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Toffoli traded to Calgary


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33 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

He was the one that continually played Savard and Chairot together. Two players with the exact same strengths and weaknesses who were routinely beat the same way game after game - because Ducharme did not use analytics or even have the common sense to listen to others who complained about it too.

Yes, that, too, was an issue, though I would argue a separate one. :)

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1 minute ago, Commandant said:

Id see if we can flip Pitlick who is an impending UFA for like a 5th or 6th rounder.  Why not?  Teams always look for grinders at the deadline. 

We could even retain half his salary for the rest of the season ...

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8 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Is it possible to have a Pitlick line before we trade him?

 

Pitlick to Pitlick, over to Pitlick

 

I joked in a post a few weeks ago that the Habs should trade for Tyler Pitlick to unite the family. Didn't think Hughes would listen to me?   LOL

 

That way when the Habs beat the Penquins the papers could say "Pitlicks Pound Pittsburgh".  I posted this before. 

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A lot of posts on here saying “great, Heineman may become another Lehks.” Well, geez…I know Lehks is a good player…but I was kind of hoping for more than a future bottom-6er and a late 1st in return for 30-goal-scoring Toffoli. 🤷‍♂️

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3 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

A lot of posts on here saying “great, Heineman may become another Lehks.” Well, geez…I know Lehks is a good player…but I was kind of hoping for more than a future bottom-6er and a late 1st in return for 30-goal-scoring Toffoli. 🤷‍♂️

I was one of those comparing him to Lehks (may be the only one?). Lehkonen has the highest (or close to it) generated chances for 60min, He misses may chances and doesn't get the breaks, but I believe he could be a midle-6 forward on most teams and would flirt with 15-20 goals on a more offensive role.

 

If the Swedish prospect can score 15-20 and be a 200 feet player, I will be happy with that. If he is better than that, I will be ecstatic!

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Just now, alfredoh2009 said:

I was one of those comparing him to Lehks (may be the only one?). Lehkonen has the highest (or close to it) generated chances for 60min, He misses may chances and doesn't get the breaks, but I believe he could be a midle-6 forward on most teams and would flirt with 15-20 goals on a more offensive role.

 

If the Swedish prospect can score 15-20 and be a 200 feet player, I will be happy with that. If he is better than that, I will be ecstatic!

 

Lehkonen is a bottom-6 FW, and only on the worst team in hockey would fans be imagining that he could thrive in an offensive role. He will never get a bigger role than he has right now on this complete POS team.

 

So I guess I have trouble getting excited about a future role player. Now if someone wants to come out and say, “this guy has significant top-6 upside,” I’d welcome that 😉 Not “top-6” defined in some torturous way that ignores actual offensive production and skills. But rather a clear-cut top-6 guy. 

 

Another way to put it is that, at face value, based on limited info, this looks like an organizational downgrade. This is not trading Patches for a blue-chip top-6 C prospect; it’s trading a 30-goal man for a future role player. Or at least that’s what it looks like to my inexpert eye.

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1 hour ago, Neech said:

I would have wanted a higher value asset in return for Toffoli - a late 1st and a marginal prospect isn't much for one of our few guys on a decent contract.  H

 

21 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

A lot of posts on here saying “great, Heineman may become another Lehks.” Well, geez…I know Lehks is a good player…but I was kind of hoping for more than a future bottom-6er and a late 1st in return for 30-goal-scoring Toffoli. 🤷‍♂️

 

And, what would of been acceptable to you guys?

What did other teams offer for Toffoli, or what did you expect to be offered?

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Unless Emil Heineman is a good prospect, I really don’t like this deal. Not enough of a return for Taffoli who is on a great contract.


The only way I think it could be good is Calgary suddenly fell of a cliff, and got a top 10 pick in the draft, moving this pick to next year. If the flames lose Gaudreau, more of a chance to see them drop next year. But I won’t hold my breath waiting for either.
 

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3 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Unless Emil Heineman is a good prospect, I really don’t like this deal. Not enough of a return for Taffoli who is on a great contract.


The only way I think it could be good is Calgary suddenly fell of a cliff, and got a top 10 pick in the draft, moving this pick to next year. If the flames lose Gaudreau, more of a chance to see them drop next year. But I won’t hold my breath waiting for either.
 

I think just the fact you spelled his name correctly is a good omen.

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1 minute ago, DON said:

And, what would of been acceptable to you guys?

What did other teams offer for Toffoli, or what did you expect to be offered?

 

I think the Habs got a pretty decent return. They were never going to get a 20 year old, sure fire top 6 forward.  Teams don't generally trade that type pf player unless they are getting back a real difference maker.  Toffoli is good but I don't think he was ever going to generate that kind of return.  They got a 1st round pick (likely 20-30 range) in what is supposed to be a pretty good draft year and a guy drafted 43 who looks to have speed and character.  He looks pretty darn talented in the clips I saw, apparently the Habs really wanted him. There are no guarantees but I am good with this trade.  It's a year when the scouts have to nail it.  

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The return was less than I had hoped for ... so I decided to take a look at Toffoli's career.

