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Tank Hard for Bedard (as heard on TSN690)


alfredoh2009

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2 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Well, they shouldn’t dead last again - Chicago and Phoenix will be much worse. Its going to depend on whether the D is as bad as I think it is, or if some kids really step up and help mitigate the other big weakness in goal.

 

this definitely is the year to finish last, ot at least bottom two.

OR ... have some serious lottery luck.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I will maintain that the HuGo are not outright tanking * ... however, it is POSSIBLE that is because they simply can't find any team willing to take the Habs ideal/likely "dumpee" veterans (i.e., Gallagher, Armia and Hoffman) and the pending UFAs (i.e., Drouin, Dadonov, Monahan and Byron) need to "rehabilitate" their market value on-ice to optimize return ... but neither will HuGo make moves solely to win games this season.

 

* -  Before the 2016 draft the Leafs moved out five of the "better" 2014-15 veterans ... Phil Kessel and Daniel Winnik, who were Top 6 TOI forwards; Dion Phaneuf and Roman Polak who were 2 of the top 3 TOI defencemen; and one of their "1A/1B" goalies in James Reimer.

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They could finish near the bottom because they are just not good enough but they are not outright tanking, what Chicago is doing is tanking. I think tanking is the most misused term on this board but I am just repeating myself here. 

 

 

"Tanking in sports refers to the practice of intentionally fielding non-competitive teams to take advantage of league rules that benefit losing teams."

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1 hour ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

We certainly aren’t tanking. 
 

If we finish last again it’s because we genuinely stink or even that our D stinks soooo much. 
 

Im thinking we finish 20th OA or so

 

There aren't many teams in the east worse than us. Philly maybe? I say we finish in the bottom 6 overall.

 

I'd say we are tanking because we're prioritizing development over winning now. We're not doing it as overtly as Chicago this year or Buffalo a few years ago, but we're still aiming for a top pick.

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9 minutes ago, Neech said:

 

There aren't many teams in the east worse than us. Philly maybe? I say we finish in the bottom 6 overall.

 

I'd say we are tanking because we're prioritizing development over winning now. We're not doing it as overtly as Chicago this year or Buffalo a few years ago, but we're still aiming for a top pick.

 

We are rebuilding because we simply aren't good enough to win now!!  Do you really think they can compete with Colorado, Tampa, Toronto etc etc. if they prioritize winning now? 

 

I agree with your first line. 

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

I will maintain that the HuGo are not outright tanking * ... however, it is POSSIBLE that is because they simply can't find any team willing to take the Habs ideal/likely "dumpee" veterans (i.e., Gallagher, Armia and Hoffman) and the pending UFAs (i.e., Drouin, Dadonov, Monahan and Byron) need to "rehabilitate" their market value on-ice to optimize return ... but neither will HuGo make moves solely to win games this season.

 

* -  Before the 2016 draft the Leafs moved out five of the "better" 2014-15 veterans ... Phil Kessel and Daniel Winnik, who were Top 6 TOI forwards; Dion Phaneuf and Roman Polak who were 2 of the top 3 TOI defencemen; and one of their "1A/1B" goalies in James Reimer.

 

Let's see 🤔 before the 2022-2023 season the Habs traded and didn't replace:

* Petry (top-4 RD)

* Chiarot (top-4 LD)

 

Let's see 🤔 before the 2022-2023 season the Habs have not addressed with a suitable replacement:

* Edmundson recurrent back injuries (top-4 LD)

* Price career ending injuries

* Dumped Weber career ending LTIR (top-4 LD)

 

Let's see 🤔 before the 2022-2023 season the Habs have traded for injury-prone forwards:

* Dach

* Monahan

 

and the Habs are expected to trade pending UFAs before the trade deadline  🤔 :

* Drouin

* Dadonov

* Hoffman

* Allen

 

If the Habs do not trade for suitable top-4 Ds, or at least one top-4 RD and they are not successful in getting production out of the reclamation projects... it is a tank job

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17 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

We are rebuilding because we simply aren't good enough to win now!!  Do you really think they can compete with Colorado, Tampa, Toronto etc etc. if they prioritize winning now? 

 

 

I'm not sure who you're disagreeing with here but it's not me. I'm all for a slow and steady rebuild. We're in the early stages yet - the time to hit on some top picks. So I'm in the camp that believes we're tanking.

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14 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

Let's see 🤔 before the 2022-2023 season the Habs have not addressed with a suitable replacement:

* Edmundson recurrent back injuries (top-4 LD)

* Price career ending injuries

* Dumped Weber career ending LTIR (top-4 LD)

 

I guess if not being able to replace all stars that go down with career ending injuries with equal replacements immediately is your definition of a tank then we will just have to agree to disagree. I use the wikipedia definition, you obviously have your own. 

