Trade Habs acquire Kirby Dach

[dlbalr]

7 hours ago, Commandant said:

He has 4 years of RFA left.

 

It's actually 5 RFA years left.  Because of all the injuries in 2020-21, he didn't play enough games to accrue a season of service time towards UFA eligibility.  As a result, he's not eligible for UFA status until after the 2026-27 campaign. 

[alfredoh2009]

2 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

It's actually 5 RFA years left.  Because of all the injuries in 2020-21, he didn't play enough games to accrue a season of service time towards UFA eligibility.  As a result, he's not eligible for UFA status until after the 2026-27 campaign. 

 

WOW, that is good to know. five years of team control is worth a lot.

 

I like this trade a lot more than at first. I have to write to the forum that Hugh-Gort did well on this trade getting a player that is already better than Poehling and that may become better than Dvorak.

Some may say those are low bars for that Dach may become, but those two other players were Habs regulars NHLers which is an improvement win for the Habs if that happens.

 

For me, it seems like Dach may become as good for the Habs as Danault if not better

Edited July 19, 2022 by alfredoh2009
clarified

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

8 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

For me, it seems like Dach may become as good for the Habs as Danault if not better

 

He will be a different type of center than Danault,  most likely not as good defensively but with a higher ceiling offensively, that is the hope anyway.  If he can become as valuable to the Habs as Danault was than it is a good trade. 

[alfredoh2009]

59 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

He will be a different type of center than Danault,  most likely not as good defensively but with a higher ceiling offensively, that is the hope anyway.  If he can become as valuable to the Habs as Danault was than it is a good trade. 

 

that's a better way to put it "as valuable as Danault"

[Neech]

If Dach is as good as Danault this is a home run. I'm just hoping we're not in for a repeat of KK viewing experience, desperately waiting for any elite skills to manifest. 

[BCHabnut]

I'm pretty skeptical about this guy. Time will tell, bit I'm definitely not too excited. 

[alfredoh2009]

I have tempered expectations. I do not expect elite skills from Dach, maybe a few games here and there like Poehling's first game or KK/Danault on occasion.

 

From what I read when the trade took place, he is reportedly a good defensive forward already; which is why I mention him as potentially a Danault-lite or Danault-like

 

If what the fans and this forum says about Hugh-Gort & Marty is true, they have scouted Dach sufficiently to be confident in his potential. Either you drink the kool-aid on Dach or don't applaud all other Hygh-Gort's moves except this one.

 

I didn't like loosing Romanov for Dach; but with five (5) years of RFA eligibility on a 3rd pick overall center with size, it would be dishonest from me not to have hope that this was a good trade for the Habs.

 

I am not excited, but I am not as upset as I was.

[Commandant]

7 hours ago, Meller93 said:

So Habs would be better served with a 3 year show me contract.

 

on the other hand, could a guy like Dach take a discount if you signed him for 4 years taking him to UFA? I don’t see it being likely but it’s an interesting thought 

 

No, I wouldn't do that. 

 

Cause then you run into the Tkachuk situation, where the player can take a one-year arb award and walk as a free agent afterwards. 

I'd like two years, cause that gives you enough time to evaluate and then decide if you want him long term or not. 

[dlbalr]

5 hours ago, Commandant said:

No, I wouldn't do that. 

 

Cause then you run into the Tkachuk situation, where the player can take a one-year arb award and walk as a free agent afterwards. 

I'd like two years, cause that gives you enough time to evaluate and then decide if you want him long term or not. 

 

They can go three years with Dach and still have two RFA years left since he has only accrued two seasons towards UFA eligibility so far.  If I had to guess, that's probably their preference if they can free up the cap space to do that.

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, dlbalr said:

 

They can go three years with Dach and still have two RFA years left since he has only accrued two seasons towards UFA eligibility so far.  If I had to guess, that's probably their preference if they can free up the cap space to do that.

 

Yes now that i know he has 5 years, thats fine.

