If #31 is done: should the Habs retire his number?

[GHT120]

20 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

I disagree... Price has been an average  goalie for most of his regular season play post Chris Kreider... (I HAVE NOT looked at his stats or other goalie stats to verify this claim)

 

But MB sold hope ... make the playoffs and anything can happen ... and once it did ... the "aura" of Price also sold hope ... in that way he helped preserve MB ... it was also an excuse in down years ... "except for Price's injury/off-year".

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

16 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I think he should get his number retired. It shouldn’t be immediate though.
 

The only guys that had their numbers retired right away were the Richard brothers, Believeau, and Lafleur. Dryden had to wait. Roy had to wait. Even other players that meant more to dynasty teams, and the history of the franchise like Robinson, Gainey, Savard, Cournoyer, boom boom, and Harvey had to wait a long time. Granted those guys had to wait a lot longer than they should have, but as good as Price was, I don’t think he should get his number retired right away. He shouldn’t have to wait as long as most of the habs did - that was ridiculous!  But I think it should be at least after he gets into that HOF.

 

I’m pleased you agree. It’s telling when an old-school dude like you says he should have his number retired.

 

There is no danger of retiring his number right away. Price will likely pull a Weber and limp along as a “non-retired retired” player until his contract expires, so we wouldn’t be able to retire his number until that happens at the earliest.

 

I agree, on a more general level, that the team should wait a decent interval to retire someone’s number. I’d say that between 5-10 years from the player’s last game is a respectful interval (e.g., Roy retired in ‘03 and we retired his number in ‘09: perfect). With Price, he has four years left on his deal; we could wait until about 2027, or, if we want it to coincide with a round number, wait until 2029 and the team’s 120th anniversary.

 

More than a 10-year wait starts to get odd. The wave of number-retirements in the 100th anniversary party was fun, but it also lowered the bar, as guys like Cournoyer, Gainey (all due respect), Moore, and - most bizarrely - Emile Bouchard suddenly and rather unexpectedly had their jerseys retired. Frankly, it’s hard to believe that some of these would have been sustainable as jersey retirement ceremonies separately from the general centennial hoopla.

 

If folks have to start Googling your career to see who you were as a player, because they can’t remember it, well, you’ve waited too long. 

[DON]

Dont have strong feeling one way or other.

Voted yes, but a weak one.

[alfredoh2009]

Emile Bouchard’s number retirement campaign was solid, for what I remember : he Mira than deserved the honour 

[GHT120]

22 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Emile Bouchard’s number retirement campaign was solid, for what I remember : he Mira than deserved the honour 

Agreed

15 years with the Habs

8 years as Habs captain

Inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1966.

Stanley Cup champion: 1944, 1946, 1953, 1956
NHL First All-Star Team: 1945, 1946, 1947
NHL Second All-Star Team: 1944

Stanley Cup champion: 1944, 1946, 1953, 1956
 

[Commandant]

Toe Blake is the most deserving of those who haven't been retired. 

 

Here is his resume.... 3 cups as a player (2 as a Hab, 1 as a Montreal Maroon)

1939 Hart Trophy

1939 Art Ross Trophy

1946 Lady Byng (first Hab to win this, one of only two who did it)

 

Scored the Stanley Cup winning goal in 1944 in Overtime. 
Was the LW on the best line in the NHL, Punch Line.
In 1945, the line finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd in NHL scoring... the second line to ever do that. 

 

3 Times a first team all-star (post season award as best LW in the NHL)

1 time, 2nd team all star (2nd best LW in the NHL). 

 

Named by the NHL as one of the top 100 players of the first 100 years of the league in 2017.  (66th)

 

Captain for 8 seasons.

 

Hockey Hall of Fame as a Player. 
Member of the Order of Canada.

 

Retired in 1948 after breaking his ankle in two places.... at the time of his retirement he was the second leading scorer in NHL history (21 points behind Bill Cowley). 
With 62 points in 58 games, he was the all time leading scorer in playoffs at the time of his retirement. 

