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Observations between Guhle & Slafkovsky & Kotkaniemi


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We all play armchair quarterback at times so even though it's only a few days into the regular season there's no harm doing what this site is here for, sharing opinions and thoughts about our team.

 

My premise is that I wonder and probably feel that as much as I like Juraj Slavkovsky he may be better off in another league for at least part or most of this season.

 

Two recent examples are Jesperi Kotkaniemi and Kaiden Guhle. In hindsight I'm guessing that the majority of us feel like KK would have developed and done much better if we had not brought him into the NHL when he was 18. I remember listening to Gord Miller expressing and giving examples of other 18 year olds who developed and did much better by not playing in the NHL at 18 but were sent back (somewhere) and had another year to develop. Miller felt very strongly that KK belonged somewhere other than the NHL at 18. I don't remember the names but he gave some good examples of players who were developed properly and had a much better beginning to their NHL career because of that extra year of development when they were 18.

 

Kaiden Guhle is a good current example. He may have been able to play in the NHL last year but look at how far he progressed this past year and look at how he appears now. Granted it's still early and he could struggle, but if does struggle this year imagine what he would likely have gone through if we had kept him last year. 

 

KK is the other obvious example. If he had of been returned to Europe and allowed to develop further I think his body strength and skills would have made his NHL debut and his first year much easier and while nobody knows, perhaps he would still be with us today. 

 

I think Juraj Slavkovsky is much further along than KK was at 18, just in size and strength alone, but he's still just 18.  I see him getting knocked down a lot, reminds me of KK a bit in that regard, and because we know this year is a development year, why not let JS develop somewhere out of the spotlight so that next year at 19 he can have a much better opportunity to be the type of longterm NHL player he and all of us want him to be. 

 

It's early, we've seen the rookie tournament and pre-season, and just 1 pre-season game but this armchair quarterback thinks JS should have another year of development somewhere other than the NHL.

 

What do you think?? 

 

 

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Every person is different so there is no guarantee that what works for A works for B and C as well. But I agree that the probabilities for successful development are much better if they get more ice time and more opportunities, whether in Europe, AHL or CHL.

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you bring up KK while discussing Guhle and what maybe the future for Slafkovsky

 

🤔

I was thinking on how Dach made me think of the level/lack of development Kotkaniemi would have reached if he had stayed with the Habs.

🤔

 

then, thinking about Guhle vs Slafkovski. I do not know what Hugh-Gort may plan to do. If I believe what he they have been saying for month, it is just a big surprise to me Slafkovsky is still in Montreal: they are not walking the talk... or, to say differently, their cooking doesn't match the eating of the pudding

 

Dach = Kotkaniemi : stalled development due to rushing to NHL ?

 

Guhle vs Slafkovski: Slaf should be in Laval playing top minutes and developing like Guhle did

 

 

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While this is not to say that the proper development of a player is not important, I don’t believe it to be a big factor in this context.

 

Svechnikov, Dahlin and Tkachuk all jumped right into the league and have demonstrated that they can be influential players on their respective teams. Barett Hayton and Filip Zadina went down to the minors and have still yet to find any more production than KK. What did development do for them that KK didn’t receive?

 

If you want to talk about their statistical output, then I think one could question whether or not KK was the best pick available at that time, rather than whether or not he would be a better player in the now had he been sent down for a year. Perhaps he should have been sent down simply because he wasn’t actually a 3rd overall pick, and most of the lower picks in that draft did spend some time in the minors.

 

As was stated by Tom, every player is different.  There is not necessarily a relation between the two players. 
 

Juraj is a 1st overall. The only relation I would see is if this draft was indeed so weak, or Juraj was the wrong pick.


I do not know an extreme amount about Juraj but I think the play is the normal one. Give him a shot for the first few games of the season and see how he fits into the lineup. I actually trust that the organization will make the right decision, and I believe it will partially be based on his performance in these first nine games. I am perfectly fine with him staying up if he deserves it. 

