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Bergevin's contract will only be dealt with after the season


GHT120

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5 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

I think he has made it a better team 

Anderson 

Caufield 

Toffoli 

Hoffman 

Dvorak 

Suzuki 

 

Much better talent then just 

Pacioretty 

Gallagher 

Subban 

That he got when taking over.

 

The problem is they never look to add more depth and look at older vets replacements. 

 

When they let Markov go, we have yet to find his replacement.

 

Now with Weber most likely gone and Price in a few years we haven't look to draft their replacements. 

 

This is what the team will be like once Price retire's, so get use to it. 

 

Their is too much two way players and not enough Playmakers especially on the D side of things. 

 

That team also had Markov and Plekanec, who was still in his prime.

 

The arc of MB's GMing career seems to be:

 

The "inherits a strong hand" years: 2012-2015

-inherited a strong core, added a couple of good pieces, had strong results in 2013-15

-terrible drafts

 

The "bottom feeder" years: 2016-2019

-the core collapsed/blew up/aged out in 2016-17

-extended run of suckage

-builds a respectable talent pool, but one markedly lacking in any franchise-level talent as replacements for aging Weber/Price 

 

The "spectacular patch-up job" year: 2020

-a bit like Gainey in 2010, he restructured the core aggressively in one offseason; and in this case, he managed to super-charge a run to the Finals within Weber/Price's windows

 

The "bottom feeder years" continued

-core collapses/blows/up/ages out in 2021-22

 

On balance, I think Gainey/Goat did better jobs of building the organization (even if Goat's terrible people-skills caused a meltdown in 2012). But they never did get the team to the Finals, so at least MB has that.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

That team also had Markov and Plekanec, who was still in his prime.

 

The arc of MB's GMing career seems to be:

 

The "inherits a strong hand" years: 2012-2015

-inherited a strong core, added a couple of good pieces, had strong results in 2013-15

-terrible drafts

 

The "bottom feeder" years: 2016-2019

-the core collapsed/blew up/aged out in 2016-17

-extended run of suckage

-builds a respectable talent pool, but one markedly lacking in any franchise-level talent as replacements for aging Weber/Price 

 

The "spectacular patch-up job" year: 2020

-a bit like Gainey in 2010, he restructured the core aggressively in one offseason; and in this case, he managed to super-charge a run to the Finals within Weber/Price's windows

 

The "bottom feeder years" continued

-core collapses/blows/up/ages out in 2021-22

 

On balance, I think Gainey/Goat did better jobs of building the organization (even if Goat's terrible people-skills caused a meltdown in 2012). But they never did get the team to the Finals, so at least MB has that.

 

 

I agree but Gainey did a full 5 year rebuild which in that time frame drafting 

Price 

Pacioretty 

Gallagher 

Subban 

Which was the core group Bergevin was given.  Bergevin turned that into 

Anderson 

Suzuki 

Dvorak 

Toffoli 

Caufield 

Weber 

The big difference is under Gainey we made the playoffs regularly. Under Bergevin we seem to always miss the playoffs except for the last 2 years which he was basically given a playoff spot.

 

My honest opinion the only reason Bergevin still has a job is because of the fact he's from Montreal. On any other team he would of been fired 3 years ago. 

This organization needs a full house cleaning in order for things to change. 

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3 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

I agree but Gainey did a full 5 year rebuild which in that time frame drafting 

Price 

Pacioretty 

Gallagher 

Subban

If we look at first-round picks only (which is how Bergevin is typically judged) Gainey's record is less impressive:

2003: Kostitsyn (10th)

2004: Chipchura  (18th)

2005: Price (5th)

2006: Fischer (20th)

2007: McDonagh (12th)

2009: Leblanc (18th)

And those picks average a much higher position than Bergevin.

 

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11 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

On balance, I think Gainey/Goat did better jobs of building the organization (even if Goat's terrible people-skills caused a meltdown in 2012). But they never did get the team to the Finals, so at least MB has that.