 

Then his Coaching Career is either the best or 2nd best coach in Habs history.... 8 Stanley cups in 13 years as coach. 

 

As for what he means to the franchise, the mid to late 1930s were the WORST period of Habs history.  They are worse than anything Reggie Houle did.  Toe Blake emerged as the Hart/Art Ross winner for the Habs in 1939, 3 years before Rocket joined the team. He was the superstar who started pulling the team out of the NHL basement, and creating a 40 year period of excellence that the NHL (and almost no North American pro league) has seen.  His acquisition was the start of the road out of being a laughing stock and back to respectability and then he was part of the dominance as well.  He was part of Rocket's 50 in 50, as the LW on that line. He was a key part of the team as a mentor to Richard when he came up.

 

When the team stalled in their ascension, losing in cup finals two straight years in 54 and 55, he took over as coach, replacing Dick Irvin Sr. ... his first five years were five Stanley cups.  In 1955 there was the Richard Riot, this helped lead to Irvin being fired. Blake had been coaching in the farm system since his retirement. He was the ideal candidate to be the coach because he was someone Richard looked up to earlier in his career, and it was hoped Blake could control Richard's temper. 

 

He was also the coach when Jacques Plante first put on a mask, once again, he found himself at the centre of one of the biggest moments in NHL history.  

 

So he was right there, front and centre, for three absolutely game changing moments in NHL history, the 50 in 50, the riot, and Jacques Plante's mask.... 

 

#6 should go up to the rafters, and not for Shea Weber. 

 

He's got the numbers and he's got the narrative that is more than worthy

 

 

 

[GHT120]

25 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Toe Blake is the most deserving of those who haven't been retired. 

 

Here is his resume.... 3 cups as a player (2 as a Hab, 1 as a Montreal Maroon)

1939 Hart Trophy

1939 Art Ross Trophy

1946 Lady Byng (first Hab to win this, one of only two who did it)

 

Scored the Stanley Cup winning goal in 1944 in Overtime. 
Was the LW on the best line in the NHL, Punch Line.
In 1945, the line finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd in NHL scoring... the second line to ever do that. 

 

3 Times a first team all-star (post season award as best LW in the NHL)

1 time, 2nd team all star (2nd best LW in the NHL). 

 

Named by the NHL as one of the top 100 players of the first 100 years of the league in 2017.  (66th)

 

Captain for 8 seasons.

 

Hockey Hall of Fame as a Player. 
Member of the Order of Canada.

 

Retired in 1948 after breaking his ankle in two places.... at the time of his retirement he was the second leading scorer in NHL history (21 points behind Bill Cowley). 
With 62 points in 58 games, he was the all time leading scorer in playoffs at the time of his retirement. 

 

Then his Coaching Career is either the best or 2nd best coach in Habs history.... 8 Stanley cups in 13 years as coach. 

 

As for what he means to the franchise, the mid to late 1930s were the WORST period of Habs history.  They are worse than anything Reggie Houle did.  Toe Blake emerged as the Hart/Art Ross winner for the Habs in 1939, 3 years before Rocket joined the team. He was the superstar who started pulling the team out of the NHL basement, and creating a 40 year period of excellence that the NHL (and almost no North American pro league) has seen.  His acquisition was the start of the road out of being a laughing stock and back to respectability and then he was part of the dominance as well.  He was part of Rocket's 50 in 50, as the LW on that line. He was a key part of the team as a mentor to Richard when he came up.

 

When the team stalled in their ascension, losing in cup finals two straight years in 54 and 55, he took over as coach, replacing Dick Irvin Sr. ... his first five years were five Stanley cups.  In 1955 there was the Richard Riot, this helped lead to Irvin being fired. Blake had been coaching in the farm system since his retirement. He was the ideal candidate to be the coach because he was someone Richard looked up to earlier in his career, and it was hoped Irvin could control Richard's temper. 

 

He was also the coach when Jacques Plante first put on a mask, once again, he found himself at the centre of one of the biggest moments in NHL history.  