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Juraj was a boom or bust pick. We can all see the tantalizing skillset and physical package, but he's also clearly very raw and is lacking a bit in hockey sense. Thank god we finally have a modern coaching staff and developmental system in place - if he doesn't pan out, I don't think it will be because of organizational malpractice. I think we'll send him to Laval if that's what's best for his development, and my prediction is that he'll spend at least a couple months there if not most of the season. We won't know for sure what type of player we drafted until a few years down the road, but my hope is that he's a stud power forward scoring 30+ while dominating 5v5!

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To your point, back when Galchenyuk was in his rookie season I remember a statement made by the commentator, I forget who it was, of a game I was watching about Galchenyuk.  Pacioretty was playing for Montreal then.  The commentator said Montreal should do with Galchenyuk what they did to Pacioretty.  Instead of playing him in the NHL and hope he develops, he should be sent down until he can dominate the AHL before he gets called up to the NHL full-time. 

 

That comment always stuck with me.  It slows the path to the NHL, but gives players time to get comfortable at the level they should be playing, rather that the level the team needs them to be at right away.

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4 hours ago, TurdBurglar said:

To your point, back when Galchenyuk was in his rookie season I remember a statement made by the commentator, I forget who it was, of a game I was watching about Galchenyuk.  Pacioretty was playing for Montreal then.  The commentator said Montreal should do with Galchenyuk what they did to Pacioretty.  Instead of playing him in the NHL and hope he develops, he should be sent down until he can dominate the AHL before he gets called up to the NHL full-time. 

 

That comment always stuck with me.  It slows the path to the NHL, but gives players time to get comfortable at the level they should be playing, rather that the level the team needs them to be at right away.

 

I know it was a different time, pre-cap and all, but back when the Wings were an elite team we used to hear over and over again how they let their youngsters marinade in the minors until they were good and ready. The result was they could plug and play kids and have them be strong off the hop and develop well. Analysts used to routinely praise them for this.

 

The dynasty Habs were much the same. Strong teams do that, because they don’t *need* the kids to fill roster spots. It’s part of how you get in a virtuous cycle of being strong in the big league and having good development patterns at the same time.

 

I just don’t see how AHL time hurts a player. Learn to be a pro, learn to be a responsible independent adult, learn to dominate in a comparatively low-pressure, less insanely competitive setting.

 

By contrast, being brought up too early does seem like it can mess a kid up: either through instilling an attitude of entitlement, or through getting limited minutes in a checking role during key development years, or through ruining the kid’s confidence and acclimating him to mediocrity. 

 

I heard Ferraro this afternoon commenting that it’s not good, developmentally, to have too many kids all the same age and all trying to figure it out at the same time. He wasn’t talking about the Habs specifically, but I had to wince, because that’s exactly what the Habs are doing this season, at least on D.

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34 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

... I just don’t see how AHL time hurts a player. Learn to be a pro, learn to be a responsible independent adult, learn to dominate in a comparatively low-pressure, less insanely competitive setting.

 

By contrast, being brought up too early does seem like it can mess a kid up: either through instilling an attitude of entitlement, or through getting limited minutes in a checking role during key development years, or through ruining the kid’s confidence and acclimating him to mediocrity. 

 

I heard Ferraro this afternoon commenting that it’s not good, developmentally, to have too many kids all the same age and all trying to figure it out at the same time. He wasn’t talking about the Habs specifically, but I had to wince, because that’s exactly what the Habs are doing this season, at least on D.

 

 

Not certain it was THE PLAN for this season ... but with two veterans out there is little option until Matheson (out for a couple of months) and/or Edmundson (not confident he is close) return ... IMO they need to find a other veteran in the near future ... unless there is a surprise on waivers in the next couple of weeks, it may mean a trade ... but not certain what they have to trade to get one ... Evans seems like the most likely trade-bait ... not going to get anything for the guys we would all want to trade ... Thomas Hickey (19:28 with NYI last season, released from a PTO last week) and Danny DeKeyser (18:30 with Detroit last season, released from PTO last week) are unsigned free agents ...
*** I *** have no interest in the "retired one" (PK Subban).

