If we were to throw in the towel ...

[alfredoh2009]

2 hours ago, tomh009 said:

That should not be a question of Ducharme's system -- or even of player personnel, since almost all are well below their career shooting percentages.

Agreed 

[tomh009]

So, it appears that we are getting at lease some kind of rebuild now. The question is whether Gorton goes with a full scorched-earth approach -- which might be something like a five-year window -- or a lesser one that might involve keeping some more of the current roster, and maybe sucking for only three years or so.

[alfredoh2009]

We suck right now

 

Weber is now not coming back, if there ever was a chance

 

Petry is old and not a true #1

 

I would be surprised if Price finishes his career under the new GM. 
 

we’ll see lots of Primeau and Montembeault 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

5 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

We suck right now

 

Weber is now not coming back, if there ever was a chance

 

Petry is old and not a true #1

 

I would be surprised if Price finishes his career under the new GM. 
 

we’ll see lots of Primeau and Montembeault 

 

If the GM manages to find a taker for Price, that will be a sign that he is some sort of managerial wizard. 

 

I believe #31 will retire a Hab. And probably get his jersey retired - appropriately, IMHO, since he is the only authentically all-time great player we have had in the post-Cup era.

[Dalhabs]

20 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

If the GM manages to find a taker for Price, that will be a sign that he is some sort of managerial wizard. 

 

I believe #31 will retire a Hab. And probably get his jersey retired - appropriately, IMHO, since he is the only authentically all-time great player we have had in the post-Cup era.

I would be ok with retireing Koivu and Price because they are the two most memorable players we have had during my fandom of the team.

[Habsfan89]

Looking at the team i don't think we need a full rebuild. If we can some how end up with the 1st overall pick we may finally get that elite center we need to complement Suzuki. Then we just need to fix this D core which is the big problem. To many two way D and not enough puck moving QB type D on this team. 

 

But man this team has to many players on big long term contracts I don't think we can trade unless we take back a big chunk of it. 

[Commandant]

Too many two-way D?

 

Who is the two-way D.... we have Jeff Petry, that's it as far as two way goes.   He's also been playing much below his level this year.

 

Everyone else is one way.

[Commandant]

 

 

[tomh009]

And if we want puck-moving D, we need to accept that there will be some defensive issues. Less so if we have a strong team, but the weaker the team overall, the more visible those gaps will be.

 

I'll quote from Dryden's Scotty book for some perspective:

 

Quote

[Red] Kelly was a different story. He had been a big star on the great Wings teams of the early 1950s, and a defenceman like no other in the history of the NHL. From 1950 until 1956, he never scored less than 15 goals a season. Three times he finished in the top 10 in scoring. "No other defenceman in the league was even close," Scotty says. Then the Wings fell off, and so did Kelly. It's one thing to play differently when you're winning, and another when you're losing. When you're winning, what's different seems natural and part of the whole excitement. When you're losing, it becomes a focus itself, and you become a target. For the Wings, the puck that had often ended up in the other guy's net was now more often in their own. And questions were being asked, like" What's Kelly doing up the ice all the time?

 

"On a winning team," Scotty says, "you're not spending a lot of time in your own end, where Kelly was weaker. You're on attack, where he was at his best." (...)

 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I'm not sure Suzuki won't become a legit #1C. But I am less sanguine about a 70-80-point Suzuki being followed by Dvorak as #2C. That doesn't seem like a recipe for a contender to me.

 

So, we need one top-6 C. We need a #1 D. With Petry 33 years old, we also need a #2 D, or will need one within the next 1-3 seasons. (The way Petry is playing right now, he is more like a #4-5). 

 

We will also need a legitimate #1G within the next 2-3 seasons.

 

So:

 

At least one top-6 C

Two top-pairing d-men

A #1G

 

Conversely, the situation at W is acceptable and probably will remain so over the next 3-4 seasons. 

 

Is this a rebuild situation? Considering that we will probably have to move a couple of the W to get the assets we need, it may well be. 

[tomh009]

I was hopeful that Dvorak would be a legit 2C, but based on the first 20+ games, I'm not so confident in that now. But a 2C should at least be much easier to find (whether draft, trade or UFA) than a 1C.

 

And starting goalies can be found, too, sometimes at least as good as Carey Price (better than the carey price of last year's regular season but not the CAREY PRICE of last year's playoffs). Think Halak, for example.

 

Based on today's press conference, I think some kind of a rebuild is ahead. But how much will Gorton want to keep, and how much will he trade for prospects and picks, we will have to wait and see. But we'll surely be sellers at the deadline.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

2 hours ago, tomh009 said:

Based on today's press conference, I think some kind of a rebuild is ahead. But how much will Gorton want to keep, and how much will he trade for prospects and picks, we will have to wait and see. But we'll surely be sellers at the deadline.

