GDT Game #41 - Team Tank v.s. Seattle Kraken

[hab29RETIRED]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Hmmm. Sounds like the bloom is coming off the MSL rose among the francophone commentariat.

 

 

Signs of life by Slaf are important. If he can grind his way out of his torpor and start actually doing something useful out there, it would offer a bit of reassurance that the Habs’ approach of throwing him in the deep end is actually working (or at least not actively harming his development).

They’ll probably start complaining that he’d be a better coach if he was residing in Quebec before getting hired, and the habs need to start hiring Francophone coaches residing in Quebec🙄

 

I don’t know why there is surprise at how the team is playing. You have 4 to 5 rookies on D. We are going to live with their growing pains. Coaching isnt gong to make them more experienced!!

We also have a bunch of high paid bums and washed out wingers, and no second line centre.

 

the important thing is the development of the kids - which I think is going fine, and in some cases better than expected. The only misstep is that Slafkovsky should not have been kept past his 9th game. Not sure, but I don’t think that is on MSL. 

[alfredoh2009]

I don’t think the French factor

is a factor anymore

and I do not think coaching would have made them more experienced. But experienced coaching may have brought better ice time (shift) management, better structure or in-ice support and better

management of matchups 

[Commandant]

We all knew that this season was about development and not about wins and losses or making the playoffs before the year even began.  Pretty much all of those rookie defencemen are developping so I can't criticize coaching too much. 

 

In terms of development my only complaint is that Slaf should be in the AHL as well.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

23 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I don’t think the French factor

is a factor anymore

and I do not think coaching would have made them more experienced. But experienced coaching may have brought better ice time (shift) management, better structure or in-ice support and better

management of matchups 

 

The “French factor” is totally a factor - not sure what you mean. It remains unthinkable that the team have a non-French-speaking coach and a non-French-speaking GM. Of course, this doesn’t mean (and has never meant) that francophone coaches get a free ride from the media. Indeed, since their replacement is guaranteed to be French-speaking, there is no reason for the media to play pat-a-cake.

 

I think part of the logic in hiring MSL despite his inexperience was that we don’t care about wins this season anyway. So the team can afford to absorb his growing pains when it comes to in-game management. The assumption seems to be that he is excellent developmentally even if he has much to learn on the “bench management” side of things. By the time the team is ready to contend, presumably he will have either mastered those other facets of the job, or he will be canned.

 

 

[alfredoh2009]

41 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The “French factor” is totally a factor - not sure what you mean. It remains unthinkable that the team have a non-French-speaking coach and a non-French-speaking GM. Of course, this doesn’t mean (and has never meant) that francophone coaches get a free ride from the media. Indeed, since their replacement is guaranteed to be French-speaking, there is no reason for the media to play pat-a-cake.

 

I think part of the logic in hiring MSL despite his inexperience was that we don’t care about wins this season anyway. So the team can afford to absorb his growing pains when it comes to in-game management. The assumption seems to be that he is excellent developmentally even if he has much to learn on the “bench management” side of things. By the time the team is ready to contend, presumably he will have either mastered those other facets of the job, or he will be canned.

 

 

 

that is a lot of wishful thinking on the coach MSL will eventually be, but I agree with that view, not what I would have preferred

[tomh009]

1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I don’t think the French factor is a factor anymore and I do not think coaching would have made them more experienced. But experienced coaching may have brought better ice time (shift) management, better structure or in-ice support and better management of matchups 

We are developing the coaching, too.

[Habsfan89]

18 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

I think you're going to be disappointed as probably only one of those four actually move.  Two have no value and a Dvorak trade is easier in the summer than midseason.

 

 

He didn't look great in that period although he didn't exactly have a lot of help in his defence.

Drouin and Dadnov could get us a 4th-7th round pick in the draft at this point. Assets are assets. Will take a lower end pick for them than let them walk.

 

Or you can package them in a deal

 

Drouin + Monahan can get you  a even better return.

 

Dadonov + Edmunson  can get you  a good return also. 

 

Team's looking to add depth for a playoff run would love these types of guys on their team. 
 

Again this is just an example to give you an idea of how to get more value in a trade for Drouin and Dadonov then to just trade them by themselves. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

7 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Drouin and Dadnov could get us a 4th-7th round pick in the draft at this point. Assets are assets. Will take a lower end pick for them than let them walk.

 

Or you can package them in a deal

 

Drouin + Monahan can get you  a even better return.

 

Dadonov + Edmunson  can get you  a good return also. 

 

Team's looking to add depth for a playoff run would love these types of guys on their team. 
 

