huzer Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 I really liked Toffoli, but how is he a reliable 30 goal scorer, when he’s hit 30 goals once (twice, given 28 in 44 last year). He’s not Patches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Lehkonen is a bottom-6 FW, and only on the worst team in hockey would fans be imagining that he could thrive in an offensive role. He will never get a bigger role than he has right now on this complete POS team. So I guess I have trouble getting excited about a future role player. Now if someone wants to come out and say, “this guy has significant top-6 upside,” I’d welcome that 😉 Not “top-6” defined in some torturous way that ignores actual offensive production and skills. But rather a clear-cut top-6 guy. Another way to put it is that, at face value, based on limited info, this looks like an organizational downgrade. This is not trading Patches for a blue-chip top-6 C prospect; it’s trading a 30-goal man for a future role player. Or at least that’s what it looks like to my inexpert eye. I read @Commandant's report on Heineman and it looked similar to what I remember reading about Lehkonen when he was still in Europe. Lehkonen's scoring in the amateur leagues never translated to the NHL. These three websites projected him as a bottom-6 forward, which is a dissapointing return on Toffoli: https://lastwordonsports.com/hockey/2020/05/22/emil-heineman-scouting-report/ https://dobberprospects.com/player/emil-heineman/ https://www.thedraftanalyst.com/2020-nhl-draft/2020-draft-profile-lw-emil-heineman/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 17 minutes ago, GHT120 said: Since when is Toffoli a reliable 30-goal man ... 31 goals once ... 44.2/82 games in amid Covid Confusion last season ... but he had only one other goals/82 games season above 25 (see my post above) ... OK, OK...it's only his last two seasons that have had him at a 30 goal pace 🙄 That doesn't count, apparently. And for the record, I didn't say we should have a Suzuki return for him...I said a more modest version of the Suzuki deal. If H-man becomes a quality top-6 FW, then this deal is just fine by me. If he becomes a checker, then I remain perplexed as to how trading a top-6 FW on a terrific contract in return for a bottom-6er constitutes shrewd asset management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 23 minutes ago, GHT120 said: Since when is Toffoli a reliable 30-goal man ... 31 goals once ... 44.2/82 games in amid Covid Confusion last season ... but he had only one other goals/82 games season above 25 (see my post above) ... 24.3g/82 average 30 isnt huge stretch on a 1/2 decent team, but he is 24g/yr guy. NOW, what can they get for Hoffman, i surely hope he has no future in a Habs jersey. He seems like his PP shot would help any contender. Will he likely be dealt also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 23 minutes ago, GHT120 said: Since when is Toffoli a reliable 30-goal man ... 31 goals once ... 44.2/82 games in amid Covid Confusion last season ... but he had only one other goals/82 games season above 25 (see my post above) ... Agreed, if you look at his entire body of work (including last year, I know you didn't include that in your average ) he has averaged 25goals/82 games. Pacioretty was a reliable 30 goal man and so you would expect a better return for Max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 4 minutes ago, DON said: 24.3g/82 average 30 isnt huge stretch on a 1/2 decent team, but he is 24g/yr guy. NOW, what can they get for Hoffman, i surely hope he has no future in a Habs jersey. He seems like his PP shot would help any contender. Will he likely be dealt also? I think Hoffman will be harder to trade because his contract is not as friendly as Toffoli's and Toffoli has a better reputation in a lot of areas (better 2 way player, very popular teammate). I also think the trade today made a lot of veterans scratch their head and wonder if they want to stay. Today was a clear signal of the direction they are going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 9 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: Agreed, if you look at his entire body of work (including last year, I know you didn't include that in your average ) he has averaged 25goals/82 games. Pacioretty was a reliable 30 goal man and so you would expect a better return for Max. I agree. Patches should indeed have gotten a better return than Toffoli. In fact, he got back a potential #1C in Suzuki. It seems fair to me to say that Toffoli should have returned us a solid candidate to become a top-6 W. That is a lesser return. Instead if that, we get a guy most experts are pegging as a bottom-6 W. And we're being told to click our heels together because Toffoli "only" averages 25 goals per year instead of 30 🙄 At this rate, we'll get back a potential #7 defenceman for Hoffman and be told to pop the champagne. Anyway, I hope I'm wrong and Heinman beats the odds to become a legit 2nd-line W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 50 minutes ago, johnnyhasbeen said: I have it from a source that tends to be dead on that we hosed them because Heinemam is going to be a stud. Hope he proves to be right as always. Personally, I am now cheering for a collapse in Calgary so this pick becomes next years. Not likely but that is my hope. I wouldn't be against a Calgary collapse but unlikely to happen as they have a deeper team now, good goaltending and Sutter will keep them going. Heineman looks like an explosive skater from the clips I have seen. Perhaps Commandant has some better thoughts on his ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 7 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: I agree. Patches should indeed have gotten a better return than Toffoli. In fact, he got back a potential #1C in Suzuki. It seems fair to me to say that Toffoli should have returned us a solid candidate to become a top-6 W. That is a lesser return. Instead if that, we get a guy most experts are pegging as a bottom-6 W. And we're being told to click our heels together because Toffoli "only" averages 25 goals per year instead of 30 🙄 At this rate, we'll get back a potential #7 defenceman for Hoffman and be told to pop the champagne. Anyway, I hope I'm wrong and Heinman beats the odds to become a legit 2nd-line W. Don't forget, they also got a #1 pick in what is supposed to be a decent draft, of course that is no guarantee as the Habs have mucked up a few of these in the past but it can also be valuable currency for other trades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: A lot of posts on here saying “great, Heineman may become another Lehks.” Well, geez…I know Lehks is a good player…but I was kind of hoping for more than a future bottom-6er and a late 1st in return for 30-goal-scoring Toffoli. 