 

So he was right there, front and centre, for three absolutely game changing moments in NHL history, the 50 in 50, the riot, and Jacques Plante's mask.... 

 

#6 should go up to the rafters, and not for Shea Weber. 

 

He's got the numbers and he's got the narrative that is more than worthy

 

 

AGREED ... I've never understood his exclusion

[DON]

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

He's got the numbers and he's got the narrative that is more than worthy

Holy moly Ben.

Thanks for summary, i knew nothing of him, really, but the "name".

 

 

[BCHabnut]

18 hours ago, Commandant said:

Toe Blake is the most deserving of those who haven't been retired. 

 

Here is his resume.... 3 cups as a player (2 as a Hab, 1 as a Montreal Maroon)

1939 Hart Trophy

1939 Art Ross Trophy

1946 Lady Byng (first Hab to win this, one of only two who did it)

 

Scored the Stanley Cup winning goal in 1944 in Overtime. 
Was the LW on the best line in the NHL, Punch Line.
In 1945, the line finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd in NHL scoring... the second line to ever do that. 

 

3 Times a first team all-star (post season award as best LW in the NHL)

1 time, 2nd team all star (2nd best LW in the NHL). 

 

Named by the NHL as one of the top 100 players of the first 100 years of the league in 2017.  (66th)

 

Captain for 8 seasons.

 

Hockey Hall of Fame as a Player. 
Member of the Order of Canada.

 

Retired in 1948 after breaking his ankle in two places.... at the time of his retirement he was the second leading scorer in NHL history (21 points behind Bill Cowley). 
With 62 points in 58 games, he was the all time leading scorer in playoffs at the time of his retirement. 

 

Then his Coaching Career is either the best or 2nd best coach in Habs history.... 8 Stanley cups in 13 years as coach. 

 

As for what he means to the franchise, the mid to late 1930s were the WORST period of Habs history.  They are worse than anything Reggie Houle did.  Toe Blake emerged as the Hart/Art Ross winner for the Habs in 1939, 3 years before Rocket joined the team. He was the superstar who started pulling the team out of the NHL basement, and creating a 40 year period of excellence that the NHL (and almost no North American pro league) has seen.  His acquisition was the start of the road out of being a laughing stock and back to respectability and then he was part of the dominance as well.  He was part of Rocket's 50 in 50, as the LW on that line. He was a key part of the team as a mentor to Richard when he came up.

 

When the team stalled in their ascension, losing in cup finals two straight years in 54 and 55, he took over as coach, replacing Dick Irvin Sr. ... his first five years were five Stanley cups.  In 1955 there was the Richard Riot, this helped lead to Irvin being fired. Blake had been coaching in the farm system since his retirement. He was the ideal candidate to be the coach because he was someone Richard looked up to earlier in his career, and it was hoped Blake could control Richard's temper. 

 

He was also the coach when Jacques Plante first put on a mask, once again, he found himself at the centre of one of the biggest moments in NHL history.  

 

So he was right there, front and centre, for three absolutely game changing moments in NHL history, the 50 in 50, the riot, and Jacques Plante's mask.... 

 

#6 should go up to the rafters, and not for Shea Weber. 

 

He's got the numbers and he's got the narrative that is more than worthy

 

 

 

SOLD! Holy crap, that's some good work

[DON]

https://cheeringthelogo.ca/2022/08/25/alternative-option-to-jersey-retirement/

 

 

[GHT120]

1 hour ago, DON said:

https://cheeringthelogo.ca/2022/08/25/alternative-option-to-jersey-retirement/

 

 

It's a great idea

[johnnyhasbeen]

Not until Roy has his retired at the very least. 

[Commandant]

On 9/8/2022 at 4:28 PM, johnnyhasbeen said:

Not until Roy has his retired at the very least. 

