Trade Toffoli traded to Calgary

[Neech]

10 hours ago, Commandant said:

Again pacioretty gave us the blue chipper plus 2nd rounder.

 

Did Toffoli get less than that? Yes.

 

Is Toffoli as good as Pacioretty? No.

 

So expecting the same return seems to be a bit of a pipe dream.

 

 

 

Kind of misrepresenting the Patches deal as we also received Tatar, a guy who had just gone for multiple 1sts. Sure he was benched in the playoffs but he was also a serviceable second liner. So maybe vegas was in the business of overpaying for wingers and Calgary wasn't so foolhardy; we still had plenty of time to try to get a better deal. Maybe Hughes thought Heineman was the best prospect that he could swing for Toffoli, but it's still a little underwhelming to trade a top-6 performer for a third line prospect and a mid value pick. 

 

Maybe it was important for Hughes to not receive salary back in this trade, because to unload our other big contracts we'll probably need to take back bad deals. I hope we can target more A-level assets in the process.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 minute ago, Neech said:

So maybe vegas was in the business of overpaying for wingers and Calgary wasn't so foolhardy; 

 

That is true. Vegas acquired so many draft picks that they started throwing them around like candy.  They traded a 1st, 2nd and 3rd for Tatar, a vast overpayment for a guy who is good during the regular season but that wasn't what they got him for. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Here is another, heretical thought…Marc Bergevin, except for the idiotic Sergachev deal, was actually very good at the trade table. Habs fans have been spoiled on that front, and Hugh-Gort are unlikely to be as excellent as he was at this aspect of the managerial game. 

 

Don’t get me wrong…he was atrocious at drafting and development. But trading definitely was an area of strength.

[alfredoh2009]

41 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Here is another, heretical thought…Marc Bergevin, except for the idiotic Sergachev deal, was actually very good at the trade table. Habs fans have been spoiled on that front, and Hugh-Gort are unlikely to be as excellent as he was at this aspect of the managerial game. 

 

Don’t get me wrong…he was atrocious at drafting and development. But trading definitely was an area of strength.

I believe that about MB

 

 Checking Gorton’s track  record in NYR did not impress me much . That is why I wanted Madden jr. More than Hughes

 

Mad-Gort all the way 

[GHT120]

9 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

... That is why I wanted Madden jr. More than Hughes ...

He was one of my favourites as well ... but sadly he was never available ... it will be interesting to see if he stays in Anaheim despite not getting the GM's position ... if he does, I then have doubts he would ever have been the right guy for the Habs.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

57 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Here is another, heretical thought…Marc Bergevin, except for the idiotic Sergachev deal, was actually very good at the trade table. Habs fans have been spoiled on that front, and Hugh-Gort are unlikely to be as excellent as he was at this aspect of the managerial game. 

 

Don’t get me wrong…he was atrocious at drafting and development. But trading definitely was an area of strength.

 

It's not a heretical thought, MB was good at trading except for the deal you mentioned.  Drafting and developing needed some work obviously or we wouldn't be sitting at 8 wins in February and having to look at KK's avatar. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

3 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

He was one of my favourites as well ... but sadly he was never available ... it will be interesting to see if he stays in Anaheim despite not getting the GM's position ... if he does, I then have doubts he would ever have been the right guy for the Habs.

 

I would agree, it's starting to sound like Madden is great behind the scenes at player evaluation etc. but obviously Anaheim didn't think he was the right fit for the GM role.  He may be lacking in other areas.  Hughes comes across as more confident. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

20 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 Checking Gorton’s track  record in NYR did not impress me much . That is why I wanted Madden jr. More than Hughes

 

Mad-Gort all the way 

 

The Rangers seem to be in pretty good shape right now.  What do you need to be impressed? 

[alfredoh2009]

27 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

The Rangers seem to be in pretty good shape right now.  What do you need to be impressed? 

a Stanley cup

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

7 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

a Stanley cup

 

I guess you must be really impressed with Ken Holland.  Even Irving Grundman won a Stanley Cup as GM. 

[alfredoh2009]

Holland, Dubas, ... quite a few with elite players in their roster that choke in the playoffs

 

if the NYRs win a cup and the roster is what Gorton left... then I will be impressed.

