Habs as a regular at age 20.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Peter Puck said:

Welcome to the board.

 

  I agree with what you said but I'm not sure Suziki is the best example.  He played 4 years in the OHL and 1 (playoff) game in the AHL before joinging the Habs as a regular at age 20.

 

 

That's exactly why I used Suzuki. He had a good camp at 19 and they could have kept him. Instead, they returned him to junior and gave him a list of things to work on. One of the things, according to Suzuki himself, was to "play faster", meaning making quicker decisions and at a higher tempo, which he did. When he came to camp the following season, he was a better player because he was sent back. 

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The Habs 1st round picks for past 10+yrs, pretty empty results, for sure.

09 Leblanc 5g (total NHL to date)

10 Tinordi 1g

11 Beaulieu 12g

13 McCarron 2g

14 Scherbak 6g

15 Juulsen 2g

 

fingers crossed the last few pan out.:pray:

 

Has a team trading up in the draft, ever hit a home run by doing so?

(aside from the Sedin twins i suppose)

 

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2 hours ago, DON said:

The Habs 1st round picks for past 10+yrs, pretty empty results, for sure.

09 Leblanc 5g (total NHL to date)

10 Tinordi 1g

11 Beaulieu 12g

13 McCarron 2g

14 Scherbak 6g

15 Juulsen 2g

 

fingers crossed the last few pan out.:pray:

 

Has a team trading up in the draft, ever hit a home run by doing so?

(aside from the Sedin twins i suppose)

 

If you are going to assess drafting, why are you skipping Galchenyuk (140g), Sergachev (29g) and Kotkaniemi (22g)?

 

The ones you cherry-picked were picked 18th, 22nd, 17yh, 25th, 26th and 26th overall, not exactly the place to pick high-probability prospects. And I will further argue that Juulsen was an excellent pick at 26th, and the 2g reflects his unfortunate injuries, not his skill level.

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14 hours ago, DON said:

The Habs 1st round picks for past 10+yrs, pretty empty results, for sure.

09 Leblanc 5g (total NHL to date)

10 Tinordi 1g

11 Beaulieu 12g

13 McCarron 2g

14 Scherbak 6g

15 Juulsen 2g

 

fingers crossed the last few pan out.:pray:

 

Has a team trading up in the draft, ever hit a home run by doing so?

(aside from the Sedin twins i suppose)

 

 

That's interesting. Looking at your list, I can't help but notice a common denominator with three of them: Tinordi, McCarron and Scherbak were all kept in Montreal with no ice time for long periods of time because the Habs were afraid of losing them to waivers. I remember at the time writing how detrimental it was for their development for young players to sit for so long without playing. They did the same, although not quite as bad, with Victor Mete. 

 

Don't get me wrong, the players must take the steps to stay in the line-up and have their fault, but as an organisation, having them eat hot dogs in the press box game in, game out, is shooting yourself in the foot for the development of your young prospects. 

 

We in BC are you Don? I'm in Nakusp. Moved here from Penticton a couple of years ago.

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They did not do that with any of the 3 mentioned that I recall but for giving them an opportunity to play and then sending them back down when they did not cease that opportunity. The common denominator I see is that we drafted by need and not talent...

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1 hour ago, JDLagrange said:

 

That's interesting. Looking at your list, I can't help but notice a common denominator with three of them: Tinordi, McCarron and Scherbak were all kept in Montreal with no ice time for long periods of time because the Habs were afraid of losing them to waivers. I remember at the time writing how detrimental it was for their development for young players to sit for so long without playing. They did the same, although not quite as bad, with Victor Mete. 

 

Don't get me wrong, the players must take the steps to stay in the line-up and have their fault, but as an organisation, having them eat hot dogs in the press box game in, game out, is shooting yourself in the foot for the development of your young prospects. 

 

We in BC are you Don? I'm in Nakusp. Moved here from Penticton a couple of years ago.

Tonordi, yes

Scherbak, no

Big Mac, I do not think that was the issue. He just wasn't working hard enough to improve his skating and seemed to be out of shape most of the time

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13 hours ago, tomh009 said:

If you are going to assess drafting, why are you skipping Galchenyuk (140g), Sergachev (29g) and Kotkaniemi (22g)?

 

Are you arguing; that you are happy with how Galchenyuk, Sergachev, KK turned out for the Habs as top 10 picks?

And simply saying or agreeing that 1st round results in general, not looking too good for quite awhile, thats all.

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