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44 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Let's see 🤔 before the 2022-2023 season the Habs traded and didn't replace:

* Petry (top-4 RD)

* Chiarot (top-4 LD)

 

Let's see 🤔 before the 2022-2023 season the Habs have not addressed with a suitable replacement:

* Edmundson recurrent back injuries (top-4 LD)

* Price career ending injuries

* Dumped Weber career ending LTIR (top-4 LD)

I'd say Matheson qualifies as a top-four LD. And they have added Barron and Harris to what we had a year ago.

 

In addition, Edmundson's current injury does not appear to e a recurrence of last season's back injury.

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19 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

I'd say Matheson qualifies as a top-four LD. And they have added Barron and Harris to what we had a year ago.

 

In addition, Edmundson's current injury does not appear to e a recurrence of last season's back injury.

 

I think it was Dan Robertson who was mentioning this morning it was the back injury. Or I read it somewhere else. It has also been reported as lower-body, so you areprobably right.

 

You are also right about Matheson, who was becoming a top-4 in Pittsburgh but that may suffer the same fate as Savard in the context of the Habs: poor goaltending + inconsistent FWD backchecking leading to Ds being exposed.

 

I am looking forward watching the next few pre-season games to educate my opinion

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2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

I think it was Dan Robertson who was mentioning this morning it was the back injury. Or I read it somewhere else. It has also been reported as lower-body, so you areprobably right.

 

You are also right about Matheson, who was becoming a top-4 in Pittsburgh but that may suffer the same fate as Savard in the context of the Habs: poor goaltending + inconsistent FWD backchecking leading to Ds being exposed.

 

I am looking forward watching the next few pre-season games to educate my opinion

cross posting: Edmundson's is a back injury

 

 

 

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Back injury for an X-large fella, could be looking at another time consuming slow rehab. 

Too bad as 'seems' big guys take bit more time to get up to game speed at start of seasons, even when healthy.

 

 

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On 9/23/2022 at 4:25 AM, DON said:

Back injury for an X-large fella, could be looking at another time consuming slow rehab. 

Too bad as 'seems' big guys take bit more time to get up to game speed at start of seasons, even when healthy.

 

 

 

Looks like we’ll see very quickly whether the D is in fact deep enough to support the proper development of young defencemen (as opposed to just throwing them out there when they’re overmatched, because we have no one else). This is too bad, I was looking forward to seeing Edmundson back.

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8 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Looks like we’ll see very quickly whether the D is in fact deep enough to support the proper development of young defencemen (as opposed to just throwing them out there when they’re overmatched, because we have no one else). This is too bad, I was looking forward to seeing Edmundson back.

 

I think even if the young defensemen are struggling out there, we now have the proper coaching and developmental system in place that it won't be career-threatening to them. They'll be able to mess up and grow from it, whereas under previous regimes they'd be kicked to the curb.

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1 hour ago, Neech said:

 

I think even if the young defensemen are struggling out there, we now have the proper coaching and developmental system in place that it won't be career-threatening to them. They'll be able to mess up and grow from it, whereas under previous regimes they'd be kicked to the curb.

 

Good point, and maybe it’s so…but I still worry about the effects of being dominated night after night. We’ll find out soon enough.

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On 9/22/2022 at 3:44 PM, Neech said:

 

I'm not sure who you're disagreeing with here but it's not me. I'm all for a slow and steady rebuild. We're in the early stages yet - the time to hit on some top picks. So I'm in the camp that believes we're tanking.

I think he was disagreeing with the point that we are tanking, therefore you two aren’t actually on the same page.

 

I don’t have to beat the topic to death in  that I don’t support tanking but I also don’t fully understand your final point.

 

You are in the “camp that believes we are tanking”. According to who? Do you believe management is in the process of tanking? 
 

I already know the coaches and players are not in “tank mode”, and others have already thrown out arguments to show that management are not making moves to officially tank. 
 

I am unsure how early Hughes was aware of the Carey Price ordeal, but with a number 1 goalie, our team can actually battle out there. Although our defensive corps is putrid, the Edmundson injury was also unforeseen and I do believe a lack of solid goaltending will be our achilles heel until that changes.

 

It simply seems to be, as others have stated that the Habs simply don’t have a top tier team, rather than outright tanking.
 

Now if what the comment was supposed to mean, is that we should be tanking, then it is simply a matter of personal opinion, just as much as mine is (meaning I am not necessarily correct) but sometimes us armchair GMs just aren’t right and the team can either 1) surprise us and end up to be an entertaining and successful team or 2) underperform and play even worse than anticipated.

 

I feel as though these tanking, rebuild, retool, we don’t have a chance, the team is 3 years away, etc. perspective can be SERIOUSLY damaging to any organization and could lead a team to remain in an eternal search for the cup because the mentality is that they are “never quite there”.  Although my perspective will make certain people cringe at the thought, I personally much prefer both as a fan, as well as being part of an organization, a mentality whereby “anything is possible” or “that’s why they play the games”. 
 