Seems like the NYR are not close to contending yet... but they are entertaining to watch !!! 🙄

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

5 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Holland, Dubas, ... quite a few with elite players in their roster that choke in the playoffs

 

if the NYRs win a cup and the roster is what Gorton left... then I will be impressed.

Seems like the NYR are not close to contending yet... but they are entertaining to watch !!! 🙄

 

The Rangers have only lost 13 games this year so they are closer than you think.  I think many Hab fans would be good with entertaining right now. 

[alfredoh2009]

45 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

The Rangers have only lost 13 games this year so they are closer than you think.  I think many Hab fans would be good with entertaining right now. 

Wake me up for the parade 🥱 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

39 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Wake me up for the parade 🥱 

 

I think you are wide awake or you wouldn't spend so much time here. We all want the same thing and I think they are finally doing the right things to get us there, a lot of work to do and it won't happen overnight but I think we are heading in the right direction although based on this year that might seem like a crazy statement. 

[Commandant]

3 hours ago, Neech said:

 

Kind of misrepresenting the Patches deal as we also received Tatar, a guy who had just gone for multiple 1sts. Sure he was benched in the playoffs but he was also a serviceable second liner. So maybe vegas was in the business of overpaying for wingers and Calgary wasn't so foolhardy; we still had plenty of time to try to get a better deal. Maybe Hughes thought Heineman was the best prospect that he could swing for Toffoli, but it's still a little underwhelming to trade a top-6 performer for a third line prospect and a mid value pick. 

 

Maybe it was important for Hughes to not receive salary back in this trade, because to unload our other big contracts we'll probably need to take back bad deals. I hope we can target more A-level assets in the process.

 

Tatar's value greatly diminished over that run.  He was basically a useful NHLer who was a throw-in/cap dump at the time of the trade. 

 

Obviously Tatar became more than that during his time in Montreal, but that isn't how he was seen on trade day. 

 

True Tatar is better than Pitlick and a 5th rounder, but not by that much, and again Patch was better than Toffoli. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

33 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Tatar's value greatly diminished over that run.  He was basically a useful NHLer who was a throw-in/cap dump at the time of the trade. 

 

Obviously Tatar became more than that during his time in Montreal, but that isn't how he was seen on trade day. 

 

True Tatar is better than Pitlick and a 5th rounder, but not by that much, and again Patch was better than Toffoli. 

 

He was definitely a cap dump by Vegas at the time of the trade.  He was a very useful NHLer during the regular season. His stats are actually not that far behind Toffoli's (approx  22.5 goals/82 games).  However he never did much in the playoffs and wasn't the all around player Toffoli was. 

 

 

[johnnyhasbeen]

On 2/16/2022 at 3:45 PM, Commandant said:

 

Yes, you get more potential picks. 

 

That said, there are certain teams like Colorado or Vegas or others, where we can pretty much say a 2023 first round pick is not going to be bottom 10 in the NHL, so will not have a chance to be #1. 

 

For both Bedard and Michov they are so good, that they are unlikely to be traded. 

The last time a 1st overall was traded was 2003.

The ducks is the 2023 pick I would target, they could easily miss next year and when the balls drop you never know. Most likely to fall in the standing imo. 

[Commandant]

16 minutes ago, johnnyhasbeen said:

The ducks is the 2023 pick I would target, they could easily miss next year and when the balls drop you never know. Most likely to fall in the standing imo. 

 

The Ducks know that too.  So the cost to get an unprotected pick from that will be very high. 

 

Pat Verbeek and the Ducks are well aware that they have sucked the last few years and are overperforming a bit thanks to John Gibson right now, and Conor Bedard is available next year.  They will ask for the moon in order to have an "unprotected" pick.

[Sir_Boagalott]

12 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Here is another, heretical thought…Marc Bergevin, except for the idiotic Sergachev deal, was actually very good at the trade table. Habs fans have been spoiled on that front, and Hugh-Gort are unlikely to be as excellent as he was at this aspect of the managerial game. 

 

Don’t get me wrong…he was atrocious at drafting and development. But trading definitely was an area of strength.

 

I definitely agree.

 

I've always said that whoever does the trade deadline deals under MB did a wicked job.  Sure, they never got elite players, but they didn't pay much for the guys they picked up and they almost always made a decent impact and were worth more than they gave up for them.