Again this is just an example to give you an idea of how to get more value in a trade for Drouin and Dadonov then to just trade them by themselves. 

 

I think that is very wishful thinking. I see Drouin as having zero value right now.  Packaging  him with someone else doesn't help as the other team still has to find the money to eat 50% of the contract.  I would love to be wrong on this. 

[Commandant]

7 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I think that is very wishful thinking. I see Drouin as having zero value right now.  Packaging  him with someone else doesn't help as the other team still has to find the money to eat 50% of the contract.  I would love to be wrong on this. 

 

I think you are right.  I think we make the trades we have a chance to make and will have to just hold drouin til he becomes UFA. 

[BCHabnut]

I'd say Drouin, Hoffman and Gallagher stay with the team until their contracts expire.

[Habsfan89]

37 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I think that is very wishful thinking. I see Drouin as having zero value right now.  Packaging  him with someone else doesn't help as the other team still has to find the money to eat 50% of the contract.  I would love to be wrong on this. 

Drouin on the top line has no value. But Drouin in a bottom 6 roll with no pressure on him has value as a depth guy on a playoff team. His contract will be at around 2.5mil at the deadline , he's a UFA at seasons end. One of those low risk high reward trades for a playoff team looking to add depth.   We can also eat around 1.5mil of that contract so the team taking him gets him for 500,000k.  Comes off the books at seasons end. 

[huzer]

12 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Drouin on the top line has no value. But Drouin in a bottom 6 roll with no pressure on him has value as a depth guy on a playoff team. His contract will be at around 2.5mil at the deadline , he's a UFA at seasons end. One of those low risk high reward trades for a playoff team looking to add depth.   We can also eat around 1.5mil of that contract so the team taking him gets him for 500,000k.  Comes off the books at seasons end. 

 

The Habs can only keep 50% max retention. 

[Habsfan89]

10 minutes ago, huzer said:

 

The Habs can only keep 50% max retention. 

Just using an example some here still think of Drouin as a top 6 guy which he isn't. You got to look at him as a depth bottom 6 guy, that's where he has value. Especially on a playoff team and especially out of Montreal with no pressure on him to carry a team. 
 

I just  pointing out that their is vaule for him, just  not high end type but low end picks can turn into a high end vaule . We shouldn't just let him walk away at seasons end and get nothing for him. 

[Prime Minister Koivu]

3 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Just using an example some here still think of Drouin as a top 6 guy which he isn't. You got to look at him as a depth bottom 6 guy, that's where he has value. Especially on a playoff team and especially out of Montreal with no pressure on him to carry a team. 
 

I just  pointing out that their is vaule for him, just  not high end type but low end picks can turn into a high end vaule . We shouldn't just let him walk away at seasons end and get nothing for him. 

IMO

 

Drouin brings us nothing at the deadline because nobody wants him, even for future considerations. 
 

Drouin either plays in Europe next year or perhaps gets a PTO in the NHL. 
 

His NHL career is likely over

[huzer]

3 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Just using an example some here still think of Drouin as a top 6 guy which he isn't. You got to look at him as a depth bottom 6 guy, that's where he has value. Especially on a playoff team and especially out of Montreal with no pressure on him to carry a team. 
 

I just  pointing out that their is vaule for him, just  not high end type but low end picks can turn into a high end vaule . We shouldn't just let him walk away at seasons end and get nothing for him. 

 

I fully believe that management will attempt to trade any and all pending UFAs at the deadline. I do not expect takers for Drouin or Dadonov. If Monahan can get healthy, I'm sure he'll be dealt.

 

Drouin has no value as a bottom 6er, as he brings no grit or secondary scoring or defense.

[tomh009]

We may be surprised by who will or will not be traded. Another team's GM will have his own vision of his needs and gaps, and how he might be able to address them. And someone on the Habs may be able to fit such a gap, even if we don't see it from our perspective.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 minute ago, tomh009 said:

We may be surprised by who will or will not be traded. Another team's GM will have his own vision of his needs and gaps, and how he might be able to address them. And someone on the Habs may be able to fit such a gap, even if we don't see it from our perspective.

 

That's true. If another GM happened to catch Dadonov's came against St. Louis they would have come away impressed. 

[GHT120]

2 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

... Or you can package them in a deal

Drouin + Monahan can get you  a even better return.

Dadonov + Edmunson  can get you a good return also. 

 

Teams looking to add Monahan or Edmundson are noy likely looking to add another body at the same time.

 

32 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

We may be surprised by who will or will not be traded.

 

That is almost always the case ... especially in the last 15-30 minutes as the assets a team was chasing start to come off the board.