Tanking and defeatest mentalities may sometimes be “smarter” or “more accurate” but I feel as though the mentality can be detrimental to overall performance and would also take away from any enjoyment of watching the game by “knowing” a team won’t win for another 4-5 years. The problem with this is that we once again do not actually know (how many people said our team would make the finals when they did in Weber’s final year). The final issue is that as a fan it would be incredibly draining to watch seasons with such a negative mindset. May as well just wait 4 years to watch a game then. Not only that, but once the team misses their chance in the said 4 years. Well, now it’s once again time for that slow rebuild again. It’s the right thing to do!

 

/endrant

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On 9/22/2022 at 2:15 PM, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

They could finish near the bottom because they are just not good enough but they are not outright tanking, what Chicago is doing is tanking. I think tanking is the most misused term on this board but I am just repeating myself here. 

 

 

"Tanking in sports refers to the practice of intentionally fielding non-competitive teams to take advantage of league rules that benefit losing teams."

To me if you're out of the playoff picture by the all star break, your mind set as a gm should be getting the best odds at a top 10 pick. Not trying to make the playoffs, that you know you very well can't make. 

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I don’t believe the Habs are intentionally icing the worst team they can in order to maximize their lottery odds. If that’s tanking, we’re not doing it. Just look at the forward unit, which is actually quite strong, overall. Why keep that unit intact if the goal is to lose as hard as possible?

 

Chicago, by contrast, has shipped out young players who played a major role (Dach and DeBrincat) for no discernable reason other than to suck as hard as they can in order to get Bedard. Now that’s true tanking.

 

People confuse tanking with rebuilding. Rebuilding involves setting a timeline for a team to become competitive, and tries to maximize the likelihood of successfully realizing that target. Yes, this often means moving out veterans in favour of picks and prospects. But since you need some veterans around to mentor and role-model for the kids, and since (as I keep saying) you want to create an environment in which the kids can succeed and grow, that’s not interchangeable with fire-bombing your roster in a determined effort to grab the #1 pick.

 

The Habs will likely suck, not through a deliberate intent to suck, but as a consequence of their best players aging out and middle-aged players having been traded for prospects. Winning lots of games is not the goal; it’s a development year. But to say that losing is the goal? That’s a bridge too far IMHO.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I don’t believe the Habs are intentionally icing the worst team they can in order to maximize their lottery odds. If that’s tanking, we’re not doing it. Just look at the forward unit, which is actually quite strong, overall. Why keep that unit intact if the goal is to lose as hard as possible?

 

Chicago, by contrast, has shipped out young players who played a major role (Dach and DeBrincat) for no discernable reason other than to suck as hard as they can in order to get Bedard. Now that’s true tanking.

 

People confuse tanking with rebuilding. Rebuilding involves setting a timeline for a team to become competitive, and tries to maximize the likelihood of successfully realizing that target. Yes, this often means moving out veterans in favour of picks and prospects. But since you need some veterans around to mentor and role-model for the kids, and since (as I keep saying) you want to create an environment in which the kids can succeed and grow, that’s not interchangeable with fire-bombing your roster in a determined effort to grab the #1 pick.

 

The Habs will likely suck, not through a deliberate intent to suck, but as a consequence of their best players aging out and middle-aged players having been traded for prospects. Winning lots of games is not the goal; it’s a development year. But to say that losing is the goal? That’s a bridge too far IMHO.

 

 

 

I agree 100%. Tanking is putting a torch to the place like Chicago, Habs aren't doing that.  The difference between rebuilding and tanking can be subtle at times but there is a difference. 

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1 hour ago, Habsfan89 said:

To me if you're out of the playoff picture by the all star break, your mind set as a gm should be getting the best odds at a top 10 pick. Not trying to make the playoffs, that you know you very well can't make. 

 

I don't disagree at all. If you are out of the playoff picture then it's time to look forward, maximize the assets you have to put yourself in a better position moving forward. 

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1 hour ago, Habsfan89 said:

To me if you're out of the playoff picture by the all star break, your mind set as a gm should be getting the best odds at a top 10 pick. Not trying to make the playoffs, that you know you very well can't make. 

 

I’m not sure I even agree with this - at least not as you frame it. 

 

If we’re clearly out of the playoffs, then yes, we should be managing assets so as to ensure future success. But that is not interchangeable with “getting the best odds at a top 10 pick.” E.g., if the Habs are 21st overall and out of the playoff picture, the best way to maximize our draft odds for 2023 would be to trade Suzuki at the deadline. That this is obviously out of the question proves that the GM’s strategy shouldn’t be only (or even primarily) about maximizing draft position.

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