 

 

 

I won't comment on Gainey, but Gauthier killed the franchise to save his job. He gave picks like candy in trades and stalled the Habs' prospect pipeline. That is what MB inherited and he just started rebuilding that in the second part of his tenure

 

7 hours ago, tomh009 said:

If we look at first-round picks only (which is how Bergevin is typically judged) Gainey's record is less impressive:

2003: Kostitsyn (10th)

2004: Chipchura  (18th)

2005: Price (5th)

2006: Fischer (20th)

2007: McDonagh (12th)

2009: Leblanc (18th)

And those picks average a much higher position than Bergevin.

 

 

and this is also how I see Gainey's first draft pick record.

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10 hours ago, tomh009 said:

If we look at first-round picks only (which is how Bergevin is typically judged) Gainey's record is less impressive:

2003: Kostitsyn (10th)

2004: Chipchura  (18th)

2005: Price (5th)

2006: Fischer (20th)

2007: McDonagh (12th)

2009: Leblanc (18th)

And those picks average a much higher position than Bergevin.

 

 

That is indeed a disaster except for the home run of Price and the triple of McDonagh, but you’d have to look at the entire body of work on drafting/development, not just the first round. Price, Patches, Gally, Subban are better than any four players MB has drafted, for example (although there is hope with Caufield; and of course MB did draft Sergachev and trade him for dubious return, exactly as Bob did with McD). 

 

The real way to judge drafting/development is simply whether the team has a reliable and convincing talent pipeline to the big club. We did have that under Bob, with loads of NHLers coming up, but most of them ended up being disappointments with chequered careers (Higgins, Komi, the Kostitsyn) until the later phase, when we developed absolute studs like Patches, Subban, and Gally. 

 

We have not seen a comparable pipeline under Bergevin in terms of quantity or quality. I acknowledge, though, that the Habs’ system was generally regarded by experts as quite good as recently as last year. It just hasn’t translated to the NHL as yet. I admit to skepticism that it will do so in any high-impact way, apart from Caufield.

 

3 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

I won't comment on Gainey, but Gauthier killed the franchise to save his job. He gave picks like candy in trades and stalled the Habs' prospect pipeline. That is what MB inherited and he just started rebuilding that in the second part of his tenure

 

 

Well, that’s a good question. I recall Bob trading a lot of picks around 2008 because he was all-in for a Cup run in 2009. I don’t recall Goat trading picks away in excess, but my memory could be faulty. Goat was GM only for a brief period anyway.

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Gainey was good at drafting and developing players, under him the AHL team won a championship. But Bob was bad at trades and UFA signings.

 

Bergevin is bad at drafting and developing players, but good at trades and decent at UFA signings.

 

We just need to find a GM who's good at all those things lol. 

 

Also I do believe it's time to part ways with Timmins, don't know how the guy has lasted this long in this organization. 

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Goat traded away some second rounders for guys like Dominic Moore and looking at 2010, that clearly worked. 

He also traded away a second to get Mathieu Schneider and without him we wouldn't have made the 2009 playoffs, though whether or not that was the right move can be debated. 

I think he picked up a couple pieces for 2011 as well. 

 

That said, his biggest error was the Halak trade. He clearly picked the right goalie in sticking with Carey Price when others wanted to anoint Halak the starter. However, he should have got more for Halak given the 2010 Playoff Run.

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56 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Goat traded away some second rounders for guys like Dominic Moore and looking at 2010, that clearly worked. 

He also traded away a second to get Mathieu Schneider and without him we wouldn't have made the 2009 playoffs, though whether or not that was the right move can be debated. 

I think he picked up a couple pieces for 2011 as well. 

 

That said, his biggest error was the Halak trade. He clearly picked the right goalie in sticking with Carey Price when others wanted to anoint Halak the starter. However, he should have got more for Halak given the 2010 Playoff Run.