 

Roy's number was retired years ago

[johnnyhasbeen]

3 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Roy's number was retired years ago. Old age plays tricks with my memory sometimes,,

oops lol, then yes

[GHT120]

I still propose that Price should be the first HOUNOURED number ... raised to the rafters on a white sweater (to distinguish from the retired numbers) and not soon re-issued ... or even when re-used, not "easily" ... but not retired ... I feel the days for that have passed ... I would propose 8 (Duff and Risebrough), 11 (Lambert and Koivu), 21 (Carbonneau), 22 (Shutt), 25 Lemaire and 79 (Markov) as additional candidates ... I would even wonder about Frank Mahovolich (27), his tenure was short but major contributor to two Cups.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

23 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

I still propose that Price should be the first HOUNOURED number ... raised to the rafters on a white sweater (to distinguish from the retired numbers) and not soon re-issued ... or even when re-used, not "easily" ... but not retired ... I feel the days for that have passed ... I would propose 8 (Duff and Risebrough), 11 (Lambert and Koivu), 21 (Carbonneau), 22 (Shutt), 25 Lemaire and 79 (Markov) as additional candidates ... I would even wonder about Frank Mahovolich (27), his tenure was short but major contributor to two Cups.

 

The Habs already have a ring of honour for lesser lights. Price is next level, significant above, all those names you enumerate IMHO.

[GHT120]

Just now, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

The Habs already have a ring of honour for lesser lights. Price is next level, significant above, all those names you enumerate IMHO.

 

 

Honoured Numbers raised to the rafters would (IMO) be a higher recognition than the Ring of Honour ... I just think it is time to stop retiring numbers in perpetuity.  

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

25 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

 

Honoured Numbers raised to the rafters would (IMO) be a higher recognition than the Ring of Honour ... I just think it is time to stop retiring numbers in perpetuity.  

 

I think I see your point, but I disagree in principle. How can anyone ever again wear #9? Or #10? Or #4? Or #29? Or #33? It would feel like sacrilege. 

 

On the other hand, it would not feel sacrilegious at all for someone to wear #3, #5, #12, #16, or #23. And this may be the root of the trouble - with the frenzy of jersey retirements in 2009, the Habs debased the currency somewhat. We moved from only retiring the numbers of players whose names evoke goosebumps, a frisson of legendary greatness, to including “merely” elite players who happened to be part of great teams. I do not see how Price does not belong in the same category as Moore, Cournoyer, Lach, or Lapointe, for instance. The only difference is he had the misfortune to play on sh*tty teams for 98% of his career.

 

In any case, the Habs have retired 14 numbers and Price would make it 15. That leaves 85 numbers still to go around. We are far from needing to abandon the practice IMHO. 

[GHT120]

16 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

... with the frenzy of jersey retirements in 2009, the Habs debased the currency somewhat. We moved from only retiring the numbers of players whose names evoke goosebumps, a frisson a legend and greatness, to including “merely” elite players who happened to be part of great teams ...

 

 

That captures exactly why I feel the retirement of numbers has IM-N-HO (😉) passed.

[tomh009]

10 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I do not see how Price does not belong in the same category as Moore, Cournoyer, Lach, or Lapointe, for instance. The only difference is he had the misfortune to play on sh*tty teams for 98% of his career

Moore? 12 years on the Habs, two Art Ross trophies (one of them with his wrist in a cast), twice first-team all star, six Cups, HoF, an all-time points record that stood for seven years.  Sorry, I think Moore very much deserved to have his number retired.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

35 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Moore? 12 years on the Habs, two Art Ross trophies (one of them with his wrist in a cast), twice first-team all star, six Cups, HoF, an all-time points record that stood for seven years.  Sorry, I think Moore very much deserved to have his number retired.

 

Price’s resume is analogous to Moore’s, minus the Cups. 15 seasons on the Habs, Hart Trophy, Olympic gold medal, Vézina, Lindsay, Masterton trophies, most W and GP of any goalie in team history. My point was not to slag Moore but to suggest that Price is comfortably at that level.

 

That being said, there arguably *are* tiers in the retired jerseys. There is a core of players that are absolutely at the heart of the mystique of the Montreal Canadiens:

 

Richard

Beliveau

Lafleur

 

Then there are second tier guys, who are still all-time great legends whose names carry a special aura:

 

Morenz (I would put him in the top tier, but I doubt that would be a consensus view)

Harvey

Plante

H. Richard

Savard?