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  • tomh009 changed the title to Observations between Guhle & Slafkovsky & Kotkaniemi
1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

I kind of feel the same way. The developmental mistakes made with KK have been discussed here ad nauseam, we have a new administration who are well aware of what happened before so I don't think the same mistakes will be repeated.  

 

The concern is valid, though, if we see the new group doing the same as the old group. Which does seem to be the case. 

 

I say “concern,” not panic or outrage. But personally I’m uneasy with the way we are throwing key prospects into big roles so quickly in their careers, although admittedly injuries are playing a big part on the back end, as GHT120 rightly notes.

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I find it funny how a lot of people say send Slaf to the AHL because for the Habs their AHL team isn't exactly sending him anywhere in that sense.  i.e. Laval is a subburb of Montreal.  Therefore, sending Slaf to the AHL will by no means be away from the hype or pressure of Montreal.  If Slaf plays in Laval then their ticket sales will be much higher with most people in the stands wearing #20 Habs jerseys.

 

If Slaf doesnt play NHL would it not make more sense so send him to Europe to develop?  Thats what most teams do with Euro players.  ex:  the Wings, they didn't develop Zetterburg or Datsuk in the AHL, they played in EU.  The majority of elite Euro players got that way by playing in Europe. 

 

The IIHF have done numerous studies and have found that Euro players do better the longer they remain in Europe.

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10 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

If Slaf doesnt play NHL would it not make more sense so send him to Europe to develop?  Thats what most teams do with Euro players.  ex:  the Wings, they didn't develop Zetterburg or Datsuk in the AHL, they played in EU.  The majority of elite Euro players got that way by playing in Europe.

 

The Habs lose control over his development if they send him back to Finland.  In Laval, they can manage his minutes and instruct the coaching staff to use him in certain situations.  If he goes back to his team from last year, they're under no obligation to do any of that; they'll use him the way they want to even if it runs against what the Habs want.  By putting him in Laval, they can also recall him if they need/want to whereas they can't if he goes back overseas.

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11 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

I find it funny how a lot of people say send Slaf to the AHL because for the Habs their AHL team isn't exactly sending him anywhere in that sense.  i.e. Laval is a subburb of Montreal.  Therefore, sending Slaf to the AHL will by no means be away from the hype or pressure of Montreal.  If Slaf plays in Laval then their ticket sales will be much higher with most people in the stands wearing #20 Habs jerseys.

 

If Slaf doesnt play NHL would it not make more sense so send him to Europe to develop?  Thats what most teams do with Euro players.  ex:  the Wings, they didn't develop Zetterburg or Datsuk in the AHL, they played in EU.  The majority of elite Euro players got that way by playing in Europe. 

 

The IIHF have done numerous studies and have found that Euro players do better the longer they remain in Europe.

 

If Slaf is in the AHL, he may still have “pressure” in some sense, but he will learn to be the top player on a team and how to cope with all situations against a lower-level of competition. And I don’t believe that the pressure of Laval is anything like that of the Habs. Let him learn how to become a horse who carries the team on his back, then come up and figure out how to do it here. 

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1 hour ago, dlbalr said:

 

The Habs lose control over his development if they send him back to Finland.  In Laval, they can manage his minutes and instruct the coaching staff to use him in certain situations.  If he goes back to his team from last year, they're under no obligation to do any of that; they'll use him the way they want to even if it runs against what the Habs want.  By putting him in Laval, they can also recall him if they need/want to whereas they can't if he goes back overseas.

I'd also add that given his size... He may better learn to use that advantage in the AHL than the bigger Euro rinks.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm not the only 1 who thinks that if Slaf isn't in the NHL then he should be in Europe.  TSN's Director of Scouting agrees:

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/what-s-the-big-picture-plan-for-slafkovsky-this-season~2551423

 

Also, Button suggests that the Habs would be able to recall him.  I liked that he quoted Hughes regarding not drafting the best player today but the best in 2-4 years from now.  

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43 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

Also, Button suggests that the Habs would be able to recall him.  I liked that he quoted Hughes regarding not drafting the best player today but the best in 2-4 years from now.  

 

From a practicality standpoint, recalling someone from Europe is tricky and it's not the type of move teams like to make. 

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