 

I just wouldnt walk him up to his last year.

[Meller93]

14 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Yes now that i know he has 5 years, thats fine.

 

I just wouldnt walk him up to his last year.

Is your train of thought that 2 years is enough assessment time, and then the next long-term contract could come in a little cheaper (and expire when he’s still younger)

[Commandant]

2 hours ago, Meller93 said:

Is your train of thought that 2 years is enough assessment time, and then the next long-term contract could come in a little cheaper (and expire when he’s still younger)

 

Yes, after two years, he'll be five years into his career and you can make the assessment. 

 

Three is fine since he has 5 years of RFA.

 

I don't like the Matthew Tkachuk scenario, where you put the player in position to go to arbitration, take a one year deal and then be UFA. 

[TurdBurglar]

19 hours ago, Commandant said:

I don't like the Matthew Tkachuk scenario, where you put the player in position to go to arbitration, take a one year deal and then be UFA. 

In a situation in Calgary with Tkachuk, it’s a little easier to deal with.  There’s no mystery hanging over Calgary’s head whether Tkachuk will stay or not.  He’s leaving, so push the decision to the trade deadline and take the best offer, unless one comes in they are happy with.  
 

There are deadlines that affect the trade for the potential.  Team have until his hearing in just over a week to trade and negotiate a contract they are happy with, to avoid him potentially hitting UFA next year.  When he hits arbitration he will be signed to whatever money decides on, Calgary has the cap space.  Once it’s signed, teams have almost the entire year to negotiate a new contract with him prior to a trade, but it starts a year later.  This is why I fully expect Tkachuk to start the season with Calagary, gives the best return and best case scenario for Tkachuk if he wants an 8-year deal.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

49 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said:

In a situation in Calgary with Tkachuk, it’s a little easier to deal with.  There’s no mystery hanging over Calgary’s head whether Tkachuk will stay or not.  He’s leaving, so push the decision to the trade deadline and take the best offer, unless one comes in they are happy with.  
 

There are deadlines that affect the trade for the potential.  Team have until his hearing in just over a week to trade and negotiate a contract they are happy with, to avoid him potentially hitting UFA next year.  When he hits arbitration he will be signed to whatever money decides on, Calgary has the cap space.  Once it’s signed, teams have almost the entire year to negotiate a new contract with him prior to a trade, but it starts a year later.  This is why I fully expect Tkachuk to start the season with Calagary, gives the best return and best case scenario for Tkachuk if he wants an 8-year deal.

 

I would be very very surprised if he starts the season with Calgary. There is a whole lot of risk waiting until the trade deadline to trade him, Calgary will have even less  leverage then. I expect a trade within the next couple weeks. 

[Commandant]

Yup, I fully expect Tkachuk traded before the season. 

 

And while they will get a decent package for him as a one year rental, its not near what it would be with two years of RFA left. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

12 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Yup, I fully expect Tkachuk traded before the season. 

 

And while they will get a decent package for him as a one year rental, its not near what it would be with two years of RFA left. 

 

I thought Tkachuk is a free agent after next season as he will have 7 seasons in or am I missing something here? I believe they also have to play 40 games for a season to count. 

 

"How do NHL players become free agents?

An NHL player becomes an unrestricted free agent when his contract runs out and he has either accrued seven seasons or is 27 years of age or older."

[Commandant]

1 minute ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I thought Tkachuk is a free agent after next season as he will have 7 seasons in or am I missing something here? I believe they also have to play 40 games for a season to count. 

 

"How do NHL players become free agents?

An NHL player becomes an unrestricted free agent when his contract runs out and he has either accrued seven seasons or is 27 years of age or older."

 

Yes, he is UFA in the summer of 2023. 

 

 

[hab29RETIRED]

4 hours ago, TurdBurglar said:

In a situation in Calgary with Tkachuk, it’s a little easier to deal with.  There’s no mystery hanging over Calgary’s head whether Tkachuk will stay or not.  He’s leaving, so push the decision to the trade deadline and take the best offer, unless one comes in they are happy with.  
 