Robinson

Dryden 

Roy

 

And then there are third tier guys

 

Moore

Lach

Bouchard

Cournoyer

Boom Boom

Gainey

Lapointe

 

We can argue about who goes in which slot, but I do feel the “tier” concept holds up. This is not to disrespect any of these players. All were wonderful players and stars in their time. But Rocket Richard and Guy Lapointe are simply not on the same level, sorry.

 

Price fits very comfortably in that third tier - the player who meant more to the organization than any other of the past 30 years, who took them to the Finals for the first time in 28 years, and who was at the very top of his position, or close to it. for a decade. 

 

 

[alfredoh2009]

49 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Price’s resume is analogous to Moore’s, minus the Cups. 15 seasons on the Habs, Hart Trophy, Olympic gold medal, Vézina, Lindsay, Masterton trophies, most W and GP of any goalie in team history. My point was not to slag Moore but to suggest that Price is comfortably at that level.

 

That being said, there arguably *are* tiers in the retired jerseys. There is a core of players that are absolutely at the heart of the mystique of the Montreal Canadiens:

 

Richard

Beliveau

Lafleur

 

Then there are second tier guys, who are still all-time great legends whose names carry a special aura:

 

Morenz (I would put him in the top tier, but I doubt that would be a consensus view)

Harvey

Plante

H. Richard

Savard?

Robinson

Dryden 

Roy

 

And then there are third tier guys

 

Moore

Lach

Bouchard

Cournoyer

Boom Boom

Gainey

Lapointe

 

We can argue about who goes in which slot, but I do feel the “tier” concept holds up. This is not to disrespect any of these players. All were wonderful players and stars in their time. But Rocket Richard and Guy Lapointe are simply not on the same level, sorry.

 

Price fits very comfortably in that third tier - the player who meant more to the organization than any other of the past 30 years, who took them to the Finals for the first time in 28 years, and who was at the very top of his position, or close to it. for a decade. 

 

 

100% agreed, good post

[hab29RETIRED]

2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Price’s resume is analogous to Moore’s, minus the Cups. 15 seasons on the Habs, Hart Trophy, Olympic gold medal, Vézina, Lindsay, Masterton trophies, most W and GP of any goalie in team history. My point was not to slag Moore but to suggest that Price is comfortably at that level.

 

That being said, there arguably *are* tiers in the retired jerseys. There is a core of players that are absolutely at the heart of the mystique of the Montreal Canadiens:

 

Richard

Beliveau

Lafleur

 

Then there are second tier guys, who are still all-time great legends whose names carry a special aura:

 

Morenz (I would put him in the top tier, but I doubt that would be a consensus view)

Harvey

Plante

H. Richard

Savard?

Robinson

Dryden 

Roy

 

And then there are third tier guys

 

Moore

Lach

Bouchard

Cournoyer

Boom Boom

Gainey

Lapointe

 

We can argue about who goes in which slot, but I do feel the “tier” concept holds up. This is not to disrespect any of these players. All were wonderful players and stars in their time. But Rocket Richard and Guy Lapointe are simply not on the same level, sorry.

 

Price fits very comfortably in that third tier - the player who meant more to the organization than any other of the past 30 years, who took them to the Finals for the first time in 28 years, and who was at the very top of his position, or close to it. for a decade. 

 

 

I get your reasoning, but Gainey win a conn Smythe, the Selke trophy was created because of him. Aside having one of the highest Stanley cup totals, and being a captain,  Cournoyer played in one of the greatest series ever - IMO that was a much more impactful series than the olympics that Price played in. It would have been a different situation to compare Price’s gold medal if he had been on a team like the 1980 Olympic team. 
 

the pocket has more cups than anyone. Was a captain. Moore, ditto. Lapointe also was the third piece of the greatest defence ever and was good enough to be in the 72’ Canada-Russia series. I’d retire the number of all of these guys before Price.