 

I am 99% sure that it was Gainey who acquired Schneider for the abortion of a Cup run in 2009. 

 

I thought the Cammy trade was on the stupid side too - obviously the cheap garbage of sitting Squid out mid-game, but Bourque was such a frustrating player. And what happened there? There was a player rebellion against . So Goat fired Martin. But he also traded away the main instigator (Cammy). I don't get that. Pick a lane.
 

Cunneyworth was also a disaster, but that's another story, one that probably owes as much to Molson's blundering as anything Goat said or did.

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24 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I am 99% sure that it was Gainey who acquired Schneider for the abortion of a Cup run in 2009. 

 

I thought the Cammy trade was on the stupid side too - obviously the cheap garbage of sitting Squid out mid-game, but Bourque was such a frustrating player. And what happened there? There was a player rebellion against . So Goat fired Martin. But he also traded away the main instigator (Cammy). I don't get that. Pick a lane.
 

Cunneyworth was also a disaster, but that's another story, one that probably owes as much to Molson's blundering as anything Goat said or did.

Cammy trade wasn't Gainey, it was Gauthier and cunneyworth was also gauthier 

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16 hours ago, tomh009 said:

If we look at first-round picks only (which is how Bergevin is typically judged) Gainey's record is less impressive:

2003: Kostitsyn (10th)

2004: Chipchura  (18th)

2005: Price (5th)

2006: Fischer (20th)

2007: McDonagh (12th)

2009: Leblanc (18th)

And those picks average a much higher position than Bergevin.

 

How is McDonough less impressive - it was stupidity to trade him, but he was a great pick. 
 

I see a lot more top pairing dmen and top six players drafted under Gainey, than under MB.  Hell, even AK46 was a better pick (albeit a lousy pick given the number of future HOF drafted that year), than most MB picks, and outperformed KK’s first three NHL seasons.

 

MB has never had a 2007 type of draft - McDonough, Maxpac, and Subban, with a depth player like Weber selected.

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Here is the track record of that genius, Pierre Gauthier...

 

2009-2010

trades:

Halak traded for Lars Eller and Ian Schultz

Aaron Palusha traded for D'Agostini
Ian Schultz 
S. Kostitsyn traded for Dustn Boyd and #117 draft pick

Laraque released

draft:

1st #22 Jarred Tinordi
2nd #32 traded for Lang (2008)

3rd #87 traded for Scheneider (2009)

4th #113 Mark MacMillan

4th #117 Morgan Ellis
5th #147 Brendan Gallagher
7th #207 John Westin
 

2010-2011

trades:

Auld (signed as UFA)    
Dominic Moore (lost to UFA)    
James Wisniewski traded for #50 draft pick and (lost to UFA)
Paul Mara (lost to UFA alond qith 5th round pick in 2012 given to get him)    
Sopel & Dawes traded for
Emelin (signed from KHL)    

Diaz (taken EUFA)    
Ramo (taken for C.Desjardins)    
Bournival (taken for O'Byrne)    
Lapierre traded for Festeringa nd 5th'12 that became Paul >Mara   

draft:

1st #17 Nathan Beaulieu

2nd #47 traded for Moore

2nd #50 traded for Wisniewski

3rd #77 traded for Didier  (#97) & Archambault (4th rnd)

4th #97 Josiah Didier (#97'11)

4th #107 traded for Sopel & Dawes
4th #112 received Magnus Nygren for Chipchura in trade

5th #137 Darren Dietz

6th #167 Daniel Pribyl

7th #197 Colin Sullivan

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8 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

I won't comment on Gainey, but Gauthier killed the franchise to save his job. He gave picks like candy in trades and stalled the Habs' prospect pipeline. That is what MB inherited and he just started rebuilding that in the second part of his tenure

 

 

and this is also how I see Gainey's first draft pick record.

