What would you do if you were the GM?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

It’s not clear to me that Poehling is a legit NHLer…never mind a first-line guy

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

31 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

It’s not clear to me that Poehling is a legit NHLer…never mind a first-line guy

 

This is the make it or break it year for Poehling.  He has shown flashes but not the consistency needed. I have been more optimistic than most regarding Poehling's potential but I could be proven wrong (wouldn't be the 1st time).

 

It wouldn't surprise me if he was included (obviously not the main piece) in any package to move up in the draft. Maybe going back home to Minnesota would inspire him and they have 2 first round picks now. 

 

 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

with one week to go before the draft and two more before the UFA market opens, I thought it would be a good time to revisit this thread. I would:

1. I would draft Wright

2. I would shop draft picks, Anderson, Drouin, Harris in different packages/combinations to try to get another top-10 pick

3. I would seriously package Hoffman and Armia with picks to make room for prospects and on the cap

4. If the consensus from the scouting team is that Wright may be NHL ready (bottom lines) I would plan to play Poehling on Suzuki's wing with Caufield, instead of Anderson and others. I think he can fit there

5. I would aim at drafting a RD stud and best goalie available this draft

 

Projected top two lines would and top two D pairs:

Poehling-Suzuki-Caufield

(*)-Dvorak-Anderson   (*)-> one of Drouin, Dadonov, Hoffman

Romanov-Savard

Edmundson- (*)           (*)-> Petry until traded, Barron thereafter

 

Habs need elite talent

 

In response to your plans;

 

1) Not a scout so I pray they make the right choice as you don't get the #1 pick often  - Wright or whomever

2) Agree and and I have no doubt HuGo is doing this as we type

3) Offloading these contracts would give them more flexibility - not sure what the cost would be 

4) as discussed in my last post this is a year Poehling has to prove it. Maybe Slaf will be their winger? 

5) They do have Barron and Mailloux in the system so another RD is fine if they are the BPA. I agree with Commandant on goalies as they are so hard to project. 

 

I think we would all agree that they need elite talent. I am all in favour of trading up if there is a guy they want. They don't need 14 picks. 

[alfredoh2009]

on Poehling:

he is a reliable two way player with decent size, skating and speed of play. He seems to come alive in physical games and has shown good hands in tight spaces. He has good vision and can follow the play of more skilled players.

He has played center for most of his NHL career and has ok FO% (has been improving), he is a lefty that would be a great complement to Suzuki being a righty. He has been hurt in the past two seasons, but so far shows to be less pron eto injury than Armia or Anderson.

He is a good forecheker and last season looked fine on board battles.

 

He is close in age to Suzuki and Caufield.

 

He could be what "Burrows" was to the Sedins, or Danault to Gallagher and Tatar.

 

He has not produced too many points but has improved every season:

(sorry, pay wall... but it makes my point)

https://theathletic.com/3141233/2022/02/21/basu-and-godin-ryan-poehlings-progressing-before-our-eyes-nick-suzukis-accelerated-leadership-curve-and-more/

 

This old analysis kind of supports my point on why I see him more as a winger; specially if the Habs pick Wright:

https://jhanhky.substack.com/p/the-ryan-poehling-solution

 

Finally, this other one also points out how Poehling improved and may have a better eason next year:

https://thehockeywriters.com/canadiens-rebound-2022-23-dvorak-gallagher/

 

[DON]

Poehling seems pretty much a bust to me, if expecting a 15-20g scorer.

Sure, he may end up eaking out a minor role, but easily replaceable/expendable isnt he? 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I’ve seen dozens of Habs’ prospects receive notices of the kind alfredoh gives for Poehling above. Hardly any of them have come close to fulfilling them. Poehling was a borderline NHLer on a historically sh*tty team last season. Now, he may indeed improve and gradually become a legitimate, established player. But right now he is totally unproven as anything more than a scrub at this level.

[alfredoh2009]

On a rebuilding club, the value from trading Anderson and playing Poehling as a stop gap on a cheap contract is far not enticing to me than to dump on the player and to flush him out 

[Commandant]

I don't think the two are related.  I would trade Anderson, but there are a number of players I'd put with Suzuki-Caufield before choosing Poehling. 

[alfredoh2009]

12 hours ago, Commandant said:

I don't think the two are related.  I would trade Anderson, but there are a number of players I'd put with Suzuki-Caufield before choosing Poehling. 

fair point

[Meller93]

I see more in Poehling than it seems most here do. I think he has a solid chance to become a third line, 15 goal 30 point guy, who has a physical edge and is reasonable defensively. 