 

i get we have to have a higher standard, but that’s why Markov and Koivu shouldn’t get their numbers retired. I’d personally retire Price’s number, but to exclude the others just because we had two major dynasties and they were fortunate enough to play for those dynasties doesn’t make sense to me. We don’t win those cups without those guys.

 

They were all major cogs. I don’t think any of them dilute the value of having a number retired. Sure we have a lot of numbers retired than other teams, but we also have a hell of a lot more Stanley cups than any other team.  No other tram had two dynasties that won 9 consecutive cups between them. Hell, if Claude Lemieux wasn’t given away for mrs. sylvie Turgeon, and he was around for the 93 cup team, I’d argue that he should also have his number retired. I do think he belongs in the HOF.

 

i get that Richard, Believeau, and Lafleur have special status. But I’d argue that if Doug Harvey and Larry Robinson were Québécois, they would be just as revered as those three.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

7 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I get your reasoning, but Gainey win a conn Smythe, the Selke trophy was created because of him. Aside having one of the highest Stanley cup totals, and being a captain,  Cournoyer played in one of the greatest series ever - IMO that was a much more impactful series than the olympics that Price played in. It would have been a different situation to compare Price’s gold medal if he had been on a team like the 1980 Olympic team. 
 

the pocket has more cups than anyone. Was a captain. Moore, ditto. Lapointe also was the third piece of the greatest defence ever and was good enough to be in the 72’ Canada-Russia series. I’d retire the number of all of these guys before Price.

 

i get we have to have a higher standard, but that’s why Markov and Koivu shouldn’t get their numbers retired. I’d personally retire Price’s number, but to exclude the others just because we had two major dynasties and they were fortunate enough to play for those dynasties doesn’t make sense to me. We don’t win those cups without those guys.

 

They were all major cogs. I don’t think any of them dilute the value of having a number retired. Sure we have a lot of numbers retired than other teams, but we also have a hell of a lot more Stanley cups than any other team.  No other tram had two dynasties that won 9 consecutive cups between them. Hell, if Claude Lemieux wasn’t given away for mrs. sylvie Turgeon, and he was around for the 93 cup team, I’d argue that he should also have his number retired. I do think he belongs in the HOF.

 

i get that Richard, Believeau, and Lafleur have special status. But I’d argue that if Doug Harvey and Larry Robinson were Québécois, they would be just as revered as those three.

 

I wasn’t arguing against those guys’ numbers being retired. I mean, admittedly, if it were up to me, most of those “third tier” players would not be up there - but they are. That is now the standard. Price belongs to it. And maybe it’s a good thing we opened things up a bit, because if we stick only to the top tiers, we’re looking at maybe 1-2 jersey retirements for the rest of the century, assuming the Habs manage to finally draft a Cup-winning superstar at some point.

 

Markov and Koivu were absolutely not jersey-retirement candidates - and I say this as a guy who rates Koivu as one of his all-time favourite players. They were fine players but not at the top end of their position in the league, nor did they win individual awards, nor did they have deep playoff runs. Their c.v.s compare in no way to Price’s; he is next level to any Hab of the past 30 years.

 

 

 

 

[GHT120]

21 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

... I do not see how Price does not belong in the same category as Moore, Cournoyer, Lach, or Lapointe, for instance. The only difference is he had the misfortune to play on sh*tty teams for 98% of his career ...

 

 

Forgot to address this ... it would not be a decision not to retire Price's number, it would be a decision not to retire any more numbers period ... I would suggest that players have to have been retired for a fixed number of seasons before being honoured (I would say 3-5) ... and if we don't want to totally eliminate the retirement of numbers then allow for that possibility 10-15 years after the number has been honoured ... it would make the decision to retire numbers less "emotional" ... if 13-20 years (using my suggested time frames) after a players' retirement (not restricted to Price) they are still considered worthy of having their number retired that would in indicate to me that they are at very least "Tier 2 Greats", and maybe even amongst the Elite Greats ... BTW, I would make that trio a quartet and include Morenz.