His per 82 games goal scoring has been: 

Season        G    G/82

2012–13      2    16.4
2013–14    12    15.9
2014–15    23    24.8
2015–16    31    31.0
2016–17    16    20.8
2017–18    24    24.0
2018–19    13    13.0
2019–20    18    28.9 (25.4 until 6 in 10 games with Vancouver boosted it)
2020–21    28    44.2
2021–22      9    19.9

 

Excluding last season's VERY unusual circumstances, and his legit 31 goal season in 15/16, Toffoli is a 21g/82 games scorer ... so an elite 3rd line scorer or a solid 2nd line scorer for a Cup contender ... In that context I perhaps had over-valued him.

 

I also wonder if in his (presumed) discussion with Hughes he indicated that although he would be happy (as he said publicly) to be part of the solution, if the Habs were going full rebuild then he would prefer (but not demand) a trade to a team chasing a Cup ... AND/OR ... that he loved Montreal and if traded would look forward to speaking to Hughes in the summer of 2024 as the Habs should be looking to add veterans for a playoff/Cup chase.

 

 

ALSO, per CapFriendly the Habs can now take on full-AAV contracts of a total of $8.66M ... that leaves Hughes some flexibility to be a "third-team" in some deadline deals ... that assumes Price is out for the season, which is looking possible as he seems to have again stopped his rehab at the basic "skating in full equipment" stage,

 

 

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18 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

ALSO, per CapFriendly the Habs can now take on full-AAV contracts of a total of $8.66M ... that leaves Hughes some flexibility to be a "third-team" in some deadline deals ... that assumes Price is out for the season, which is looking possible as he seems to have again stopped his rehab at the basic "skating in full equipment" stage,

 

Assuming Price doesn't come back this season, this is correct.  If Price does come back this season, subtract $10.5 million off that $8.66 million figure (they'll have to send multiple players down just to get cap-compliant).  If Price returns, they'll be hard-pressed to be a third-team facilitator.  

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55 minutes ago, DON said:

Well...can i say, that was to be expected or a given.:ph34r:

 

I would have went after their top prospect, their 1st rounder this year unprotected, a 2nd next year, and Harvey the Hound. Anything less is unacceptable

 

:sarcasm_on:

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1 minute ago, illWill said:

 

I would have went after their top prospect, their 1st rounder this year unprotected, a 2nd next year, and Harvey the Hound. Anything less is unacceptable

 

:sarcasm_on:

 

You could have asked for Harvey the Hound but zero chance you would have got him. He is untouchable. 

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2 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

Found this clip of Heineman's goals this year on another board.  He looks pretty talented and has been hot lately. 

 

 

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/emil-heineman.2870797/

I only looked at one prospect site, didn’t seem someone that will be a top 6. Can always hope, but there were other prospects that I wish we could have pried from the Flames.

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1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I think the Habs got a pretty decent return. They were never going to get a 20 year old, sure fire top 6 forward.  Teams don't generally trade that type pf player unless they are getting back a real difference maker.  Toffoli is good but I don't think he was ever going to generate that kind of return.  They got a 1st round pick (likely 20-30 range) in what is supposed to be a pretty good draft year and a guy drafted 43 who looks to have speed and character.  He looks pretty darn talented in the clips I saw, apparently the Habs really wanted him. There are no guarantees but I am good with this trade.  It's a year when the scouts have to nail it.  

I thought we could have gotten more, simply because you would think Calgary is all in, with uncertainty around Gaudreau, and been willing to give up more. They still also need another dman though, and maybe that’s what they’ll be willing to move a better prospect for.

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1 hour ago, DON said:

 

 

And, what would of been acceptable to you guys?

What did other teams offer for Toffoli, or what did you expect to be offered?

 

Well, who do we have who can be expected to bring back a better return than Toffoli? If a reliable 30-goal man on a great deal brings back a third-line prospect and a late 1st-rounder, is Chiarot going to do better? Or a struggling, incompetent Petry? Or an expensive, long-term, oft-injured Gallagher?

 

I was hoping for a lower-grade version of the Suzuki deal in return for Toffoli, i.e., Calgary gives back a credible top-6 prospect who can help a team in 2-3 years in return for a scorer who can help them now. 

 

I guess the approach to this sell-off will be "quantity over quality" - i.e., collect a bunch of late firsts and seconds, add a couple of decent-not-great prospects, and cross your fingers you hit the jackpot on one or two of the picks. And maybe that's the best we dare hope for, but I personally was looking forward to a little more.

 

 

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I have it from a source that tends to be dead on that we hosed them because Heinemam is going to be a stud. Hope he proves to be right as always. 

Personally, I am now cheering for a collapse in Calgary so this pick becomes next years. Not likely but that is my hope.

 

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23 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

...  If a reliable 30-goal man on a great deal brings back a third-line prospect and a late 1st-rounder ...

Since when is Toffoli a reliable 30-goal man ... 31 goals once ... 44.2/82 games in amid Covid Confusion last season ... but he had only one other goals/82 games season above 25 (see my post above) ... 

 

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