 

 

I honestly don't like this trade at all, at least not the timing of it.  They just dumped Dom, so I would have waited until closer to the trade deadline to move anybody, with the exception of Chiarot.  i.e. give Marty more time to see how the players respond.  ex:  Toffoli might have got  3-5 goals before the trade deadline, and if that had happened, would you still trade him?  I certainly wouldn't.  

 

Toffoli is more than decent defensively and he scores, and in the playoffs.  I don't really see the point in moving him unless he was a problem and/or didnt turn his game around with the coaching change.  Now, we will never know.  

 

 

 

 

 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

10 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

I definitely agree.

 

I've always said that whoever does the trade deadline deals under MB did a wicked job.  Sure, they never got elite players, but they didn't pay much for the guys they picked up and they almost always made a decent impact and were worth more than they gave up for them.

 

 

I honestly don't like this trade at all, at least not the timing of it.  They just dumped Dom, so I would have waited until closer to the trade deadline to move anybody, with the exception of Chiarot.  i.e. give Marty more time to see how the players respond.  ex:  Toffoli might have got  3-5 goals before the trade deadline, and if that had happened, would you still trade him?  I certainly wouldn't.  

 

Toffoli is more than decent defensively and he scores, and in the playoffs.  I don't really see the point in moving him unless he was a problem and/or didnt turn his game around with the coaching change.  Now, we will never know.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like you, I thought the timing a little bit eyebrow-raising. Why the rush to trade Toffoli? And the only defensible explanation is that Hugh-Gort got back what they regarded as the best possible return for their asset. So everything depends on Heineman. If he emerges as a legit 2nd line player, or even as a highly versatile W who moves up and down the roster and is used in lots of situations and brings 20 goals, 40-50 points - kind of like Chris Higgins before he regressed - then that, plus the pick, seems totally fine by me.

 

If he turns out to be a straightforward bottom-6 guy, however, then Hugh-Gort made the wrong call, and they should have waited longer, creating a bidding war for Toffoli. Some fans have tried to minimize Toffoli (“he’s not really a 30 goal scorer,” etc.) but if you follow the media coverage you know that the Flames are being widely praised for having scored a coup in adding him to their roster. His trade value was significant.

 

There are reasons to doubt this deal, then, but there are also reasons for optimism about the prospect we got back. We won’t be able to *truly* assess the deal for 3-5 years.

[alfredoh2009]

As much as I liked Patches, Toffoli is a better return: he is not injured as much, he is not a periphery player, he plays better defensively and with the right line mates can score as

much

 

let’s hope Heineman becomes the winger to Suzuki and Caufield 

[GHT120]

10 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

... Toffoli might have got  3-5 goals before the trade deadline, and if that had happened, would you still trade him?  I certainly wouldn't ...  

In the hypothetical ... short-term success should never override long-term plans ... once, for whatever reason, H&G decided Toffoli was tradable a run of success for a few games is no reason to change their mind.

[tomh009]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Like you, I thought the timing a little bit eyebrow-raising. Why the rush to trade Toffoli? And the only defensible explanation is that Hugh-Gort got back what they regarded as the best possible return for their asset.

So, I don't think it's a rush as such. It seems that Hughes' approach is to determine what he wants to get back in a deal, and then make the deal if someone meets that asking price. This is in contrast to waiting until the last moment before the deadline for the highest offer -- which might be great, or might not come at all.

[Sir_Boagalott]

8 hours ago, GHT120 said:

In the hypothetical ... short-term success should never override long-term plans ... once, for whatever reason, H&G decided Toffoli was tradable a run of success for a few games is no reason to change their mind.

 

In your context, you are correct, but it should override plans unless their long term plan is to get rid of players with cheap positive value contracts who show up in the playoffs and play good defensively and score.  Those are not the type of players any team should get rid of at any cost, unless they are UFA's the next season and a team cant afford to resign them.  However, that description doesnt describe Toffoli though.   

 

This years suckfest could be 100% on Dom, who is gone now, so why get rid of everybody and start over when they've already gotten rid of the problem?  If Dom was the entire problem, it is ludicrous to dump all the good players and suck for another 3-5 years and for no other reason than Dom sucked.  That makes absolutely no sense at all. 

[Commandant]

I don't think Dom is the entire problem. There are lots of flaws on this team and a rebuild is needed. 

 

That said, Dom was part of the problem and he was not part of the solution as the youngsters weren't developing under him, so a move had to be made.