So MB wasn’t gifted young players like Price, Maxpac, Subban, Gallagher, along with veterans like Pleks, Markov, Desharnais, gionta Gorges, and Emelin?

 

There were others like Bealieau, who I wasn’t a fan of, but has been better than most dmen drafted under MB.

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8 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

I won't comment on Gainey, but Gauthier killed the franchise to save his job. He gave picks like candy in trades and stalled the Habs' prospect pipeline. That is what MB inherited and he just started rebuilding that in the second part of his tenure

 

 

and this is also how I see Gainey's first draft pick record.

We’re is maxpac on your list? He was a late first rounder - again, better than any late first rounder drafted by MB.

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16 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

We’re is maxpac on your list? He was a late first rounder - again, better than any late first rounder drafted by MB.

https://www.prosportstransactions.com/hockey/Search/SearchResults.php?Player=&Team=canadiens&BeginDate=2010-02-08&EndDate=2012-03-29&PlayerMovementChkBx=yes&submit=Search

 

He resigned him to a 2-yr contract but didn't draft him

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55 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Cammy trade wasn't Gainey, it was Gauthier and cunneyworth was also gauthier 

 

Yes, I know. I was saying the Schneider trade was Bob's work. I thought Goat came in after the summer of 2010. But both alfredoh and Commandant have him starting in '09, so my recollection may be faulty on this.

 

 

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Interesting speculation ... Martin Lemay (host on 91.9 Sports) apparently wondered on-air if an issue with extending Bergevin may be that Habs are for sale ... I could not believe that it wouldn't leak out somewhere (i.e., as a BIG story in its own right) if that were true ... but there would be some logic in not burdening new owners with a GM signed for multiple (3/4/5) years.

 

Edited by GHT120
Clarification
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5 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Yes, I know. I was saying the Schneider trade was Bob's work. I thought Goat came in after the summer of 2010. But both alfredoh and Commandant have him starting in '09, so my recollection may be faulty on this.

 

 

 

You are correct on the Schneider trade. 

Gauthier came in midway through the 09-10 season, he definitely handled the 2010 trade deadline which was the Moore acquisition.  I'm not sure if MAB was Gainey or Gauthier though. Either way, Gauthier was Gaineys top advisor so he was somewhat involved. 

 

The Halak and Cammalleri trades are clearly his downfall. 

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As for the discussion of Gainey versus GOAT trades ... if I recall correctly there was some delegation by Gainey to GOAT after Bob's daughter perished in an sailing accident ... so some trades in Gainey's tenure may have been made, likely with BG's permission, by GOAT.

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

We’re is maxpac on your list? He was a late first rounder - again, better than any late first rounder drafted by MB.

I meant the list of players drafted by Gainey in the 1st round.

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23 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

Gainey was good at drafting and developing players, under him the AHL team won a championship. But Bob was bad at trades and UFA signings.

 

Bergevin is bad at drafting and developing players, but good at trades and decent at UFA signings.

 

 

This is a pretty shrewd generalization, actually.

 

On Bergevin, I’ve said all along that the organization has nobody - nobody - on the level of Price or Weber in the system and that once those guys go, any hope of contention seems to be forlorn. I’ll credit Bergy for engineering a legit Cup run within the vanishing windows of those two guys. But now the organization is facing what Matthew Arnold called “the naked shingles of the world:” its nearly total dearth of truly elite-level talent. Suzuki is not on the Price/Weber level and may never become that. Caufield, unlikely. 

 

He’s had a decade to prepare for the fading of Price and our #1 d-man. And, nothing.

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1 hour ago, DON said:

Another 4 or 5 losses in a row and we may see him punted anyways.

 

 

They play Detroit tomorrow night, no way they can lose that one or can they?  It's still early but it might be one of those years where everything goes wrong.  Might as well make the best of it and do a complete rebuild, make a bunch of deadline trades for draft picks and think about 3-5 years down the road with a new core. 

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