🤷♂️ I think there is more offence in there than Lehks. If you have a regular 40 point guy with some seasons of 50 and excellent defensive play, and a first round pick... plus a late pick... thats not bad. I think you might flip Pitlick for another late pick too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 Toffoli is good, but he isn't Pacioretty. Comparing the two trades, yes... we didn't get a Suzuki level prospect, but Toffoli is not at the level Pacioretty was at either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said: I only looked at one prospect site, didn’t seem someone that will be a top 6. Can always hope, but there were other prospects that I wish we could have pried from the Flames. Middle 6 is a realistic hope, I think -- not expectation since he hasn't even played in the AHL yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 34 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: I think Hoffman will be harder to trade because his contract is not as friendly as Toffoli's and Toffoli has a better reputation in a lot of areas (better 2 way player, very popular teammate). At $4.5M for only two more years, Hoffman's contract is not ridiculous though agree not as friendly. I think they can find a buyer, they could always take another contract in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 11 minutes ago, Commandant said: Toffoli is good, but he isn't Pacioretty. Comparing the two trades, yes... we didn't get a Suzuki level prospect, but Toffoli is not at the level Pacioretty was at either. Is this the "king's ransom" you were calling for yesterday? Not sure how I (?) ever was interpreted as saying it should be a Suzuki level prospect. But it should be a top-6 prospect IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 10 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Is this the "king's ransom" you were calling for yesterday? Not sure how I (?) ever was interpreted as saying it should be a Suzuki level prospect. But it should be a top-6 prospect IMHO. I was thinking something like Pelletier and 2nd, or Coronato and a 3rd rounder.... but obviously this is more about quantity, having two good prospects in Heineman and the 1st rounder, where as I was looking for a better prospect (but lower pick). As for comparing the trade to the Pacioretty trade, that was Habs29, not you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 Toffoli was worth more in the offseason because there would have been more suitors. We are pick hunters I guess? I'm hoping for a proper haul on Petry and Chairot and a a first for Hoffman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted February 15, 2022 Author Share Posted February 15, 2022 32 minutes ago, Commandant said: I think you might flip Pitlick for another late pick too. That would surprise me. He has been brutal this year and just cleared waivers not long ago. Maybe he fares better with the change of scenery and system but his performance this year has been close to Paquette's level. I hope it happens but I wouldn't count on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 5 minutes ago, dlbalr said: That would surprise me. He has been brutal this year and just cleared waivers not long ago. Maybe he fares better with the change of scenery and system but his performance this year has been close to Paquette's level. I hope it happens but I wouldn't count on it. I do like the idea of hoarding Pitlicks, however. Now if we can just get a couple of Shoebottoms, we'll really be cookin'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: I agree. Patches should indeed have gotten a better return than Toffoli. In fact, he got back a potential #1C in Suzuki. It seems fair to me to say that Toffoli should have returned us a solid candidate to become a top-6 W. That is a lesser return. Instead if that, we get a guy most experts are pegging as a bottom-6 W. And we're being told to click our heels together because Toffoli "only" averages 25 goals per year instead of 30 🙄 At this rate, we'll get back a potential #7 defenceman for Hoffman and be told to pop the champagne. Anyway, I hope I'm wrong and Heinman beats the odds to become a legit 2nd-line W. i am not a fan of the trade, but I will not start posting o the “Fire Hugh-Gort” thread just yet, let’s be patient before blowing a fuse on how underwhelming this trade seems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 13 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said: Toffoli was worth more in the offseason because there would have been more suitors. We are pick hunters I guess? I'm hoping for a proper haul on Petry and Chairot and a a first for Hoffman Hard to say if there would have been more suitors in the summer. Most teams can fit in Toffoli's contract this year, adjustments can be made in the summer. I don't think there is any way they get a 1st for Hoffman. I don't think he will be in big demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 3 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said: i am not a fan of the trade, but I will not start posting o the “Fire Hugh-Gort” thread just yet, let’s be patient before blowing a fuse on how underwhelming this trade seems I don't think this trade is underwhelming at all. I am fine with it and I don't see anyone blowing a fuse. What did you expect for Toffoli? Hughes/Gorton are thinking 3-5 years down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 Yeah I can't see a first for Hoffman either. In fact, I don't think Chiarot is going to get a first. And I think Petry won't be moved until summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 7 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: I don't think this trade is underwhelming at all. I am fine with it and I don't see anyone blowing a fuse. What did you expect for Toffoli? Hughes/Gorton are thinking 3-5 years down the road. On the prospect side, I would have expected a RD drafted in the second round with realistic NHL potential instead of a bottom-6 winger. The late 1st round pick was also expected as well as the NHL contract coming back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 4 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said: On the prospect side, I would have expected a RD drafted in the second round with realistic NHL potential instead of a bottom-6 winger. The late 1st round pick was also expected as well as the NHL contract coming back. I guess instead of a RD drafted in the 2nd round they got a winger drafted in the 2nd round, too early to tell where he will fit in, maybe bottom 6 but the guy can sure skate and he plays hard. Like a lot of trades we won't really know for a few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 26 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said: i am not a fan of the trade, but I will not start posting o the “Fire Hugh-Gort” thread just yet, let’s be patient before blowing a fuse on how underwhelming this trade seems Yep, not blowing a fuse, just underwhelmed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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