[dlbalr]

3 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

Drouin on the top line has no value. But Drouin in a bottom 6 roll with no pressure on him has value as a depth guy on a playoff team. His contract will be at around 2.5mil at the deadline , he's a UFA at seasons end. One of those low risk high reward trades for a playoff team looking to add depth.   We can also eat around 1.5mil of that contract so the team taking him gets him for 500,000k.  Comes off the books at seasons end. 

 

Careful with mixing up your numbers as you jump from full-season AAV to prorated.  It's easier to stick with full-season.  The Habs can retain 50% to Drouin to bring him to $2.75M prorated.  That's the full-season AAV that's going to matter for teams, regardless of the fact that 80% of it will be paid.  A team needs to have $2.75M in full-season cap space to bring in Drouin at max retention.   I know where you're going with the other calculation but if you go with your $500K number, you can't compare it to full-season cap space, you have to look at the actual dollar figure of cap space of other teams.

 

At $2.75M (full-season), what makes him more valuable than a bunch of other bottom-six forwards with lower cap hits?  We're talking about an offensive player who hasn't scored a goal in a year and hasn't scored a power play goal since 2019.  He doesn't kill penalties.  What does he bring to the lineup of a playoff-bound team?  He doesn't bring anything to the lineup of a non-playoff team.

 

2 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

Just using an example some here still think of Drouin as a top 6 guy which he isn't. You got to look at him as a depth bottom 6 guy, that's where he has value. Especially on a playoff team and especially out of Montreal with no pressure on him to carry a team.

 

I don't think anyone on here thinks he's a top-six player anymore.  I'm not sure even he thinks he's a top-six player anymore.  And certainly no one thinks he's supposed to be carrying this team.

 

He's a mediocre fourth liner on a non-playoff team that's going nowhere fast.  There will be better depth players available.  More importantly, there will be cheaper depth players available and that's where Drouin's value tanks to zero.  Montreal can't get him below $2.75M (again, just using full-season AAV for simplicity).  Most depth guys make less than that even without needing retention.  Dadonov is basically in the same situation although if this line he's on now does well for a bit, there might be a taker for next to nothing.

 

But if that's all you're going to get - say a seventh-rounder for either of them - is that the best use of a retention slot?  Wouldn't it make more sense to be a third-party retainer on a move that gets you a better draft pick than that?  In that scenario, keep Drouin and Dadonov and rent out the retention slots for better assets.  If they can get a fourth-rounder for retaining 50% of 50% of someone else's contract, I'd rather see them do that than hope someone is desperate enough to pay a seventh for Dadonov or Drouin even though they technically would then lose those two for nothing. 

[Habsfan89]

47 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

Careful with mixing up your numbers as you jump from full-season AAV to prorated.  It's easier to stick with full-season.  The Habs can retain 50% to Drouin to bring him to $2.75M prorated.  That's the full-season AAV that's going to matter for teams, regardless of the fact that 80% of it will be paid.  A team needs to have $2.75M in full-season cap space to bring in Drouin at max retention.   I know where you're going with the other calculation but if you go with your $500K number, you can't compare it to full-season cap space, you have to look at the actual dollar figure of cap space of other teams.

 

At $2.75M (full-season), what makes him more valuable than a bunch of other bottom-six forwards with lower cap hits?  We're talking about an offensive player who hasn't scored a goal in a year and hasn't scored a power play goal since 2019.  He doesn't kill penalties.  What does he bring to the lineup of a playoff-bound team?  He doesn't bring anything to the lineup of a non-playoff team.

 

 

I don't think anyone on here thinks he's a top-six player anymore.  I'm not sure even he thinks he's a top-six player anymore.  And certainly no one thinks he's supposed to be carrying this team.

 

He's a mediocre fourth liner on a non-playoff team that's going nowhere fast.  There will be better depth players available.  More importantly, there will be cheaper depth players available and that's where Drouin's value tanks to zero.  Montreal can't get him below $2.75M (again, just using full-season AAV for simplicity).  Most depth guys make less than that even without needing retention.  Dadonov is basically in the same situation although if this line he's on now does well for a bit, there might be a taker for next to nothing.

 

But if that's all you're going to get - say a seventh-rounder for either of them - is that the best use of a retention slot?  Wouldn't it make more sense to be a third-party retainer on a move that gets you a better draft pick than that?  In that scenario, keep Drouin and Dadonov and rent out the retention slots for better assets.  If they can get a fourth-rounder for retaining 50% of 50% of someone else's contract, I'd rather see them do that than hope someone is desperate enough to pay a seventh for Dadonov or Drouin even though they technically would then lose those two for nothing. 

Bergevin would give us a 1st for Drouin 😎