In his last 2 seasons of AHL play he has 31 points in 35 games, then is his first prolonged NHL stretch he had 17 points in 57. 

I see the Habs being improved under MSL. If healthy and a full 82 games season, I see no reason he can't reach that 15-15 mark and win over some fans 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

14 minutes ago, Meller93 said:

I see more in Poehling than it seems most here do. I think he has a solid chance to become a third line, 15 goal 30 point guy, who has a physical edge and is reasonable defensively. 

In his last 2 seasons of AHL play he has 31 points in 35 games, then is his first prolonged NHL stretch he had 17 points in 57. 

I see the Habs being improved under MSL. If healthy and a full 82 games season, I see no reason he can't reach that 15-15 mark and win over some fans 

 

I agree, I think this is his year to prove it. 

[dlbalr]

32 minutes ago, Meller93 said:

I see more in Poehling than it seems most here do. I think he has a solid chance to become a third line, 15 goal 30 point guy, who has a physical edge and is reasonable defensively. 

In his last 2 seasons of AHL play he has 31 points in 35 games, then is his first prolonged NHL stretch he had 17 points in 57. 

I see the Habs being improved under MSL. If healthy and a full 82 games season, I see no reason he can't reach that 15-15 mark and win over some fans 

 

But remember that most of those points came in 2020-21 when the level of competition in the AHL was much worse than usual as all of the good AHL veterans were up on NHL taxi squads.  Good for him for doing better but it would have been hard not to considering some of Laval's few opponents were dressing a bunch of ECHL-calibre players.  There's nothing much to really glean developmentally from that season for any of Montreal's prospects, not just Poehling.

[DON]

58 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I agree, I think this is his year to prove it. 

I think the 57 games last year was his chance to show "something".

[alfredoh2009]

31 minutes ago, DON said:

I think the 57 games last year was his chance to show "something".

 

and he did, if you temper expectations.

 

IMHO, Ylonen and Poehling are players that elevate their game to the level of their linemates. If left on the 4th line, they will underperform and dissapoint. On a 3rd line they will be passable.

With PP time and playing on a scoring line, they will produce when they have matured.

 

I think Poehling can surprise, like Lehkonen did.

 

To a lesser degree, Ylonen may become a good secondary scoring winger

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

42 minutes ago, DON said:

I think the 57 games last year was his chance to show "something".

 

Last year was a mess, coaching change 1/2 way through the year.  It took a while for Caulfield to show something last year.  

[Sir_Boagalott]

On 7/3/2022 at 3:01 PM, alfredoh2009 said:

 

and he did, if you temper expectations.

 

IMHO, Ylonen and Poehling are players that elevate their game to the level of their linemates. If left on the 4th line, they will underperform and dissapoint. On a 3rd line they will be passable.

With PP time and playing on a scoring line, they will produce when they have matured.

 

I think Poehling can surprise, like Lehkonen did.

 

To a lesser degree, Ylonen may become a good secondary scoring winger

 

I've said that before about Poehling too.  I think the same of Armia as well.  I think part of that is how the Habs seem to often lack faith or confidence in some of their young prospects.  They also seem to highly criticize or punish mistakes too, which makes it even harder on young players. 

 

That's why I'm stoked to have Gorton, Hughes and MSL because finally they are not like past Pres', GMs or coaches.  Under the new management it seems that the way players are drafted, developed, utilized and treated will be brand new to the Habs.  That in itself will be a big improvement.

[alfredoh2009]

5 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

I've said that before about Poehling too.  I think the same of Armia as well.  I think part of that is how the Habs seem to often lack faith or confidence in some of their young prospects.  They also seem to highly criticize or punish mistakes too, which makes it even harder on young players. 

 

That's why I'm stoked to have Gorton, Hughes and MSL because finally they are not like past Pres', GMs or coaches.  Under the new management it seems that the way players are drafted, developed, utilized and treated will be brand new to the Habs.  That in itself will be a big improvement.

tempered expectations: St-Louis hasn’t had to coach to win anything of significance yet. DD used to say that “the game is honest”, it yields an even return in the long run and MSL has to go through his own growing pains as he matures as a coach.

In a similar way, we are still years away to see how “the game” responds to Hugh-Gort’s plan: will they win the cup for Montreal or not?