There are deadlines that affect the trade for the potential.  Team have until his hearing in just over a week to trade and negotiate a contract they are happy with, to avoid him potentially hitting UFA next year.  When he hits arbitration he will be signed to whatever money decides on, Calgary has the cap space.  Once it’s signed, teams have almost the entire year to negotiate a new contract with him prior to a trade, but it starts a year later.  This is why I fully expect Tkachuk to start the season with Calagary, gives the best return and best case scenario for Tkachuk if he wants an 8-year deal.

No way he starts the season in Calgary. He can’t sign a new contract until after Jan 1, if it goes to arbitration. Much easier decision for him to just go to free agency, which means Calgary is not going to get as much later.

 

he will be 99.9999999% be traded before the arbitration hearing. Flames are probably kicking themselves for not going for NJD offer for Tkachuck that included the 2nd overall pick (not sure who else was included), while I’m regretting that we didn’t get Calgary’s first rounder for 2023 instead of 2022.

 

Last few flames GM’s have really dropped the ball. Gaudreau and Tkachuck gone this summer. Neal signing was bad. They almost lost their 1st overall and wouldn’t have been able to have O’Reilly, if the Avs didn’t match their offer sheet 7-8 years ago. 

[hab29RETIRED]

2 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I thought Tkachuk is a free agent after next season as he will have 7 seasons in or am I missing something here? I believe they also have to play 40 games for a season to count. 

 

"How do NHL players become free agents?

An NHL player becomes an unrestricted free agent when his contract runs out and he has either accrued seven seasons or is 27 years of age or older."

Yeah. He only has one RFA year left.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

44 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

No way he starts the season in Calgary. He can’t sign a new contract until after Jan 1, if it goes to arbitration. Much easier decision for him to just go to free agency, which means Calgary is not going to get as much later.

 

he will be 99.9999999% be traded before the arbitration hearing. Flames are probably kicking themselves for not going for NJD offer for Tkachuck that included the 2nd overall pick (not sure who else was included), while I’m regretting that we didn’t get Calgary’s first rounder for 2023 instead of 2022.

 

Last few flames GM’s have really dropped the ball. Gaudreau and Tkachuck gone this summer. Neal signing was bad. They almost lost their 1st overall and wouldn’t have been able to have O’Reilly, if the Avs didn’t match their offer sheet 7-8 years ago. 

 

Agree, the 1st rounder for 2023 will likely be a much higher pick in a better draft. 

 

They were in a tough spot with Gaudreau, if they had traded him last year they would have been roasted by everyone.  Not sure how much effort they put into signing Gaudreau earlier, perhaps he always wanted free agency. Trevling was in a tough spot with Gaudreau. 

[hab29RETIRED]

42 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Agree, the 1st rounder for 2023 will likely be a much higher pick in a better draft. 

 

They were in a tough spot with Gaudreau, if they had traded him last year they would have been roasted by everyone.  Not sure how much effort they put into signing Gaudreau earlier, perhaps he always wanted free agency. Trevling was in a tough spot with Gaudreau. 

Agree it’s a tough spot, but it seems like a losers proposition when you don’t get a deal done before the season starts and then go along with the players decision to not negotiate during the season. I think that’s an okay strategy with an older player closing to the end of their productive years, but you can’t take that approach with a core guy in his prime. As soon as Gaudreau said he wasn’t going to negotiate in season, Treliving should have been working the phone.

[GHT120]

4 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

 ... As soon as Gaudreau said he wasn’t going to negotiate in season, Treliving should have been working the phone.

 

 

Calgary was a 111 point team ... their best season since 1988/89, 2nd best ever ... trading Gaudreau was almost certainly never an option ... Treliving was (IMO) stuck, even if he knew JG wasn't coming back. 