 

Agreed, that is my take on it as well.  I am glad Gorton is the replacement because he wasn't afraid of the term "rebuild" in New York and they are a pretty decent team right now because of the changes he made. 

[DON]

12 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Agreed, that is my take on it as well.  I am glad Gorton is the replacement because he wasn't afraid of the term "rebuild" in New York and they are a pretty decent team right now because of the changes he made. 

Bit different, most NHLers seem to want to play in NYC. so bit easier sell to free agents/NCAA kids.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

20 minutes ago, DON said:

Bit different, most NHLers seem to want to play in NYC. so bit easier sell to free agents/NCAA kids.

 

That is a good point.  Adam Fox for example. 

[Habsfan89]

If Price doesn't want to be traded then you don't rebuild you try to win a cup.

 

You don't rebuild with price on the team. 

[tomh009]

13 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

You don't rebuild with price on the team. 

If it's carey price (recent regular seasons) we have, a Cup run is not realistic. If it's CAREY PRICE (last year's playoffs), maybe there is some hope, but definitely not with current year's defence corps.

 

But I do think Molson and Gorton are going to go down the rebuild path.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

13 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

If Price doesn't want to be traded then you don't rebuild you try to win a cup.

 

You don't rebuild with price on the team. 

 

I would love to be wrong but I think the window to win with Price has definitely closed unless he can still be an elite goaltender 4-5 years from now which is possible.  A rebuild will likely have to be done with some veterans as some contracts will be too difficult to move with Price's contract being the most difficult.  Trying to win with Price on the team isn't going to happen short term. 

[Commandant]

this is 100% going to be a rebuild

 

Gorton started a rebuild with King Henrik on the team in New York. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

2 hours ago, Commandant said:

this is 100% going to be a rebuild

 

Gorton started a rebuild with King Henrik on the team in New York. 

 

Good point. I think Molson realized a rebuild is likely the way to go and Gorton is the man to do it.  The press conference with Gorton (assuming they have one) will be interesting and should provide a lot of clues. 

[tomh009]

46 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Good point. I think Molson realized a rebuild is likely the way to go and Gorton is the man to do it.  The press conference with Gorton (assuming they have one) will be interesting and should provide a lot of clues. 

I expect there will be one, fairly soon after he arrives.

 

He'll be wanting to work with Lapointe, Ducharme, Ramage and Bouillon to figure out what they have that they want to keep as the base for the rebuild, so he won't have all the answers immediately, but the direction should be clear.

[Habsfan89]

12 hours ago, tomh009 said:

I expect there will be one, fairly soon after he arrives.

 

He'll be wanting to work with Lapointe, Ducharme, Ramage and Bouillon to figure out what they have that they want to keep as the base for the rebuild, so he won't have all the answers immediately, but the direction should be clear.

It's funny when we did our retool some of us wanted a full rebuild which Ment trading Price, Weber, Gallagher, Petry, Danault, Byron all when their trade value was high and we could get good picks and prospects for them even if it Ment eating some of Price and Webers contract and we got ripped for it by people in here who didn't want to go though a rebuild. 

 

Now it looks like we're going to go through a full rebuild and we lost Danault for nothing, lost Weber for nothing, and Gallagher, petry, Byron and Price have little trade value and big contracts. 

 

We would of been better off 4 years ago then now. Now we got too many guys under expensive long tern contracts. 

 

This rebuild is going to be interesting to see what happens. 

 

 

[TurdBurglar]

On 11/20/2021 at 8:15 AM, tomh009 said:

This also shows in the very low shooting percentage.

 

What I don't understand is why they are struggling so badly with putting the puck in the net when they do have chances. That should not be a question of Ducharme's system -- or even of player personnel, since almost all are well below their career shooting percentages.

I’m not sure why that wouldn’t put Ducharme’s system in question.  I would point out the shots per game is wayyyy down from the last couple of season.  They are getting desperate for shots and throwing them on net from everywhere.

How many times the last couple of seasons have we seen a period with less than 7 shots?  It happens nearly every game this year.  I fully believe Ducharme’s system is partially to blame.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

I don't think it's a question anymore of "if we were to throw in the towel ",  the Bruins are in the last wild card spot and are 15 points ahead of the Habs with 5 games in hand.  At least that decision will be easy for Gorton as nobody in their right mind will dispute that it's time to trade veterans for picks/prospects. 

 

The only question is who will be he be able to trade for a decent return,  as discussed here some contracts make it more difficult to trade some guys (ie Price, Gallagher and likely Petry) and those would likely be summer deals.