[DON]

1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

In a similar way, we are still years away to see how “the game” responds to Hugh-Gort’s plan: will they win the cup for Montreal or not?

Yup, lots of fun hockey to watch eh, looking forward to it. How will the new kid(s), like Guhle, Ylonen, Norlinder (seems a bust but who knows), Wright, Barron, and Harris pan out?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

In an explicit “rebuilding” period, you would expect young players to get a lot of leeway, with an emphasis on teaching and tolerating mistakes.

 

If, by contrast, your team is in a dogfight to make the playoffs, or else to go deep, you still want to bring young guys along, but they naturally have less room to screw up and get less ice time if they do so on the regular.

 

The reason the Habs have tended to take a cautious, defensive approach to young players may partly have to do with plodding and unimaginative coaching, but I’d guess that the deeper underlying cause is that the Habs have hardly ever been in “rebuilding” mode. There was the early Gainey window (2003-2007) and that’s about it.

[alfredoh2009]

16 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

In an explicit “rebuilding” period, you would expect young players to get a lot of leeway, with an emphasis on teaching and tolerating mistakes.

 

If, by contrast, your team is in a dogfight to make the playoffs, or else to go deep, you still want to bring young guys along, but they naturally have less room to screw up and get less ice time if they do so on the regular.

 

The reason the Habs have tended to take a cautious, defensive approach to young players may partly have to do with plodding and unimaginative coaching, but I’d guess that the deeper underlying cause is that the Habs have hardly ever been in “rebuilding” mode. There was the early Gainey window (2003-2007) and that’s about it.

I agree with that. One one Bergevin’s downfalls was his opposition to commit to a rebuild.

Gainey was the OG-retool GM

 

This is why the Habs need to purposely finish bottom 3 in the league next season and get a couple of high first round picks next year in the draft 

[hab29RETIRED]

6 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

In an explicit “rebuilding” period, you would expect young players to get a lot of leeway, with an emphasis on teaching and tolerating mistakes.

 

If, by contrast, your team is in a dogfight to make the playoffs, or else to go deep, you still want to bring young guys along, but they naturally have less room to screw up and get less ice time if they do so on the regular.

 

The reason the Habs have tended to take a cautious, defensive approach to young players may partly have to do with plodding and unimaginative coaching, but I’d guess that the deeper underlying cause is that the Habs have hardly ever been in “rebuilding” mode. There was the early Gainey window (2003-2007) and that’s about it.

I kind of agree with you. I do agree we need to give young players more leeway. But I DON’T want us to be playing player that don’t belong in the NHL. We need to make sure they develop in the right spot and at the pace they need.

 

a rebuild doesn’t mean playing guys that aren’t ready. 

[alfredoh2009]

1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I kind of agree with you. I do agree we need to give young players more leeway. But I DON’T want us to be playing player that don’t belong in the NHL. We need to make sure they develop in the right spot and at the pace they need.

 

a rebuild doesn’t mean playing guys that aren’t ready. 

but I love watching Pezzetta do his thing 

[Sir_Boagalott]

8 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

In an explicit “rebuilding” period, you would expect young players to get a lot of leeway, with an emphasis on teaching and tolerating mistakes.

 

If, by contrast, your team is in a dogfight to make the playoffs, or else to go deep, you still want to bring young guys along, but they naturally have less room to screw up and get less ice time if they do so on the regular.

 

The reason the Habs have tended to take a cautious, defensive approach to young players may partly have to do with plodding and unimaginative coaching, but I’d guess that the deeper underlying cause is that the Habs have hardly ever been in “rebuilding” mode. There was the early Gainey window (2003-2007) and that’s about it.

 

I basically feel the same way but view it slightly different. 

 

Some people here call the Habs team Bubble team, and I hate that because I find it disgustingly disrespectful.  Bubble team is a derogatory term that should be used for other teams and not your own. 

 

They are often in dog fights to make the playoffs, but that isnt due to lack of talent, its because they have injuries.  I call the Habs team injury prone and get healthy scrape into playoffs and win 1 or 2 rounds. 

 

They often seem to over exaggerate mistakes.  ex:  you cough up the puck, other team scores, Habs lose the game and miss playoffs by 2 pts, and its all your fault.  Then think, putting that on a young developing player. 