[hab29RETIRED]

1 minute ago, GHT120 said:

 

Calgary was a 111 point team ... their best season since 1988/89, 2nd best ever ... trading Gaudreau was almost certainly never an option ... Treliving was (IMO) stuck, even if he knew JG wasn't coming back. 

Sure, but they also missed the playoffs the year before. It’s not like they came into the year expecting to be a cup favourite.

It seems ridiculous to go into the year agreeing not to negotiate with your star player in his prime during the year.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I agree that this was a really, really tough call for the GM. We should remember that, going into the playoffs, the Flames were widely regarded as very serious Cup contenders. No WAY in hell could he have shipped out Gaudreau under those conditions, unless he got a comparable player back (and in which case, why would the other team make that deal?).

 

I guess, in retrospect, the time to trade him would have been last summer. But Gaudreau was coming off two crummy seasons in a row; if he decided to gamble on himself in his contract year, that wouldn't necessarily have been taken as a huge red flag to the GM that he had no intention of re-signing with the organization. Also, if they had traded him when his value was at its lowest, and then watched Gaudreau rip it up with a 115-point season elsewhere, fans would still be baying for his blood.

 

And how can you negotiate if the other side prefers not to? Lots of players dislike negotiating in-season, it takes two to tango.

 

And let's face it - how often do players throw away $16 million in order to sign with any team? Unless Treliving had crystal-clear indicators that Gaudreau was absolutely determined to leave Calgary, I think he was in a no-win situation. He probably believed - quite reasonably - that if he made a big enough offer, the player would stay.

 

Now he's losing Tkachuk too. But since he couldn't reasonably anticipate losing Gaudreau, he couldn't anticipate losing Tkachuk. The two are related; e.g., if he'd dealt Tkachuk for the #2 overall pick, then he knew he'd be losing any chance with Gaudreau, etc. 

 

Just a nightmare. 

 

 

 

 

 

[hab29RETIRED]

28 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I agree that this was a really, really tough call for the GM. We should remember that, going into the playoffs, the Flames were widely regarded as very serious Cup contenders. No WAY in hell could he have shipped out Gaudreau under those conditions, unless he got a comparable player back (and in which case, why would the other team make that deal?).

 

I guess, in retrospect, the time to trade him would have been last summer. But Gaudreau was coming off two crummy seasons in a row; if he decided to gamble on himself in his contract year, that wouldn't necessarily have been taken as a huge red flag to the GM that he had no intention of re-signing with the organization. Also, if they had traded him when his value was at its lowest, and then watched Gaudreau rip it up with a 115-point season elsewhere, fans would still be baying for his blood.

 

And how can you negotiate if the other side prefers not to? Lots of players dislike negotiating in-season, it takes two to tango.

 

And let's face it - how often do players throw away $16 million in order to sign with any team? Unless Treliving had crystal-clear indicators that Gaudreau was absolutely determined to leave Calgary, I think he was in a no-win situation. He probably believed - quite reasonably - that if he made a big enough offer, the player would stay.

 

Now he's losing Tkachuk too. But since he couldn't reasonably anticipate losing Gaudreau, he couldn't anticipate losing Tkachuk. The two are related; e.g., if he'd dealt Tkachuk for the #2 overall pick, then he knew he'd be losing any chance with Gaudreau, etc. 

 

Just a nightmare. 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, I agree, that once the season started you couldn’t have moved Gaudreau, and it would have been suicide to move him at the deadline, especially with Vegas pretty much out of the playoff picture, leaving only the Avs as the only other legit (more legit), contender.
 

But I do think before the season started, once Gaudreau said he wasn’t going to negotiate during the year, they needed to either step up at that time to get the deal done, or move him.  
 

this isn’t a Malkin or Letang situation where you have guys that won 3 cups together, have been with the same organization for over 15 years and are in the final few years of their careers. You lose them, may be turn out to be a benefit, because they probably gave them two extra years on their contract than they will be worth.

 

Gaudreau is in his prime, he is their best player, no way can you risk losing a guy like that for nothing- especially coming out of a year when you missed the playoffs altogether.