 

I don't view it as a "rebuild" in that sense, more like some years they should decide to be a buyer or seller at the trade deadline.  Try to make the playoffs every year, but in certain years its ok to fail to do so.  That could even be pre-planed.  i.e.: when its known that a strong draft year is coming up, or if there is a McDavid or Beddard - give numerous prospects spots.  Ex:  at some point Poehling should have been given a spot for 1 year, if there is a strong draft give numerous prospects a chance that same year.   

 

[hab29RETIRED]

2 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

I basically feel the same way but view it slightly different. 

 

Some people here call the Habs team Bubble team, and I hate that because I find it disgustingly disrespectful.  Bubble team is a derogatory term that should be used for other teams and not your own. 

 

They are often in dog fights to make the playoffs, but that isnt due to lack of talent, its because they have injuries.  I call the Habs team injury prone and get healthy scrape into playoffs and win 1 or 2 rounds. 

 

They often seem to over exaggerate mistakes.  ex:  you cough up the puck, other team scores, Habs lose the game and miss playoffs by 2 pts, and its all your fault.  Then think, putting that on a young developing player. 

 

I don't view it as a "rebuild" in that sense, more like some years they should decide to be a buyer or seller at the trade deadline.  Try to make the playoffs every year, but in certain years its ok to fail to do so.  That could even be pre-planed.  i.e.: when its known that a strong draft year is coming up, or if there is a McDavid or Beddard - give numerous prospects spots.  Ex:  at some point Poehling should have been given a spot for 1 year, if there is a strong draft give numerous prospects a chance that same year.   

 

I think calling the habs a bubble team right now is disrespectful to bubble teams. We are a bad team.

 

we were a bubble team in previous years and it wasn’t always due to injuries. It was because we had a lack of talent and zero depth. The rangers didn’t fild when Lundquist went down in 2014-2015. Talbot came in and got them into the playoffs. The team had enough depth. When price went down the following year in 2915-2016 the habs folded like a cheap tent. MB didn’t try to get an NHL level goalie.  When the pens lost Crosby, Malkin, Letang, stall, or when Fleury wasn’t perfuming over the years, there was a bough talent and other guys stepped up. Hell, the pens win their first cup with Crosby knocked out of the finals. No way do we have close to that kind of talented depth.
 

For most of the Bergevin years we were a bubble team. In between being mainly a bubble team, we had a few yo-yo seasons of being bad/horrible, to decent/good. But under most of MB’s tenure we were a bubble team that did not have enough talent to ever expected to contend - let alone be a perennial contender. Ditto with the Gainey years. The Houle years were even worse. We have been the definition of a bubble team for almost 30 years now. We had some decent to good seasons sprinkled in with some horrid seasons. But for the most part we have been a bubble team. That’s not disrespectful, that is just the way it is.

 

You maybe okay with continuing with that path of scrapping into the playoffs and then feeling anything can happen, im not. Im sick of it. For the first time since the early 90’s I actually have some optimism that we have a management team can start acquiring and developing a talented team. That may require another year of losing then wasting cap space on more garbage players like Hoffman, Savard, or giving up a 1st and 2nd pick for a mediocre third line centre. I’m okay with that. I’m done with the idiotic crap player drafting and development approach, where winning depends solely on having a Price, Halak, or Theadore be the primary reason for our success.  
 

it’s been a long time since the habs had a steady stream of talented players come into the lineup even after winning a cups (Lafleur, Robinson, Shutt), all joined cup winning teams, and were major pieces to the 70’s dynasties. In the. 80’s we had Chelios, Roy, Lemieux, Richer, Schneider, all drafted and developed. 
 

With the just scrape in and anything can happen approach, Bergevin had 3 top 10 picks (two top 3), and we don’t have a single one of those players on our team today. That is the sign of a badly managed team.
 

I’m hoping tomorrow we start back on the path of good drafting and development. But we need at least another year of trying to accumulate ELITE level talent, and I’m optimistic we have a management team that can get it done. This summer and the next two years is going to be the biggest test to see if we have a management team that can build a sustainable contending team, and get us out of being a perennial bubble team.

 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

3 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

 For the first time since the early 90’s I actually have some optimism that we have a management team can start acquiring and developing a talented team.
 

I’m hoping tomorrow we start back on the path of good drafting and development. But we need at least another year of trying to accumulate ELITE level talent, and I’m optimistic we have a management team that can get it done. This summer and the next two years is going to be the biggest test to see if we have a management team that can build a sustainable contending team, and get us out of being a perennial bubble team.

 

 

I share your optimism. Everything Hughes has done so far leads me to believe they have the right team in place. I am excited to see what tomorrow brings.